736 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

I do, in fact, think it will go the same way as the quarian.  The Milky Way will be largely forgotten, or be some vague dream of a lost home.  It won't even matter how they got to Andromeda (maybe "The Shepard" did it  )

 

Sorry, Iakus, but I don't see them changing most of  the culture and beliefs of all the species in a single one (or different ones from each other). I don't see any reason why they want to do it. Turian will mostlyhave the same beliefs and traditions they had before, as the salarian, the asari or the other races. 

Right. Unless annoying Iakus is very high on Bio's priority list, it's hard to see why they'd bother to invent changes to the cultures and traditions. That'd be extra work with no obvious payoff.

Yeah, agreed. I don't see any worthwhile reason to do so. I understand some changes might happen, but it's obvious they're not going for a huge overhaul.

[Il Divo]

 

2.5 million light years isn't proof enough?

 

It's the difference between BSG and Caprica.  In one show you see a multi-world civilization, and in the other it's nuked to hell and gone.  Sure BSG references the old ways, but it's different from actually experiencing it.

 

We don't see Palaven in ME1, but it was there.  Garrus was from Palaven, and had family there.  And we see it from a distance in ME3.  And when it came under attack b the reapers, Victus mourns the loss of fifteen thousand years of civilization.

 

Why does it matter, at all, that it was there? We never go to it in ME1, hence Palaven only has auxiliary relevance. Garrus had family there, and history, and yet it never appears. Again, why should this standard not equally apply to Andromeda? This is why I say you have no proof. If Palaven can function perfectly fine for Mass Effect 1 as nothing more than world-building background, that standard should be equally suitable for Andromeda; Palaven may not appear - but it may have a role in building our current story, much as it did ME1. 

 

I'm not a BSG expert - at all - but a quick wikipedia search indicates it's a "spin-off", which is exactly what many have pointed to Andromeda as being. If you don't want a spin off, that's fine. But what you're describing BSG as strikes me as a perfectly valid story-telling approach: old lore, new perspective. 

[rossler]

If people don't like the idea of Andromeda being a spin off, the easiest way to voice your displeasure is to simply not buy the game.

[In Exile]

^I guess it's a bit like the 00 program that we see in the Bond films. Technically-speaking, you have the right to kill - so long as you don't abuse it, which we see Daniel Craig do on multiple occasions getting him into hot water. 

 

While Spectres are above the law, there probably are informal boundaries which Spectres wouldn't want to cross - without good reason. They still represent the Council as an organization and nominal immunity won't free them from all the consequences of their actions. 

 

But whose laws? That's the question. The UK could create an agency immune from prosecution. But if they decide to operate within the borders of the US and break US laws, they're not immune from prosecution in the US unless the US agrees. And for the US to do that, they'd surrender their sovereignty. There are good political reasons why diplomats are immune from prosecution (in the foreign country, in theory), but to have law enforcement immune from prosecution is basically an occupation.

 

That's the stuff  that's interesting in ME that we never explored. The idea of humans coming into such a civilization and being asked to surrender their sovereignty is extreme. It's why in ME1 I always had to burn lots of points into charm and intimidate, because otherwise my options were to adhere to an exploitative caste society (i.e., the Council) or be a belligerent racist. 

 

And if Spectres can't cross certain lines - if they need pre-authorization from the Council - that doesn't really make them any different from basicallyy any other special type of operative. 

[In Exile]

Yes, we're all newcomers.  Humans, turian, asari, all of us.  We're all the same homeless vagabonds.  But some are blue women, some are mandibled raptors, etc.  

 

The races of the Milky Way spent two millenia building up a shared history, shaped a balance of power, trade, and interaction.  All gone now.

 

Sure there's storytelling to be had there.  But everything that came before it got flushed down the toilet.  I'll be the first to admit some of it deserved that treatment.  But the baby's been thrown out with the bathwater.  

 

This is exactly why America has been, for the entire period of its history, completely free from any racial prejudice or had any hold-over issue, political belief, etc. from Europe. Wait a minute...

 

Even if he other races formed a single, unitary society, they'd have their hold over prejudice. ME:A seems predicated on the idea that these groups are all keeping their separate identity. If you take just a bit of time to read about IRL colonies, you'll quickyl realize that they're basically entirely the same. 

 

Everything that came before already got flushed down the toilet in ME1-3. All the technology turned out to the reaper tech, the balance of power was completely altered when humanity came onto the scene, Quarians/Geth are either both fully part of a new galactic society or one of them is wiped out, the krogans are potentially cured...

ME:A doesn't "flush" away the setting - if everyone leaves before the end of ME3, it preserves far more of the setting than even ME3 would preserve. 

[Sanunes]

But whose laws? That's the question. The UK could create an agency immune from prosecution. But if they decide to operate within the borders of the US and break US laws, they're not immune from prosecution in the US unless the US agrees. And for the US to do that, they'd surrender their sovereignty. There are good political reasons why diplomats are immune from prosecution (in the foreign country, in theory), but to have law enforcement immune from prosecution is basically an occupation.

 

That's the stuff  that's interesting in ME that we never explored. The idea of humans coming into such a civilization and being asked to surrender their sovereignty is extreme. It's why in ME1 I always had to burn lots of points into charm and intimidate, because otherwise my options were to adhere to an exploitative caste society (i.e., the Council) or be a belligerent racist. 

 

And if Spectres can't cross certain lines - if they need pre-authorization from the Council - that doesn't really make them any different from basicallyy any other special type of operative. 

 

Since you have to join to be part of Citadel Space it could be part of the agreement that you give free reign to Spectres to do what they want in your territory.

[UpUpAway]

This is exactly why America has been, for the entire period of its history, completely free from any racial prejudice or had any hold-over issue, political belief, etc. from Europe. Wait a minute...

 

Even if he other races formed a single, unitary society, they'd have their hold over prejudice. ME:A seems predicated on the idea that these groups are all keeping their separate identity. If you take just a bit of time to read about IRL colonies, you'll quickyl realize that they're basically entirely the same. 

 

Everything that came before already got flushed down the toilet in ME1-3. All the technology turned out to the reaper tech, the balance of power was completely altered when humanity came onto the scene, Quarians/Geth are either both fully part of a new galactic society or one of them is wiped out, the krogans are potentially cured...

ME:A doesn't "flush" away the setting - if everyone leaves before the end of ME3, it preserves far more of the setting than even ME3 would preserve. 

 

A lot about what you're saying I can agree with... but I seriously hope that the first line of this is being stated a least a bit facetiously... America... home of black/white racial issues since it's inception, with early issues in New York concerning the Irish and with a lot of Mexican, Cuban, and other racial issues flaring up more recently as well... "completely free from any racial prejudice"? - I just don't think so.

 

It is the synthesis ending of ME3 that really implies that all the underlying prejudices of the earlier groups would get flushed away for all eternity... eliminating any future "need" for anything like the Reapers to be re-created or to return.  The other two endings both imply that eventually the "peace" would break down.  So, I completely agree with your last statement. 

 

Still, carrying over political prejudices isn't the only way to connect ME:A to the ME Trilogy "enough" that the game would be recognizably part of the ME franchise.  I'm just looking forward to seeing how Bioware decides to work it all out... I just think it could be "verrrry interesting" regardless of what approach they take.

[Dean_the_Young]

The fact we are all in the same position just makes them not including race options a missed golden opportunity, since this is the best place for it. There will never be a better setup, but no we have to have yet another game that's a human-centric ego-stroking. 

 

Now now, we don't know if it's ego-stroking yet.

[Dean_the_Young]

If people don't like the idea of Andromeda being a spin off, the easiest way to voice your displeasure is to simply not buy the game.

 

Ah, but then they wouldn't be able to post in the Andromeda forum to raise their discontent about how it's not Mass Effecty enough.

[Seraphim24]

So to be brief, in contrast to that other thread where things got a bit longer...

 

Would it be such a bad thing? In my opinion, yes. 

[Il Divo]

A lot about what you're saying I can agree with... but I seriously hope that the first line of this is being stated a least a bit facetiously... America... home of black/white racial issues since it's inception, with early issues in New York concerning the Irish and with a lot of Mexican, Cuban, and other racial issues flaring up more recently as well... "completely free from any racial prejudice"? - I just don't think so.

 

It is; the key point Exile's emphasizing (and correct me if I'm wrong) is exactly that: conflict doesn't disappear simply because you take everybody and put them on a boat to another continent, even if it would be in everyone's collective interests to cooperate. The conflict is too much ingrained in decades of hatred/distrust to have it resolved that easily. 

[AlanC9]

But whose laws? That's the question. The UK could create an agency immune from prosecution. But if they decide to operate within the borders of the US and break US laws, they're not immune from prosecution in the US unless the US agrees. And for the US to do that, they'd surrender their sovereignty. There are good political reasons why diplomats are immune from prosecution (in the foreign country, in theory), but to have law enforcement immune from prosecution is basically an occupation.

This issue typically comes up nowadays in the context of a Status Of Forces Agreement. Most of the time these say that a soldier is immune to local prosecution for things done in the course of actual military activities, but crimes on his own time are subject to local jurisdiction. Which can lead to severe problems when the two cultures don't share basic norms for a criminal justice system, or agree on what is and what isn't a crime. I presume the Alliance-Citadel SOFA would say that absolutely anything a Spectre does is done in his capacity as a Spectre. (Maybe the Terra Firma party has a point?)

But, yeah, ME completely ducked these issues. Even when Shepard isn't a Spectre, she mostly operates in a law-free zone. Note that nobody seems to care if Wrex murdered Fist. Bailey seems to operate in a recognizable legal world to ours, although with a.... high degree of flexibility, perhaps?

[AlanC9]

Now now, we don't know if it's ego-stroking yet.

Should we be placing bets?

[Iakus]

Ah, but then they wouldn't be able to post in the Andromeda forum to raise their discontent about how it's not Mass Effecty enough.

A price i'm willing to pay.  There's still teh Dragon Age forums, and whatver the third IP is.

 

It is; the key point Exile's emphasizing (and correct me if I'm wrong) is exactly that: conflict doesn't disappear simply because you take everybody and put them on a boat to another continent, even if it would be in everyone's collective interests to cooperate. The conflict is too much ingrained in decades of hatred/distrust to have it resolved that easily. 

Well, between ME1 and ME2 almost all the prejudice against humans for being young upstarts vanished in two years.  

[Iakus]

This is exactly why America has been, for the entire period of its history, completely free from any racial prejudice or had any hold-over issue, political belief, etc. from Europe. Wait a minute...

 

Even if he other races formed a single, unitary society, they'd have their hold over prejudice. ME:A seems predicated on the idea that these groups are all keeping their separate identity. If you take just a bit of time to read about IRL colonies, you'll quickyl realize that they're basically entirely the same. 

 

Everything that came before already got flushed down the toilet in ME1-3. All the technology turned out to the reaper tech, the balance of power was completely altered when humanity came onto the scene, Quarians/Geth are either both fully part of a new galactic society or one of them is wiped out, the krogans are potentially cured...

ME:A doesn't "flush" away the setting - if everyone leaves before the end of ME3, it preserves far more of the setting than even ME3 would preserve. 

I've addressed how Mass Effect conveniently looked the other way regarding prejudice against humans in Mass Effect.  I've seen no evidence that the groups are keeping their own identities.  In fact, the N7 Day didn't even show a fleet of ships, but a single large vessel flying between galaxies.  Apparently not only has the discharge and fuel issue been solved, but they can store adequate supplies of dextro and levo protein food as well!

 

Things were changing in ME1 & ME2.  Change can be good, and tell interesting stories.  but everything got flushed in ME3 with RGB and other galaxy-affecting changes which were not only very unpopular, but caused too much divergence to continue.  Something Bioware simply will not admit to.

 

Everyone leaving before ME3 starts has its own problems.  Namely set-up.

[UpUpAway]

A price i'm willing to pay.  There's still teh Dragon Age forums, and whatver the third IP is.

 

Well, between ME1 and ME2 almost all the prejudice against humans for being young upstarts vanished in two years.  

 

It certainly didn't vanish in ME2 if Shepard allowed the Council to die.

[AlanC9]

I've addressed how Mass Effect conveniently looked the other way regarding prejudice against humans in Mass Effect.  I've seen no evidence that the groups are keeping their own identities.  In fact, the N7 Day didn't even show a fleet of ships, but a single large vessel flying between galaxies.  Apparently not only has the discharge and fuel issue been solved, but they can store adequate supplies of dextro and levo protein food as well!

Stasis pods solve the latter problem. And the leaked material explicitly refers to colonies of individual races.

Things were changing in ME1 & ME2.  Change can be good, and tell interesting stories.  but everything got flushed in ME3 with RGB and other galaxy-affecting changes which were not only very unpopular, but caused too much divergence to continue.  Something Bioware simply will not admit to.

What possible value would "admitting to it" have for anyone? What would "admitting to it" even look like?

[The Elder King]

Stasis pods solve the latter problem. And the leaked material explicitly refers to colonies of individual races.


What possible value would "admitting to it" have for anyone? What would "admitting to it" even look like?

Yep, there was talk about a krogan colony ship as well. I'd say to wait and see before being sure all the species will be together as a single entity. The little we know about the plot suggests even we'll be occupied with the human colonization of new planets, not other species (which would happen anyway, since turians and quarians need their own planets)

[RoboticWater]

I've addressed how Mass Effect conveniently looked the other way regarding prejudice against humans in Mass Effect.  I've seen no evidence that the groups are keeping their own identities.  In fact, the N7 Day didn't even show a fleet of ships, but a single large vessel flying between galaxies.  Apparently not only has the discharge and fuel issue been solved, but they can store adequate supplies of dextro and levo protein food as well!

 

Things were changing in ME1 & ME2.  Change can be good, and tell interesting stories.  but everything got flushed in ME3 with RGB and other galaxy-affecting changes which were not only very unpopular, but caused too much divergence to continue.  Something Bioware simply will not admit to.

 

Everyone leaving before ME3 starts has its own problems.  Namely set-up.

It just looks like you're grasping at straws to hate a game about which we know very little purely out of spite for ME3.

 

Yeah, there's a lot of logistical concerns that need to be addressed at the beginning of ME:A, but solid logistics don't define Mass Effect. Hell, this series is probably defined more so by its unlikely premises than decent logistics. Either the explanation BioWare gives us for the Ark is sufficient or it isn't; regardless, the culture will remain.

[Dean_the_Young]

Should we be placing bets?

 

Only if we're also betting on the people who swore they'd never play Bioware or Mass Effect against after ME3 who end up playing Andromeda.

[Dean_the_Young]

A price i'm willing to pay.  There's still teh Dragon Age forums, and whatver the third IP is.

 

You're going to complain about how Andromeda doesn't feel like a Mass Effect game in the non-Mass Effect forums ever after refusing to play it?

 

Uh, sure. Okay.

[Dean_the_Young]

It just looks like you're grasping at straws to hate a game about which we know very little purely out of spite for ME3.

 

Yeah, there's a lot of logistical concerns that need to be addressed at the beginning of ME:A, but solid logistics don't define Mass Effect. Hell, this series is probably defined more so by its unlikely premises than decent logistics. Either the explanation BioWare gives us for the Ark is sufficient or it isn't; regardless, the culture will remain.

 

ME1 had the worst justification of logistics of the series, considering what the backstory and political context rested on.

 

Andromeda already has the technobabble handwave- Reapertech and such- to justify itself, but Alliance fleets just kinda magically appeared in time for the First Contact War.

[rossler]

Ah, but then they wouldn't be able to post in the Andromeda forum to raise their discontent about how it's not Mass Effecty enough.

 

Everyone has a different view on what makes a Mass Effect game. Being vocal won't change anything though. Considering that the game is set to be released sometime next year.

 

Still, they've given people the general idea behind Andromeda before the game ships. Plenty to make an informed buying decision.

[The Elder King]

Everyone has a different view on what makes a Mass Effect game. Being vocal won't change anything though. Considering that the game is set to be released sometime next year.

 

Still, they've given people the general idea behind Andromeda before the game ships. Plenty to make an informed buying decision.

On that note I don't think they gave enough info so far. Sure, the Andromeda decision will make some people decide already to not buy it, but there's a lot people who aren't sure about it. 

I don't think it's a problem, since they'd release more info from June, but I wouldn't say they released enough info yet.

[RoboticWater]

ME1 had the worst justification of logistics of the series, considering what the backstory and political context rested on.

 

Andromeda already has the technobabble handwave- Reapertech and such- to justify itself, but Alliance fleets just kinda magically appeared in time for the First Contact War.

Well there we have it. ME:A is even more faithful to the spirit of Mass Effect than I would have thought.