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[The Elder King]

 

 

 

 

I just checked Amazon.  Heir to the Empire is still in print.

 

ANd a rebooted game wouldn't erase all copies fo these games

 

 

 

That doesn't change the fact that there are people disappointed by the invalidation of the Expanded Universe. The fact that you can buy or posses books, comics and videogames about it doesn't mean the Expanded Universe exist in the timeline, and there are people that don't like that. As I said, I don't share this stance, but it still exists.

In the same way, the fact that the copies of the trilogy exist doesn't change the fact that it'll be invalidated by the reboot. Or do you think there won't be people that would be angry about it?

Not everyone share the same views, or see something in the same way. For example, there are people who woul deal with the eventual lore-breaking plots involted with the voyage to Andromeda better, or not even care, then you. On the same level, if ME will be rebooted there'll be people who won't care (you, me, and many others) and there'll be people who will be disappointed.

 

As I already said, there was no option after ME3 that wouldn't have lead to disappointment about a part of the fanbase. The fact that you don't have problems with a reboot doesn't mean others won't.

[RoboticWater]

But it could be two out of three:  New story and new characters in the same setting

Yes, that's the problem. New characters in new story in same setting means overwriting the original continuity.

 

Fairy tales work because they're not trying to be within the same universe. They're totally separate entities. 
 

No matter what it does to the setting or the lore?

Prove to me that Andromeda will ruin the either of those any more than a reboot would.

[Killroy]

Yes, that's the problem. New characters in new story in same setting means overwriting the original continuity.
 
Fairy tales work because they're not trying to be within the same universe. They're totally separate entities. 
 
Prove to me that Andromeda will ruin the either of those any more than a reboot would.

 
Who cares if the original trilogy is "overwritten" by a reboot? It doesn't effect anything. It effects even less than the Star Wars expanded universe wipe effected. 
 

That doesn't change the fact that there are people disappointed by the invalidation of the Expanded Universe. The fact that you can buy or posses books, comics and videogames about it doesn't mean the Expanded Universe exist in the timeline, and there are people that don't like that. As I said, I don't share this stance, but it still exists.
In the same way, the fact that the copies of the trilogy exist doesn't change the fact that it'll be invalidated by the reboot. Or do you think there won't be people that would be angry about it?
Not everyone share the same views, or see something in the same way. For example, there are people who woul deal with the eventual lore-breaking plots involted with the voyage to Andromeda better, or not even care, then you. On the same level, if ME will be rebooted there'll be people who won't care (you, me, and many others) and there'll be people who will be disappointed.

 
Again, who cares? If there will be people getting angry over whatever they choose to do why does it matter if one way will make some people angry?

[RoboticWater]

 Who cares if the original trilogy is "overwritten" by a reboot? It doesn't effect anything. It effects even less than the Star Wars expanded universe wipe effected. 

I know. Like I said, I don't care about what's canon and what isn't; however, it's abundantly clear that some people do.

 

Since going to Andromeda and making a reboot would result in essentially the same thing story-wise (new plot, new characters, similar cultures, etc.), then I consider Andromeda to be the better option because it appeases fans who want to hold onto the original canon.

[The Elder King]

 
Who cares if the original trilogy is "overwritten" by a reboot? It doesn't effect anything. It effects even less than the Star Wars expanded universe wipe effected. 
 

 
Again, who cares? If there will be people getting angry over whatever they choose to do why does it matter if one way will make some people angry?

It doesn't. That's way I was fine with whatever option they'd pick, as long as it'll be well executed. The option of going to Andromeda presents both pros and cons. I'm willing to wait and see how it'll turn out. 

 

I started this part of the conversation because Iakus compared a ME reboot invalidating (or not) the ME trilogy as a different fairy tale would invalidate (or not) another. I don't think that the two things are comparable, that's all.

[LPPrince]

I miss the off-topic section.

 

 

Same. *plays sad tune*

[LPPrince]

Profits matter, not opinions. If they were concerned with consumer opinion they wouldn't have responded to the ending hubbub in the douchiest manner possible("artistic integrity," "we won't change the ending," "we made this DLC that changes the ending, but we didn't change the ending!")

 

 

And there may be profit in a reboot. There may not be. Who knows? They do if they're paying attention to public opinion and how the business is going.

[UpUpAway]

Just keeping the basic tenants and tone, but ditching the rest. A reboot of Mass Effect doesn't need Shepard(who is a boring PC to begin with) or the story structure(or lack thereof) of the trilogy. Even if you were to retell the struggle with the Reapers in a reboot it should be very different, if only to avoid bungling it again.

 

Option 6 then... which is most likely what ME:A will turn out to be... and as I said... different people draw the line concerning "keeping the basic tenets (rather than tenants) and tone" (i.e. consistency) in different places.  Bioware is merely going to avoid those tenets that aren't consistent in the original trilogy anyways (due to the fact that the different players were given options to select different tenets in the original trilogy).  Any judgment regarding "failure" to keep the "basic" tenets and tone of the original trilogy really just has to wait until after ME:A is released.  (Also note - "basic" is also a term that is subject to variances in opinion as to what it constitutes).

[In Exile]

How many threads have their been questioning how going to Andromeda makes any sense?

In any case, it doesn't invalidate the original trilogy any more than any fairy tale that begins with "once upon a time" invalidates any other.

Very few? During the ending debacle you could go back 30 pages and see nothing but ending threads, with new ones propping up every hour.

[AlanC9]

Just keeping the basic tenants and tone, but ditching the rest. A reboot of Mass Effect doesn't need Shepard(who is a boring PC to begin with) or the story structure(or lack thereof) of the trilogy. Even if you were to retell the struggle with the Reapers in a reboot it should be very different, if only to avoid bungling it again.

I'm not quite clear on what counts as either a basic tenet or the tone. I mean, for you; I could draw up my own list, but I don't know how much they'd overlap. That you consider the Reapers' presence negotiable makes me think that they wouldn't overlap much.

And anyway, what does doing that accomplish that ME:A won't also accomplish? i guess if you really, really want the Citadel back this would make that happen. What else?

[AlanC9]

Who cares if the original trilogy is "overwritten" by a reboot? It doesn't effect anything. It effects even less than the Star Wars expanded universe wipe effected. 

This is just silly. A reboot means no more games in the original continuity. That's a change.

[Drone223]

No, they weren't. In ME2, "humans" were ineffective. An insane racist billionaire took actions against the reapers, but his efforts were also a series of comical failures unless Commander Shepard was involved. It's not about who took action - it's about the long-winded speeches about the natural position of humanity as the dominant and ruling force of the galaxy. In ME1, this is a fact of the setting as illustrated by the ending. In ME2, this is the personal belief of a billionaire facist.
 

I didn't recall any other species taking action against the collector's, it was a human organization that was taking action against them even if they were human supremacist.

 

In ME3, humanity is curbstomped by the reapers, depending on your previous choices the Council may well tell you to go **** yourself, and humanity is generally the villain. The Council races hold out far better against the reapers - including the turians.

The salarian's did absolutely nothing, asari withheld something that could've help the war effort, turian's had a secret bomb that nearly undid the turian-krogan alliance and the quarians decided to waste time and resources starting a pointless war on the geth. Mean while humanity was overseeing the construction the only thing that could defeat the reaper's. Humanity from the get-go were the only ones who were actively trying to find a way to defeat the reaper's not the other races.

 

You're confusing that the game focuses on humanity with the fact that ME1 treated humanity as the all powerful ubermensch - the most innovative, capable species in the galaxy. This goes away in ME2 and ME3.

 

A human organization literally brought some one back from the dead that certainly fills the quo of humans are the best. Not to mention all the nonsense with regards to "human genetic diversity".

 

Again, it doesn't matter who takes action. Humanity achieves jack all without Shepard. And in ME2 humanity does nothing, as the Alliance does nothing. A racist facist does something, and that something is to ask Shepard nicely to save everyone.

Yes it does matter, human supremacist or not human's were the only ones doing something against the reaper's and humanity ended up haivng the only means of defeating the reaper's.

 

In ME3 the whole galaxy is fragmented and the whole point of the game is for Shepard to go around nicely and ask people to help humanity in return for doing them favours.

Because humanity were the ones leading the bloody war effort.

 

 

In ME1, humanity has made the most political and economic and military gains in the history of the galaxy, they've revolutionized galatic technology a few times over (including with the Normandy, their military tactics such as space aircraft carriers, medi-gel), they've achieved feats in decades that the other races haven't achieved in centuries...
 

You're confusing the fact that Shepard is a human and the focal point of the story with the slobbering over humanity as a whole.

 

 

"Shepard is a hero a bloody icon." Shepard is considered by many in the galaxy a major figure head for humanity so some of the things Shepard does do in fact reflect humanity as a whole.

 

[UpUpAway]

I didn't recall any other species taking action against the collector's, it was a human organization that was taking action against them even if they were human supremacist.

 

The salarian's did absolutely nothing, asari withheld something that could've help the war effort, turian's had a secret bomb that nearly undo the turian-krogan alliance and the quarians decided to waste time and resources starting a pointless war on the geth. Mean while humanity was overseeing the construction the only thing that could defeat the reaper's. Humanity from the get-go were the only ones who were actively trying to find a way to defeat the reaper's not the other races.

 

A human organization literally brought some one back from the dead that certainly fills the quo of humans are the best. Not to mention all the nonsense with regards to "human genetic diversity".

 

Yes it does matter, human supremacist or not human's were the only ones doing something against the reaper's and humanity ended up haivng the only means of defeating the reaper's.

 

Because humanity were the ones leading the bloody war effort.

 

"Shepard is a hero a bloody icon." Shepard is considered by many in the galaxy a major figure head for humanity so some of the things Shepard does do in fact reflect humanity as a whole.

 

 

... and on the other side of this debate, we also have (from ME3) ""The Council called the invaders 'Reapers', the same term once used by a disgraced Commander Shepard to refer to a theoretical enemy."  Again, my point being that both sides are presented and it is left up to the player what they decide to "take in" or "ignore."  Both viewpoints can be substantiated to a degree... and knocked down to a degree.  Neither is a "unviersal" position.

[Drone223]

... and on the other side of this debate, we also have (from ME3) ""The Council called the invaders 'Reapers', the same term once used by a disgraced Commander Shepard to refer to a theoretical enemy."  Again, my point being that both sides are presented and it is left up to the player what they decide to "take in" or "ignore."

And look how that turned out for them....

[UpUpAway]

And look how that turned out for them....

 

How it turned out is, again, up to what the player decided... and people are still arguing over it 4 years later.  If the game was so lop-sided about presenting humanity as you suggest, there would be very little argument going on about it.

[The Elder King]

And look how that turned out for them....

To be fair, with some exceptions like Anderson and Hackett, a lot of Alliance's highest officers and politicians acted the same way after Shepard's death. Kenneth's, words , if not ME3's prologue, shown how the Alliance as a whole wasn't that different from the Council's stance.

[themikefest]

To be fair, with some exceptions like Anderson and Hackett, a lot of Alliance's highest officers and politicians acted the same way after Shepard's death. Kenneth's, words , if not ME3's prologue, shown how the Alliance as a whole wasn't that different from the Council's stance.

Why are those two the exception?

[The Elder King]

Why are those two the exception?

They believed in Shepard and didn't go against his words after he died. The Alliance kind of did, other then the Council.

[themikefest]

They believed in Shepard and didn't go against his words after he died. The Alliance kind of did, other then the Council.

Really? Is that why Anderson says its up to Shepard to deal with the reapers? So he basically did a whole lot of nothing for 2 years except sit in his chair taking the shape of it. Just like the rest of the ME1 characters. None of them made any effort to find a way to find a way to stop the reapers.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Really? Is that why Anderson says its up to Shepard to deal with the reapers? So he basically did a whole lot of nothing for 2 years except sit in his chair taking the shape of it. Just like the rest of the ME1 characters. None of them made any effort to find a way to find a way to stop the reapers.

Admiral Hackett was building up the fleets in both strength and numbers while scouring Prothean archives for information, and Anderson was planning to be a leader in the war effort. The Normandy in ME3 was being retrofitted originally to be Anderson's command ship. 

[The Elder King]

Really? Is that why Anderson says its up to Shepard to deal with the reapers? So he basically did a whole lot of nothing for 2 years except sit in his chair taking the shape of it. Just like the rest of the ME1 characters. None of them made any effort to find a way to find a way to stop the reapers.

Anderson said straight ahead to Shepard that he believed in his words and that the Reapers' thought gave him nightmare. He didn't do nothing or wasn't successful in achieving something because he didn't have enough power to do so. He was in a minority position in both the Council and the Alliance.A single (or two men) can't do nothing if the majoriy of the political power of both the Council and the Alliance were against it.

Beside, I never said that they did a good job. I said they believed in Shepard, while the Council an the majority of the Alliance didn't. The fact that they didn't manage to do much or anything doesn't mean they didn't believe the Reapers were coming.

How exactly Garrus, Tali, the VS would have been able to do something? They didn't have the power to rally their races in doing something. Garrus did so in ME3 with his father's influence, and even then the Turian's hierarchy gave him a token. Wrex became the leader of the krogan, but I don't see how that would matter for the other species.

 

edit: also: what Hanako said.

[themikefest]

Admiral Hackett was building up the fleets in both strength and numbers while scouring Prothean archives for information, and Anderson was planning to be a leader in the war effort.

Were they doing that after the SR1 was destroy or was that after Shepard dealt with the collectors?
 

The Normandy in ME3 was being retrofitted originally to be Anderson's command ship.

Good thing that never happened.
 
 

Anderson said straight ahead to Shepard that he believed in his words and that the Reapers' thought gave him nightmare.

If he believes in Shepard, he would never of made that comment
 

He didn't do nothing or wasn't successful in achieving something because he didn't have enough power to do so. He was in a minority position in both the Council and the Alliance.A single (or two men) can't do nothing if the majoriy of the political power of both the Council and the Alliance were against it.

That's a lame excuse. How hard would it of been to have Anderson give a shuttle to Joker to fly Liara, Garrus and the VS to Ilos to find clues? Or how about Mars? Heck. They could've gone back to Eden Prime to see if there was anything more to find.
 

Beside, I never said that they did a good job. I said they believed in Shepard, while the Council an the majority of the Alliance didn't. The fact that they didn't manage to do much or anything doesn't mean they didn't believe the Reapers were coming.

Regardless if they believe Shepard, they still failed to do nothing.
 

How exactly Garrus, Tali, the VS would have been able to do something?

Read above
 

They didn't have the power to rally their races in doing something.

Who said anything about rallying their species? As I said above, it would not of been hard to search the places that were seen in ME1 to find clues or at least hoping to find clues. Even if they find nothing, they made an attempt. But they never made any attempt. All they did was scatter all over the galaxy after the SR1 was destroyed.
 

Garrus did so in ME3 with his father's influence, and even then the Turian's hierarchy gave him a token.

Why couldn't he do that after the SR1 was destroyed? Oh that's right. He was shooting bad guys. A lot of good that's going to do against the reapers
 

Wrex became the leader of the krogan, but I don't see how that would matter for the other species.

He could join the others in helping search for clues to find a way to stop the reapers
 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Were they doing that after the SR1 was destroy or was that after Shepard dealt with the collectors?

Ever since the Battle of the Citadel when the Reaper threat was revealed, so before both of those. 

 

Other than Shepard, Hackett is the human who has done the most to face the Reaper threat. He built up their navy, ordered them retrofitted with the best armor and guns possible, researched all Prothean data in their possession to find clues, sent out various research teams to find information like Dr. Kenson and her team in the Arrival DLC. 

[themikefest]

Other than Shepard, Hackett is the human who has done the most to face the Reaper threat. He built up their navy, ordered them retrofitted with the best armor and guns possible,

That's all well and good, but that only works if there's a way to deal with the reapers.
 

researched all Prothean data in their possession to find clues, sent out various research teams to find information like Dr. Kenson and her team in the Arrival DLC.

Yes he did. Why didn't he do the same with Liara after the SR1 was destroyed? She is the so-called Prothean expert. Why not send her to Mars, back to Ilos or Eden Prime to see if there's anything of value?
 

[Iakus]

This is just silly. A reboot means no more games in the original continuity. That's a change.

Given Andromeda is an attempt to get as far away from the "original continuity" as possible, I fail to see what's so silly.