736 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That's all well and good, but that only works if there's a way to deal with the reapers.
 

Yes he did. Why didn't he do the same with Liara after the SR1 was destroyed? She is the so-called Prothean expert. Why not send her to Mars, back to Ilos or Eden Prime to see if there's anything of value?
 

It is. Those advancements made it so that instead of requiring fleets to take down a Reaper, it could be done with around four Dreadnoughts. 

 

Because he doesn't own Liara. For all we know he tried, but Liara instead focused on finding out about Shepard's death. 

[themikefest]

It is. Those advancements made it so that instead of requiring fleets to take down a Reaper, it could be done with around four Dreadnoughts.

What fleets to take down a reaper? You mean Sovereign? No. It was only the SR1. with a fighter on each side, that destroyed the reaper. That whole battle was setup for the itsy-bitsy frigate to destroy the reaper. Even after the shields were down, the fleets weren't doing any damage.

Four dreadnoughts to take down a reaper? Yeah I read that. Its amazing how that one ship was able to destroy that capital ship over Earth.
 

Because he doesn't own Liara. For all we know he tried, but Liara instead focused on finding out about Shepard's death.

Own Liara? What? Maybe he did try, but I doubt that. And Liara focusing on finding about Shepard's death. She wasted 2 years when she could've been trying to find clues to stop the reapers.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So out of curiosity, what would be enough effort someone had to show for you to admit they did something to stop the Reapers?  

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm not quite clear on what counts as either a basic tenet or the tone. I mean, for you; I could draw up my own list, but I don't know how much they'd overlap. That you consider the Reapers' presence negotiable makes me think that they wouldn't overlap much.
 

 

Especially if you did a reboot right after the Shepard Trilogy. One of the few unifying elements of the Shepard games, and most of the associated side-stories, has been the Reapers. Their role as antagonists, the ruinous role of their technology, and the context of Milky Way civilization being as a part of their trap.

 

Like, even if you did get rid of them and attributed the Citadel and everything else to Prothean/precursor tech... what then? Without the key reveal of ME1, of the cycles of extinction, how could something so different in the underlying backstory be the same 'basic tenant'?

 

 

And anyway, what does doing that accomplish that ME:A won't also accomplish? i guess if you really, really want the Citadel back this would make that happen. What else?

 

 

I'm not even sure you could argue that. The ME trilogy had three different depictions of the Citadel over the course of the games, and the Arc concept arc seems able to cover them all. We've got our open air white and vegetation, we have our internal corridors and bulkheads, and we have high-speed transit routes and implicit docking facilities.

What, specifically, is unique about the Citadel that wouldn't have a similar 'tone' that united the previous three iterations?

[themikefest]

So out of curiosity, what would be enough effort someone had to show for you to admit they did something to stop the Reapers?

They don't have to show anything. Just mention that they found  nothing that gave a clue or answer to deal with the reapers.Shepard is never given the opportunity to ask anyone if anything is/was been done to stop the reapers or find a way to stop the reapers.

[Iakus]

Especially if you did a reboot right after the Shepard Trilogy. One of the few unifying elements of the Shepard games, and most of the associated side-stories, has been the Reapers. Their role as antagonists, the ruinous role of their technology, and the context of Milky Way civilization being as a part of their trap.

 

Like, even if you did get rid of them and attributed the Citadel and everything else to Prothean/precursor tech... what then? Without the key reveal of ME1, of the cycles of extinction, how could something so different in the underlying backstory be the same 'basic tenant'?

You could completely remove the Reapers and change the Collectors to batarian slavers and not substantially change ME2

[KaiserShep]

You could completely remove the Reapers and change the Collectors to batarian slavers and not substantially change ME2

I dunno about that. Changing the antagonists from Collectors to batarians totally changes the entire plot. I mean, slavers are just a relatively minor threat. Why would the Illusive Man be so invested in assembling a team to fight them, or bringing back Shepard for that matter? Why would we bother to get Mordin or look for warlord Okeer and discover Grunt?

[Dean_the_Young]

You could completely remove the Reapers and change the Collectors to batarian slavers and not substantially change ME2

 

In terms of the plot of ME2, I'd agree, but of the ME trilogy, ME2 (badly) in the context of the Reapers, with the Reaper arrival (and lack of preparation) providing everything from the political hand-wave for Shepard being isolated to the Big Reveals of the core plot.

 

Don't get me wrong- I agree ME2 was so badly framed it could be a sidestory with no relevance to the Reapers. But it was intended has being a part of the trilogy with key developments and a significant reveal which is intrinsically tied to the overarching Reaper plotline.

[Iakus]

In terms of the plot of ME2, I'd agree, but of the ME trilogy, ME2 (badly) in the context of the Reapers, with the Reaper arrival (and lack of preparation) providing everything from the political hand-wave for Shepard being isolated to the Big Reveals of the core plot.

 

Don't get me wrong- I agree ME2 was so badly framed it could be a sidestory with no relevance to the Reapers. But it was intended has being a part of the trilogy with key developments and a significant reveal which is intrinsically tied to the overarching Reaper plotline.

But ME2 is a full third of the trilogy.

 

ANd heck even in ME1 the Reapers were more a MacGuffin than anything else.

[Sanunes]

But ME2 is a full third of the trilogy.

 

ANd heck even in ME1 the Reapers were more a MacGuffin than anything else.

 

I agree, the only game where the Reapers were part of the story a good part of the time was the third game.  In Mass Effect 1 Sovereign could have easily been the most advanced Geth ship and had so many Geth units it became a fully functional AI, in Mass Effect 2 I am pretty sure they could figure out a reason why The Illusive Man was interested in something The Batarians had if you wanted to replace them for the Collectors, such as they found working Prothean technology.

[UpUpAway]

Were they doing that after the SR1 was destroy or was that after Shepard dealt with the collectors?
 

 

 

That depends on if the player has the Arrival DLC and when they do that DLC (which can be done in ME2 long before Shepard deals with the Collectors)... because, according to Liara, she and Hackett realized they were running out of time after Shepard had to destroy the Alpha relay.

 

Quote Liara speaking to Shepard on Mars when he inquires about why they were looking in the Mars archives:  "Process of elimination, mixed with a little desperation.  When you destroyed the Alpha relay, you bought us some time, but then you were under investigation.  I knew I had to do something, Hackett knew it too.  He contacted me asking if I would use my resources as the Shadow Broker to find a way to stop the Reapers..."

 

Also, a "process of elimination" implies that they searched several different sites before searching on Mars.  Also, the Shadow Broker's resources (i.e. agents) are portrayed as being quite large in number and coming from a variety of species, so it can't really be said that only humans were doing anything either, but it is clear that it was Hackett (not the council or the Alliance) who was personally responsible for recruiting Liara and her team to that task.  There is still room, however, for the player to decide on their own whether Hackett was operating with or without the direction/approval of the Alliance brass.  (That Hackett is willing to act outside Alliance authority is evident if the player does the Renegade mission involving killing Darius and, again, selects certain lines that reveal this and, possibly, how they "apply" the debrief at the end of Arrival.)

 

I don't think Hackett would reasonably consider sending Liara around to find a solution to the Reaper threat prior to her becoming the Shadow Broker in ME2.  Liara is portrayed as being a "very inexperienced" Prothean expert in ME1.  She is young by the standards of her species and her work is being largely dismissed by the Asari.  Her loyalty would probably also be in question with anyone outside Shepard's immediate crew (due to the activities of Benezia before she was killed).

[AlanC9]

ANd heck even in ME1 the Reapers were more a MacGuffin than anything else.

I really wish people wouldn't use that word wrong, but I'm starting to think it's a lost cause.

Anyway, I get the point, I think. You guys want the setting that ME appeared to be at, say, five minutes into the trilogy, right? Before any of the reveals. Or rather, the superficial appearance of that setting, since the actual substance is irrelevant to you.

[Seraphim24]

No offense, but are any of you at all capable of actually answering the thread topic question?

[The Elder King]

That's all well and good, but that only works if there's a way to deal with the reapers.
 

Yes he did. Why didn't he do the same with Liara after the SR1 was destroyed? She is the so-called Prothean expert. Why not send her to Mars, back to Ilos or Eden Prime to see if there's anything of value?
 

Liara focused on Shepard's rescue, though it didn't take her two years. Most of that time went on going after the Shadow Broker. Who was helping the Collectors and indirectly the Reapers.

Ilos was searched. The Council told that to Shepard already in ME2. And I doubt Eden Prime wasn't searched by the Alliance.

[themikefest]

Liara focused on Shepard's rescue, though it didn't take her two years. Most of that time went on going after the Shadow Broker. Who was helping the Collectors and indirectly the Reapers.

Shepard's rescue? You mean handing over Shepard's corpse to Cerberus? She still wasted that time that could've been used to find a way to stop the reapers.
 

Ilos was searched. The Council told that to Shepard already in ME2.

What did they search?  Why wouldn't she go with them? She is the so-called Prothean expert. She did say she wanted to stay and study them if she's taken to Ilos in ME1.
 

And I doubt Eden Prime wasn't searched by the Alliance.

So why couldn't the squadmates go back there to search for clues?

[themikefest]

That depends on if the player has the Arrival DLC and when they do that DLC (which can be done in ME2 long before Shepard deals with the Collectors)... because, according to Liara, she and Hackett realized they were running out of time after Shepard had to destroy the Alpha relay.

It wasn't after the SR1 was destroyed, it was much later after Shepard is back on his/her feet.
 

Quote Liara speaking to Shepard on Mars when he inquires about why they were looking in the Mars archives:  "Process of elimination, mixed with a little desperation.  When you destroyed the Alpha relay, you bought us some time, but then you were under investigation.  I knew I had to do something, Hackett knew it too.  He contacted me asking if I would use my resources as the Shadow Broker to find a way to stop the Reapers..."

If both knew they had to something, why didn't they do something after the SR1 was destroyed? They only did something after Shepard has been dead for 2 years when he/she is back on his/her feet.

Would it of been that hard to get Liara to search the Mars achives after the SR1 was destroyed? Isn't she the so-called Prothean expert?

[The Elder King]

Shepard's rescue? You mean handing over Shepard's corpse to Cerberus? She still wasted that time that could've been used to find a way to stop the reapers.
 

What did they search?  Why wouldn't she go with them? She is the so-called Prothean expert. She did say she wanted to stay and study them if she's taken to Ilos in ME1.
 

So why couldn't the squadmates go back there to search for clues?

Because the Alliance dismissed them? They didn't want to follow Shepards' words and stance. And Anderson wasn't strong enough to overcome the top brass of the Alliance.

[UpUpAway]

It wasn't after the SR1 was destroyed, it was much later after Shepard is back on his/her feet.
 

If both knew they had to something, why didn't they do something after the SR1 was destroyed? They only did something after Shepard has been dead for 2 years when he/she is back on his/her feet.

Would it of been that hard to get Liara to search the Mars achives after the SR1 was destroyed? Isn't she the so-called Prothean expert?

 

See additions added to my previous post.

 

Liara is portrayed in ME1 as being very young and inexperienced (by the standards of her own species) and her work on the Protheans is not carrying any credibility with the Asari at that time.  Also, the Aliiance would not fully trust her because she's Benezia's daughter.  It's her "crush" for Shepard (which does exist whether she is romanced or not) that prompts her attempt to find and retrieve Shepard's body to give to Cerberus not any great skill in espionage that the Alliance would have recognized before she becomes the Shadow Broker during ME2. 

 

The point is that both the Shadow Broker DLC and Arrival can be done in ME2 long BEFORE Shepard deals with the Collectors (i.e. the Shadow Broker DLC opens right after Horizon and the Arrival DLC, I believe, opens either also right after Horizon or right after the Collector Ship mission) so the player does have some control/option as to how they want to portray the timeline for when Hackett starts to act to find a solution for the Reaper threat.  If the player wants, they can do both LOTSB well before the Collector Base... or they can do both after the Collector Base or do one before and one after or do neither ever.

[themikefest]

Because the Alliance dismissed them? They didn't want to follow Shepards' words and stance. And Anderson wasn't strong enough to overcome the top brass of the Alliance.

That's a poor excuse. He could've gone behind their backs, got a shuttle for Joker to use to take Liara, Garrus and VS and whoever else to go to Ilos, Eden Prime to find any clues. Even asking Hackett to give permission to study the archive on Mars.

[themikefest]

See additions added to my previous post.
 
Liara is portrayed in ME1 as being very young and inexperienced (by the standards of her own species) and her work on the Protheans is not carrying any credibility with the Asari at that time.

Yeah I know. One of the reasons I would never of made her a squadmate
 

Also, the Aliiance would not fully trust her because she's Benezia's daughter.

Hackett trusts her enough to give Shepard's dogtags to her for some reason.
 

It's her "crush" for Shepard (which does exist whether she is romanced or not) that prompts her attempt to find and retrieve Shepard's body to give to Cerberus not any great skill in espionage that the Alliance would have recognized before she becomes the Shadow Broker during ME2.

Wasn't it Cerberus that gave her the information that leads her to find Shepard's corpse? Without that, I doubt she would've made any attempt to go after Shepard.
 

The point is that both the Shadow Broker DLC and Arrival can be done in ME2 long BEFORE Shepard deals with the Collectors (i.e. the Shadow Broker DLC opens right after Horizon and the Arrival DLC, I believe, opens either also right after Horizon or right after the Collector Ship mission) so the player does have some control/option as to how they want to portray the timeline for when Hackett starts to act to find a solution for the Reaper threat.  If the player wants, they can do both LOTSB well before the Collector Base... or they can do both after the Collector Base or do one before and one after or do neither ever.

Both can be completed right after Horizon. Try it some time.

[UpUpAway]

Because the Alliance dismissed them? They didn't want to follow Shepards' words and stance. And Anderson wasn't strong enough to overcome the top brass of the Alliance.

 

Agree - According to Joker, Shepard's crew was disbanded, records sealed, etc. by "the Alliance" (if the Council is saved) or by "the Council" (if the Council is allowed to die).  It is quite possible that both Hackett and Anderson disagreed with their bosses and would have acted sooner, but were not in a position to do so until after Shepard returns and Liara became the Shadow Broker.  There is also the human mistrust of aliens to consider since Joker adds "I don't think they liked all the aliens on your crew" (or something similar).

[UpUpAway]

Yeah I know. One of the reasons I would never of made her a squadmate
 

Hackett trusts her enough to give Shepard's dogtags to her for some reason.
 

Wasn't it Cerberus that gave her the information that leads her to find Shepard's corpse? Without that, I doubt she would've made any attempt to go after Shepard.
 

Both can be completed right after Horizon. Try it some time.

 

Did Hackett give her the dog tags?  All Liara says is:  "It took some digging, but I recovered your tags."

 

Yes, Cerberus gave her the information that helps her find Shepard's corpse... Cerberus is not beyond taking advantage of her "crush" on Shepard... knowing that she may lack experience but has motivation to recover him for them.  I also doubt that she would have mustered the courage to go after him had they not given her that information... what does that have to do with your criticisms of Hackett for not sending her out to search for a Reaper solution right at the end of ME1?

 

I probably have done both shortly after Horizon then... I just don't necessarily remember everything perfectly off the top of my head at my age now.

[themikefest]

Did Hackett give her the dog tags?

According to Liara, he did
 

"It took some digging, but I recovered your tags."

She only says that if you romance her
 

what does that have to do with your criticisms of Hackett for not sending her out to search for a Reaper solution right at the end of ME1?

What changed for him to ask her later to help find a way to stop the reapers?

[The Elder King]

That's a poor excuse. He could've gone behind their backs, got a shuttle for Joker to use to take Liara, Garrus and VS and whoever else to go to Ilos, Eden Prime to find any clues. Even asking Hackett to give permission to study the archive on Mars.

You do recall that the moment the squad was dismissed they all went in different ways?

Again, Ilos was examinated again. They didn't find anything. Vigil was already shut down. Liara's presence wouldn't have mattered, otherwise as she searched for informations or Mars she'd have sent some of the Shadow Broker's agents on Ilos when she became the SB. 

Eden Prime, yes, they could've found Javik (though nothing suggests that the Alliance didn't search and continued to search after Shepard's death), but Javik, as Bioware decided, turns out to not have any info to defeat the Reapers.

Mars is the only place were (Conveniently) there was something. Liara did eventually go there before the start of ME3, but she was busy before, so we wasn't available for Anderson or Hackett, and the Alliance already had a presence there and they likely were searching for any additional Prothean technologies, if not for stopping the Reapers to gain some technological advantage.

 

 

This discussion has no sense though. I never state Anderson or Hackett did everything they could for stopping the Reapers (I think they did most then the rest of the Alliance and Council though). The discussion started only because I meant to say the Alliance's stance on Shepard wasn't that different then the Council, with a few exceptions that believed in Shepard. I never meant to say those exceptions did a good job or their best.

[The Elder King]

According to Liara, he did
 

She only says that if you romance her
 

What changed for him to ask her later to help find a way to stop the reapers?

She was available to help while she wasn't before.

Or more simply, it was necessary for how Bioware crafted their story in discovering the way to end the Reapers only when they were already here. I mean, things would've been really easy if everyone believed Shepard and planned to stop them.