Aller au contenu

Photo

Would a hard reboot of the franchise be such a bad thing?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
736 réponses à ce sujet

#226
Sanunes

Sanunes
  • Members
  • 4 380 messages

I thought Shepard's death, the adventure to Andromeda, a jet pack and a new mako IS THE REBOOT of the franchise. I guess I'm such a simpleton to believe that these are all that's needed to indicate the new and improved franchise. Silly me.

 

I am thinking the problem with some of the discussion is that reboot had different meanings to different people.

 

For me personally I think of Andromeda is more of a spin-off then anything else, looking a the television procedural such as the DC universe (Arrow, Flash, Heroes of Tomorrow, Super Girl) where what has happened can be referenced and built upon would not be a reboot.  To reboot a franchise for me they have to ignore what happened before it such as Spider-Man 3 > Amazing Spider-Man (Not sure about the approach they are taking for Spider-Man: Homecoming).


  • AlanC9, wright1978, Grieving Natashina et 2 autres aiment ceci

#227
BatarianBob

BatarianBob
  • Members
  • 585 messages

I thought 'the new franchise' and ME:A are two different things.

 

If nobody noticed a new franchise T-shirt, it must look like the same ol', same ol'....  Or, hardcore gamers are brain dead (which one can make a legitimate argument for - they have no peripheral vision). :D  Thankfully, casual-level players have a higher IQ. WE would have noticed.

He wore this t-shirt at a game developers conference.  The attendees were, by and large, game developers, not gamers.

 

Why he thought competitors would give him free advertising, even if they had bothered to notice, is anyone's guess..


  • Khrystyn aime ceci

#228
The Elder King

The Elder King
  • Members
  • 19 630 messages

There is hope we may see the Anderfels in a future game.  What are the odds we'll ever see Khar'Shan?  Does being Rivaini mean anything if there is no more Rivain?  What good is having all this lore if it's only to be revealed in the past tense?
 

I didn't even know there was a krogan in the trailer until it was pointed out to me.

A rivaini is such based in his/her culture, beliefs. I don't see why those things couldn't remain if they move to another place. The various societies and beliefs of the asari, salarians, turians, etc. can still sustain in Andromeda.
I didn't mean that everyone should have recognized the krogan in the trailer. But you did say that you need to look at the trailer in slow motion to recognized it, while people did see it normally.
  • Il Divo, blahblahblah et UpUpAway aiment ceci

#229
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

Not just a bone- there's a subtext that it's basically the equivalent of the Council ignoring the problem. Spectres are independent and without support? Sure. Right. And just so coincidentally, if the Alliance doesn't pick up the tab and do the searching themselves- like they would have to otherwise- then the Council can simply blame the Alliance and Human Specter.

Heck, the Council is even vague on punishing Saren if he is found and caught. There's concern, but the subtext with Garrus is that if you actually caught Saren alive, he might be deemed to valuable to loose and escape the noose. Hence why you can have a Renegade resolve to ensure it doesn't come to that.

Spectre status was always a weak joke in Mass Effect. It was supposed to put Spectres above the law, but it only applies where the Council already has primacy and can use the laws to it's will. We Spectres work almost exclusively where it has no pull- the Terminus, or the criminal underworld- and even where it does, the very thing that it's supposed to allow- public violence and breaking the laws- are still limiters. Tela Vasir still has to hide her involvement in a terrorist attack. Saren still loses his status on an accusation and weak evidence. Shepard still ends up in jail.

The best use of Spectre status wouldn't be for run-and-gun types like Shepard. The type of foes they go after are the ones where Specter status is irrelevant. No, the best specter would be a Volus who fights white collar crime, and uses the specter status to cut through red tape.



I'll point out, though, that ME:A could easily still have Specters if it wanted. Simply call them the sanctioned agents of the Arc Council- which, hey, offers us an easy way to have a Council leadership authority even without the Citadel. It was always the collaborative relationship of authorities behind the government, not the location, that made the Council the Council and Specters their agents.

Similarly, the Shadow Broker can still exist. Unless you exclusively define the Shadow Broker as either That Yhag or Liara T'soni, someone setting up their own spy ring and calling themselves the Shadow Broker is really all it ever took. The old broker's network went the way of the old galaxy- even staying in the Milky Way post-ME3 wouldn't keep it from being sundered with the relay- so a ground-up recreation would always be appropriate if it was going to continue.

And, of course, our own Council- composed as racial representatives of all the major Arc races, aligned for common cause in the galaxy but with differing needs and perspectives and whose authority is limited outside of those boundaries. The Arc Council certainly won't be the dominant force in the galaxy- but any rump council of post-ME3 wouldn't either with the collapse of the relays. Our Council being the little fish in a bigger pond is perfectly suitable and consistent with the themes of the Council when you recal that the Council hadn't even looked at 99% of their original galaxy. A Council wouldn't be the Council only if you persist that the Mass Effect Council must be defined as Asari/Turian/Salarian/Human and no other races (which, after the Reaper War, was almost certainly doomed to change- the Asari deceit, the rise of the Quarians/Geth, the Krogan- or that the Council has to be the dominant galactic power- which failed to be applied or relevant in ME2, and ended in ME3.

Depending on how the Arc comes about, we can have some familiar corporate names or influences as contributers to the Arc project if we wanted and thought it was that important. Founding backers like Binary-Helix, or security firms like Eclipse- who even now have offices and offer employment or services to members of the Arc with offices on the Arc and looking to expand in the new galaxy with knowledge taken from the old. These wouldn't be the offices back in the Milky Way- which we didn't exactly see or tour either- but these would be their offices and names all the same, changed for the changing context. If Exo-Geni isn't Exo-Geni because you define Exo-Geni as something that only existed in shop menues in the Milky Way, I'd raise an eyebrow at that definition.

The carrying of myths and culture, even if not organizations and governments, can allow for familiar things to find new life in a new context. Self-styled Asari Justicar vigilantes- because surely it's the idea of a perfect Code, and not the institution, they derive legitimacy from- challenged by context or the realities of moral imperfection. Self-styled STG, separated by who knows how many generations from the genuine STG, raising the questions of how a institution maintains legitimacy from an identity over time. A human cabal, hidden in the system where 'Human Interests' are in constant collaboration and cooperation, which holds a label that surpasses the longevity of the Nazis.

Many of these things can come over, if we wanted. Maybe we don't- maybe some things should end, whether they be left behind or allowed to die in the Milky Way. And maybe these things aren't so important after all to the Mass Effect experience. Eclipse was a mercenary firm will little lore and existed as people to be killed who primarily existed in one game. Are they really that important to Mass Effect, that Mass Effect was less of a Mass Effect because the first game didn't even have them at all?

Yes, things will change- but the nature or form of organizations was always going to change after the Reaper War, unless your problem wasn't merely the endings but the sheer fact that the Reaper War was big enough to fundamentally change the status quo of the political and economic structures of the Council System.


The real absurdity about Spectres when you think about it is the absolute erasure of sovereignty the council demands. Let's say Saren wants to take out a high ranking human diplomat. Can he just walk and blow his brains out and wave his Spectre card? Always having a troope of people within your borders who are all foreign nationals and completely immune from your laws seems to be a serious issue.
  • Il Divo et blahblahblah aiment ceci

#230
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 769 messages

The real absurdity about Spectres when you think about it is the absolute erasure of sovereignty the council demands. Let's say Saren wants to take out a high ranking human diplomat. Can he just walk and blow his brains out and wave his Spectre card? Always having a troope of people within your borders who are all foreign nationals and completely immune from your laws seems to be a serious issue.

 

^I guess it's a bit like the 00 program that we see in the Bond films. Technically-speaking, you have the right to kill - so long as you don't abuse it, which we see Daniel Craig do on multiple occasions getting him into hot water. 

 

While Spectres are above the law, there probably are informal boundaries which Spectres wouldn't want to cross - without good reason. They still represent the Council as an organization and nominal immunity won't free them from all the consequences of their actions. 



#231
Arcian

Arcian
  • Members
  • 2 465 messages

Andromeda is a Mass Effect game and is a hard reboot of the franchise, imo.

No, Andromeda is not a "hard reboot" of the series, it's not even a soft reboot. It's a sequel with a different setting.

 

For the record, a hard reboot would mean redoing the original trilogy completely by making a NEW Mass Effect 1, 2 and 3 with the same basic skeleton of a story (the Reapers are coming, Shepard has to stop them) but many of the details being different to varying degrees, for example the Crucible design being encountered in ME1 instead of ME3 to make it seem like less of a Deus Ex Machina.


  • The Elder King et Grieving Natashina aiment ceci

#232
Arcian

Arcian
  • Members
  • 2 465 messages

Andromeda essentially IS a reboot already.

It is not. A reboot would redo the original trilogy with the same characters, same basic plot structure and somewhat to completely different plot details.


  • The Elder King, Shinobu et Grieving Natashina aiment ceci

#233
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 318 messages

Because past lore has the ability to impact future stories? Bioware may be scrapping the Milky Way, but that doesn't serve to exclude any of those elements from potentially being relevant. Krogans can still hate Turians, referencing the deployment of the genophage. Asari can reference the irony of being fish out of water, after a millenia of being the most important Council race, and how that alters their perspective. We can have a make-shift Spectre force for the population of the Ark.  

 

Like anything else, past stories inform present stories. Considering the entire population (and technology) we're bringing to Andromeda consists of species which inhabited the Milky Way for their entire lives, the idea that all the lore is simply going out the window  is questionable. 

But the reasons krogans hate the turians is gone.  There is no Tuchanka, no Palaven, no Council.  Heck there may be no genophage anymore (because choice matters SO MUCH!)  The asari being one of the older races is pointless.  All the races are quarians now.

 

The past isn't informing this story.  This isn't building on the past, it's running away from it.  It's running away from everything about the trilogy.  I didn't even see a mass relay in that trailer, and that's been as much the symbol of the franchise as the blood dragon has been for Dragon Age.



#234
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 318 messages

A rivaini is such based in his/her culture, beliefs. I don't see why those things couldn't remain if they move to another place. The various societies and beliefs of the asari, salarians, turians, etc. can still sustain in Andromeda.
 

And how much of that is based on having a home?  If everyone is packed into an Ark, cut off from their civilizations and other cultural touchstones, what are the odds that everything and everyone will basically go the way of the quarians?  Space vagabonds going "Keelah se'lai!"



#235
UpUpAway

UpUpAway
  • Members
  • 1 211 messages

And how much of that is based on having a home?  If everyone is packed into an Ark, cut off from their civilizations and other cultural touchstones, what are the odds that everything and everyone will basically go the way of the quarians?  Space vagabonds going "Keelah se'lai!"

 

... and wouldn't that also be a "connection" that would make ME:A "recognizably ME"?



#236
Sanunes

Sanunes
  • Members
  • 4 380 messages

But the reasons krogans hate the turians is gone.  There is no Tuchanka, no Palaven, no Council.  Heck there may be no genophage anymore (because choice matters SO MUCH!)  The asari being one of the older races is pointless.  All the races are quarians now.

 

The past isn't informing this story.  This isn't building on the past, it's running away from it.  It's running away from everything about the trilogy.  I didn't even see a mass relay in that trailer, and that's been as much the symbol of the franchise as the blood dragon has been for Dragon Age.

 

Just because the physical aspect of those conflicts could be gone it doesn't mean it cannot influence the game anymore, for quickly off the top of my head you run into a species that is about to be uplifted like the Salarians did to the Krogan the protagonist can reference that happening or someone in our crew wants us to uplift a species and we reference how well that worked out for the Turians and Salarians during the Krogan Rebellions.


  • Il Divo, Grieving Natashina et blahblahblah aiment ceci

#237
The Elder King

The Elder King
  • Members
  • 19 630 messages

And how much of that is based on having a home?  If everyone is packed into an Ark, cut off from their civilizations and other cultural touchstones, what are the odds that everything and everyone will basically go the way of the quarians?  Space vagabonds going "Keelah se'lai!"

I don't think their homes affect them that much. A lot of the people in the MW already didn't live in their homeworlds, and I think most of their traditions and cultures will remain. Unless you seriously think there going to make them all go in the same way of the quarian, which i think is really unlikely.
I mean, i understand the concern, but I think Bioware will keep the various species' cultures and traditions as they were in the trilogy.

#238
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 769 messages

But the reasons krogans hate the turians is gone.  There is no Tuchanka, no Palaven, no Council.  Heck there may be no genophage anymore (because choice matters SO MUCH!)  The asari being one of the older races is pointless.  All the races are quarians now.

 

The past isn't informing this story.  This isn't building on the past, it's running away from it.  It's running away from everything about the trilogy.  I didn't even see a mass relay in that trailer, and that's been as much the symbol of the franchise as the blood dragon has been for Dragon Age.

 

Why would any of that be an issue? Again: past informs the present. It doesn't matter that there's no Tuchanka, Palaven, or Concil - all those aspects still have a clear role in affecting where these characters are now, emotionally. Do people really believe that just because the Genophage was cured (which is doubtful), that this nullifies the fact that the Turians had basically committed genocide against the Krogans? We didn't see Palaven for 2 whole games - and that still managed to be relevant to the narrative. 

 

That's exactly what the past informing the story is: it's history and lore playing a role in where your current story is going. What you're suggesting goes far beyond looking at the glass as half-empty, it's not supported by how any spin-off functions which is exactly what Andromeda is. 



#239
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 769 messages

Just because the physical aspect of those conflicts could be gone it doesn't mean it cannot influence the game anymore, for quickly off the top of my head you run into a species that is about to be uplifted like the Salarians did to the Krogan the protagonist can reference that happening or someone in our crew wants us to uplift a species and we reference how well that worked out for the Turians and Salarians during the Krogan Rebellions.

 

Exactly - that's why I referenced the Asari now functioning as "newcomers" to the galaxy - we're essentially playing newcomers on a new frontier. That's rife with story-telling potential/parallels to the original trilogy, which will likely be referenced. 



#240
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 318 messages

I don't think their homes affect them that much. A lot of the people in the MW already didn't live in their homeworlds, and I think most of their traditions and cultures will remain. Unless you seriously think there going to make them all go in the same way of the quarian, which i think is really unlikely.
I mean, i understand the concern, but I think Bioware will keep the various species' cultures and traditions as they were in the trilogy.

I do, in fact, think it will go the same way as the quarian.  The Milky Way will be largely forgotten, or be some vague dream of a lost home.  It won't even matter how they got to Andromeda (maybe "The Shepard" did it <_< )



#241
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 318 messages

Exactly - that's why I referenced the Asari now functioning as "newcomers" to the galaxy - we're essentially playing newcomers on a new frontier. That's rife with story-telling potential/parallels to the original trilogy, which will likely be referenced. 

Yes, we're all newcomers.  Humans, turian, asari, all of us.  We're all the same homeless vagabonds.  But some are blue women, some are mandibled raptors, etc.  

 

The races of the Milky Way spent two millenia building up a shared history, shaped a balance of power, trade, and interaction.  All gone now.

 

Sure there's storytelling to be had there.  But everything that came before it got flushed down the toilet.  I'll be the first to admit some of it deserved that treatment.  But the baby's been thrown out with the bathwater.  



#242
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 661 messages

I mean, i understand the concern, but I think Bioware will keep the various species' cultures and traditions as they were in the trilogy.


Right. Unless annoying Iakus is very high on Bio's priority list, it's hard to see why they'd bother to invent changes to the cultures and traditions. That'd be extra work with no obvious payoff.
  • The Elder King aime ceci

#243
Hanako Ikezawa

Hanako Ikezawa
  • Members
  • 29 692 messages

Yes, we're all newcomers.  Humans, turian, asari, all of us.  We're all the same homeless vagabonds.  But some are blue women, some are mandibled raptors, etc.  

The fact we are all in the same position just makes them not including race options a missed golden opportunity, since this is the best place for it. There will never be a better setup, but no we have to have yet another game that's a human-centric ego-stroking. 


  • Felya87 et Mdizzletr0n aiment ceci

#244
Malanek

Malanek
  • Members
  • 7 838 messages

There is absolutely no point in a hard reboot. The only reason there is any sort of problem is that Bioware is determined not to pick a default ending and do away with an import file because they "respect player choice". How on earth is throwing away everything the player did over 3 games any better? Players want to move on, see what happens next, and explore the vast scope of different stories that are possible within the mass effect setting. They do not want to relive the same reaper stories told in a different way. A hard reboot is a terrible idea.



#245
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 661 messages

The races of the Milky Way spent two millenia building up a shared history, shaped a balance of power, trade, and interaction.  All gone now.


The history's still there, now with new chapters. And the balance of power, trade and interaction were already being altered at the start of the trilogy. The setting was about humans disrupting the settled order.
  • In Exile, Dean_the_Young, The Elder King et 2 autres aiment ceci

#246
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 318 messages

The history's still there, now with new chapters. And the balance of power, trade and interaction were already being altered at the start of the trilogy. The setting was about humans disrupting the settled order.

There's a difference between "altered" and 'gone"



#247
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 661 messages
It can't be "gone" unless the Andromeda society really is politically integrated and multiethnic down to the colony level.

Bio could go that route if they wanted. Trek did that between the TOS era, where the various Federation races were independent enough so war between Federation members was conceivable, and the TNG era, when it wasn't conceivable. However, the leak says that Bio did not do this.
  • In Exile aime ceci

#248
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 769 messages

Yes, we're all newcomers.  Humans, turian, asari, all of us.  We're all the same homeless vagabonds.  But some are blue women, some are mandibled raptors, etc.  

 

The races of the Milky Way spent two millenia building up a shared history, shaped a balance of power, trade, and interaction.  All gone now.

 

Sure there's storytelling to be had there.  But everything that came before it got flushed down the toilet.  I'll be the first to admit some of it deserved that treatment.  But the baby's been thrown out with the bathwater.  

 

It's not going to be "gone" simply because someone insists so. That has to be demonstrably proven. This is exactly why Dean brought up the plethora of examples where we never see or visit Palaven, Earth, etc, but still have all these events referenced - because they have auxiliary relevance - in impacting what's currently happening, even when they aren't on screen. We don't see Palaven -ever - in ME1. I'm willing to bet my money that we won't be seeing it in ME:A either. Why should this standard apply only to ME:A but not ME1? Try to find Mass Effect elements which are not completely unique to Shepard's story and I suspect all we'll have are the races, history, and technology, which are all coming with us. 



#249
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 318 messages

It can't be "gone" unless the Andromeda society really is politically integrated and multiethnic down to the colony level.

Bio could go that route if they wanted. Trek did that between the TOS era, where the various Federation races were independent enough so war between Federation members was conceivable, and the TNG era, when it wasn't conceivable. However, the leak says that Bio did not do this.

How else would just a massive project even happen?

 

 

It's not going to be "gone" simply because someone insists so. That has to be demonstrably proven. This is exactly why Dean brought up the plethora of examples where we never see or visit Palaven, Earth, etc, but still have all these events referenced - because they have auxiliary relevance - in impacting what's currently happening, even when they aren't on screen. We don't see Palaven -ever - in ME1. I'm willing to bet my money that we won't be seeing it in ME:A either. Why should this standard apply only to ME:A but not ME1? Try to find Mass Effect elements which are not completely unique to Shepard's story and I suspect all we'll have are the races, history, and technology, which are all coming with us. 

2.5 million light years isn't proof enough?

 

It's the difference between BSG and Caprica.  In one show you see a multi-world civilization, and in the other it's nuked to hell and gone.  Sure BSG references the old ways, but it's different from actually experiencing it.

 

We don't see Palaven in ME1, but it was there.  Garrus was from Palaven, and had family there.  And we see it from a distance in ME3.  And when it came under attack b the reapers, Victus mourns the loss of fifteen thousand years of civilization.



#250
RoboticWater

RoboticWater
  • Members
  • 2 358 messages

It's the difference between BSG and Caprica.  In one show you see a multi-world civilization, and in the other it's nuked to hell and gone.  Sure BSG references the old ways, but it's different from actually experiencing it.

Of course it's different, that's the point. The religion and classism still exist, but they're altered (and in many ways exacerbated) by the setting. Isn't this what we want in a sequel? The same stuff exhibited in new ways?


  • Il Divo aime ceci