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[KaiserShep]

I think it was cool too, as far as the Reaper story goes. "He could have never controlled us.... because we controlled him."

 

But like Saren, I could see TIM be just as interesting in a non-Reaper story. The whole setting still had a lot of potential without the Reapers.

Of course, the entire setting would also have to be rewritten from top to bottom without them. Like, a galaxy-spanning civilization can't just vanish, leaving all of its technology intact behind. There had to be some reason why they abandoned a giant life-sustaining space station and an interstellar superhighway. If it wasn't the reapers specifically, it'd just be some other ancient evil that did them in, and is now coming back for us. 

[straykat]

Of course, the entire setting would also have to be rewritten from top to bottom without them. Like, a galaxy-spanning civilization can't just vanish, leaving all of its technology intact behind. There had to be some reason why they abandoned a giant life-sustaining space station and an interstellar superhighway. If it wasn't the reapers specifically, it'd just be some other ancient evil that did them in, and is now coming back for us. 

 

They had a lot of ideas apparently. The only sure thing was they were making sci-fi at first.

 

I think the Reapers were Drew K's idea.. his "aha moment". But it had no longevity to it. It's like crapping in your own nest. Or however the saying goes.

[Seraphim24]

That's what destroyed the last setting. It was silly.

 

I don't play sci-fi to deal with the actions/mistakes of ancient civilizations. Not AGAIN at least. I like sci-fi when it examines the big "what ifs" of our technology or evolutionary potential. Not when it reduces us to scavengers.

 

Mostly though, it was lame because it added the Reapers on top of it.

 

Well I see we can agree to disagree here.

 

But honestly I'm slightly puzzled as to why you would gravitate towards ME in the first place then?   There are lots of things that don't involve that sort of thing.

[Sareh]

I hope they avoid any prophetic or generalized message like in ME1, ME2, ME3

 

Techno-zombies? The overuse of technology leading to one "losing" ones soul or Collectors for example?

Playing god and creating Synthetic life aka Geth or genophage or uplifting?
Techno-terrorists cerberus?

Shepard? Or "the Shepard" aka being space jesus?

Becoming a cyborg is something bad?

All it being told like a tale or fairytale in the stargazer scene?

And so on...

 

Most of these things contrary to my own beliefs. In principle, the player should have the choice to be orthodox human or want to be completely transhuman, with extensive body modifications. Lets say this leads to some characters being afraid of you and some being intimidated and so on.

 

Its far into the future.  Fully fledged cyborgs or exosuits would be great. Also, a tracked mako please. Wheels arent that good for traversing alien terrain, especially when weight isnt an issue.

 

Both types of weapons, with relload and cooldown mechanics.  and so on.

[Dean_the_Young]

Of course, the entire setting would also have to be rewritten from top to bottom without them. Like, a galaxy-spanning civilization can't just vanish, leaving all of its technology intact behind. There had to be some reason why they abandoned a giant life-sustaining space station and an interstellar superhighway. If it wasn't the reapers specifically, it'd just be some other ancient evil that did them in, and is now coming back for us. 

 

'Ascended to a hire plane of existence' is occasionally a good one. You can even put your own twist to inevitability theories to it- that as technology advances (particularly to the point of cybernetics and indoctrination) and galactic power centralizes, that the Central Government decides that the best choice is to upload everyone into gestalt AIs.

 

Reapers could be what the Protheans chose to become, rather than what killed them- the logical next step of transhumanism, with a centralized galactic empire with integrated cybernetics and indoctrination tech able to 'convince' everyone to go along with it (and take the unenlightened few along with them, of course).

 

Think of it as a metaphor for the centralization of power and technology. The galaxy gets linked by relays, everyone gets linked by tech, and cynical/self-interested governments inevitably abuse indoctrination to pacify the masses/convince foes/eradicate dissent, and let technology runaway and lead 'ascension.'

 

At which point they realize, hey, we did what everyone else did, and the Reapers sit around in their own little worlds while the galaxy repeats the cycle. First the relays, then cybernetics, then indoctrination... over and over again, each cycle continuing until the people in control of everyone else decide 'hey, let's make a Reaper.'

[Laughing_Man]

Think of it as a metaphor for the centralization of power and technology. The galaxy gets linked by relays, everyone gets linked by tech, and cynical/self-interested governments inevitably abuse indoctrination to pacify the masses/convince foes/eradicate dissent, and let technology runaway and lead 'ascension.'

 

At which point they realize, hey, we did what everyone else did, and the Reapers sit around in their own little worlds while the galaxy repeats the cycle. First the relays, then cybernetics, then indoctrination... over and over again, each cycle continuing until the people in control of everyone else decide 'hey, let's make a Reaper.'

 

But that would work only with the development path trap the Reapers used in the original story; in your version, the Protheans would have little interest in making sure other civilizations follow their footsteps, they achieved "ascension", and everyone else can plow themselves.

 

They would need to waste time and effort to seed remnants of technology practically all over the galaxy if they wanted to ensure that everyone follows them.

 

I just can't see what their motive would be for all this.

[78stonewobble]

Uhm... Is it just my interpretation or didn't ashley have a decent daddy issue free relationship with family?

 

Apart from the "family career curse" thing, but I wouldn't really call that a daddy issue? Or maybe that's just me.

 

...

 

In general... to themes and recurring plot elements.

 

Keep.It.Simple.Stupid!

 

Keep the themes simple and universal... the story can be convoluted and surprising... sure.. but keep the themes relatable.

 

...

 

If you try to make it complicated... we're gonna put our nitpick caps on and overthink the hell out of it (involuntarily!) and it better be damn near perfect then... and why put that kinda pressure on yourself and us?

[Addictress]

Uhm... Is it just my interpretation or didn't ashley have a decent daddy issue free relationship with family?

Apart from the "family career curse" thing, but I wouldn't really call that a daddy issue? Or maybe that's just me.

That must've been why she was so boring in my eyes

[78stonewobble]

That must've been why she was so boring in my eyes

 

... Well, not to go into that... She served to even out the dady issue thing for me...  

[Addictress]

Wait, so....what about Samara? Where are the daddy issues there? Are you saying Samara was the daddy in her Asari couple?

[Addictress]

Why would Jack have daddy issues? Are you saying Cerberus was her daddy?

[correctamundo]

Here's something else I thought of now that I have coffee in my system. I apologize if this has already been brought up and I missed it.

I think the whole "ancient technology is better than current technology" theme is beyond tired for me. I know that it's a very common trope in too many RPGs. In these games, the people keep finding ancient ruins in another country/planet and it almost always advances humanity (or whatever race.) It makes me feel like they've haven't really earned it.

Plus, I wonder how all of this stuff is so user friendly, despite hundreds or thousands of years old. Finally, it almost always heralds some kind of cataclysmic event that will throw the entire world/galaxy into a huge war.

I've seen this for over 20 years in RPGs, and it's starting to sound like a cheap excuse to start a plot. Unfortunately, I know the chances of having that happen again in the ME games is very high. I'd prefer "Hey, we had our own breakthroughs and here's why it works" over "We found some ancient alien technology and now we can do these things."

 

It's way older than 20 yrs. ;-). And it's going to be a part of Andromeda as well, what with searching for remnant caches. Still humanity is making progress all on their own in other fields as well. Just look at the whole braindead concept post Shepard.

[bauzabauza]

"Are robots alive?" Seriously played out, especially the anthropomorphic nonsense version involving AI magically starting to manifest human emotions and wanting to become real boys.

It'll be there, though. An abandonment of the primary theme of the Shepard trilogy would be tantamount to admitting the utter garbage manner in how it was written in, and Mac probably has too much pride to do that.

 

then you dont like CHAPPiE g_g "malditos" quarians...

 

on topic: that lazy and horrible end with RGB colors please biower!!!! please!!!! anymore!!!!

[Grieving Natashina]

It's way older than 20 yrs. ;-). And it's going to be a part of Andromeda as well, what with searching for remnant caches. Still humanity is making progress all on their own in other fields as well. Just look at the whole braindead concept post Shepard.

Oh, I know. I'm a D&D geek and I've played Shadowrun, GURPS, and Cyberpunk 2020, and have been since 1988. I've seen it so often. Most of the GMs were pretty good at about avoiding that theme, but I still saw it come out. I figured that 20+ years was enough to make the point.

I would have rather seen humanity's ability to make progress within the game and not as an ending epilogue. While we got a few pictures, I think it violated the "Show, Don't Tell" philosophy in visual media. I was kinda hoping when I first played the game that the player could experience more of humanity's strides without ancient alien tech. Well, outside of TIM.

When it comes to the endings, I didn't think the concept of humanity carrying on after Shep was that brain dead. I felt like I lost a lot more brain cells during the Starbrat's rambling and childish speech. I have grown to seriously dislike epilogue slides for endings. I saw the pre-EC ending and I'd probably be furious too. Well, not with such passion 4 years later, but I get it well enough.

I don't usually post about the endings because I can see where some folks are coming from. Also, to say that this is a sore spot for a fair amount of posters is quite the understatement and I'd rather not accidentally kick a hornets nest on the BSN. I don't want to start a crap storm though over my opinon. I may not always agree, but I don't have to agree with someone (in general) to see the validity of their point.

[correctamundo]

Oh, I know. I'm a D&D geek and I've played Shadowrun, GURPS, and Cyberpunk 2020, and have been since 1988. I've seen it so often. Most of the GMs were pretty good at about avoiding that theme, but I still saw it come out. I figured that 20+ years was enough to make the point.

I would have rather seen humanity's ability to make progress within the game and not as an ending epilogue. While we got a few pictures, I think it violated the "Show, Don't Tell" philosophy in visual media. I was kinda hoping when I first played the game that the player could experience more of humanity's strides without ancient alien tech. Well, outside of TIM.

When it comes to the endings, I didn't think the concept of humanity carrying on after Shep was that brain dead. I felt like I lost a lot more brain cells during the Starbrat's rambling and childish speech. I have grown to seriously dislike epilogue slides for endings. I saw the pre-EC ending and I'd probably be furious too. Well, not with such passion 4 years later, but I get it well enough.

I don't usually post about the endings because I can see where some folks are coming from. Also, to say that this is a sore spot for a fair amount of posters is quite the understatement and I'd rather not accidentally kick a hornets nest on the BSN. I don't want to start a crap storm though over my opinon. I may not always agree, but I don't have to agree with someone (in general) to see the validity of their point.

 

I'm with you =) More or less. I don't have a lot of problems with the trilogy ending. I have read most of the books they used for inspiration I think. But the brain-dead I was referring to was Shep being technically brain dead when s/he was spaced. Miranda should really write it up and send it in to Nature, Science and Cell.

[Dean_the_Young]

But that would work only with the development path trap the Reapers used in the original story; in your version, the Protheans would have little interest in making sure other civilizations follow their footsteps, they achieved "ascension", and everyone else can plow themselves.

 

They would need to waste time and effort to seed remnants of technology practically all over the galaxy if they wanted to ensure that everyone follows them.

 

I just can't see what their motive would be for all this.

 

It wouldn't be a motive- it'd be technological determinism. In the same way that capitalism provides economic order without a central plan, technological determinism offers a viewpoint of inevitability without deliberate intent.

 

It's not the Protheans care about what the galaxy after them does- it's that they don't, but the galaxy follows a predictable pattern. Species that engage in transhumanism- particularly cybernetics- gain advantages over those that don't. The governments discover indoctrination, and increasingly use it over time to further their own interests, even as it reduces the number of free actors and centralizes control to the most powerful groups, IE those most exploiting cybernetics and trans-humanism. It might take thousands of years, or tens of thousands, but the galactic civilization falls to the trans-speciests who go ahead with a unity mega-project.

 

Leaving the Relays and Citadel and ruins left  behind isn't a trap- it's just meaningless stuff they can't take with them when they ascend to the higher plane of existence. They're 'perfect' inventions- so self-maintaining that they outlast the cycles that use them- but individually all they do is facilitate the inevitable. Civilizations will rise, will discover mass effect physics, will create galactic civilization. Over enough time the transhumanists rise, indoctrination consolidates control, and civilization as a whole goes for Unity, leaving ruins behind that the next civilizations scavenge.

 

There's no plan or deliberate intent needed, any more than is needed to create trails through a woodline. People follow the easiest paths, and element zero + transhumanistic cybernetics + indoctrination would be one of them.

[Laughing_Man]

...

 

There's no plan or deliberate intent needed, any more than is needed to create trails through a woodline. People follow the easiest paths, and element zero + transhumanistic cybernetics + indoctrination would be one of them.

 

Well, I'm not so sure that element Zero + trans-humanism = Indoctrination.

 

Both because it seems in a different direction entirely on the technological development tree (the source seems to be the Leviathans, and we don't know how they do it.). And also, a technology like indoctrination is going to have some very passionate opponents that will fight against it with all they have, hell, you only need to show it to the public and you will have riots everywhere.

 

Technological development could reach a plateau and simply stop there, it could also develop suddenly in a completely different direction due to a major accidental discovery, there are many possibilities.

 

The point is, if you don't have the 50K years stopwatch reset, and no one is working to plant remnants of technology all over the place, technology might become very different, hell, they might not even discover Eezo if it's relatively rare in certain parts of the galaxy.

[Iakus]

Themes to be avoided:

 

1) Messianic characters:  They've been done to death.  Special Snowflake is understandable.  We are, after all, the protagonist of the story.  But for the love of the Enkindlers, lay off with "the Shepard" and that nonsense already!

 

2) Outcomes that lead to galaxy-sweeping changes.  Especially if you're going to insist on sequels.  We've already wrecked one galaxy, do we want humanity to become a swarm of space locusts, ravaging galaxies with their "big choices" before moving on to destroy another? 

 

3) Railroaded "bittersweet" endings, such as Chronoid's "hero dies for the greater good" example.  Guess what, people like different amounts of bitter and sweet.  If you're going to make choice-based narratives, you have to allow for that.  My bittersweet=/=your bittersweet=/=the next guy over's bittersweet.  

 

4) Spandex in space.  Really, Bioware, I thought you were more mature than sticking people (men and women both) in Stripperiffic outfits.

 

5) Inconsistent Space Magic.  Okay, I get that the setting has whole fields of science that quite simply don't exist in the real world.  the science fiction here isn't exactly hard.  And that's fine.  But please, please PLEASE at least keep your science fiction operating consistently!  Continuity is important in a narrative.

[Prince Enigmatic]

 

 

2) Outcomes that lead to galaxy-sweeping changes.  Especially if you're going to insist on sequels.  We've already wrecked one galaxy, do we want humanity to become a swarm of space locusts, ravaging galaxies with their "big choices" before moving on to destroy another? 

 

 

4) Spandex in space.  Really, Bioware, I thought you were more mature than sticking people (men and women both) in Stripperiffic outfits.

 

 

 

2 - YES! Outcomes really don't have to have galaxy wide consequences, they can still be as impactful if they affect only a small part of the galaxy, or even just a group of people. I don't understand how sometimes if there is a choice put in place, to hammer the impact and "feels" of the choice, you have to show a huge outcome that does inevitably wreck the future in terms of storytelling.

 

4 - Here's looking at you Miranda and Jacob...

[Seraphim24]

Themes to be avoided:

 

1) Messianic characters:  They've been done to death.  Special Snowflake is understandable.  We are, after all, the protagonist of the story.  But for the love of the Enkindlers, lay off with "the Shepard" and that nonsense already!

 

2) Outcomes that lead to galaxy-sweeping changes. 

 

3) Railroaded "bittersweet" endings, such as Chronoid's "hero dies for the greater good" example.  Guess what, people like different amounts of bitter and sweet.  If you're going to make choice-based narratives, you have to allow for that.  My bittersweet=/=your bittersweet=/=the next guy over's bittersweet.  

 

4) Spandex in space.  Really, Bioware, I thought you were more mature than sticking people (men and women both)

 

Dang, once again, most of those are favorites, well 1 I would quibble with "Messianic" as a term just because, 2 everything outside of "galaxy-sweeping changes" 4 Depends on the Spandex. Although 3 which I definitely have never liked.

 

The spandex depends on the exact nature of the spandex.

[correctamundo]

Wait!What? No Spandex? Are you mad?

 

 

Glorious spandex!

[frylock23]

 

The spandex depends on the exact nature of the spandex.

 

Maybe it means the asari pole dancers will be covered in edible latex this time around.

[Seraphim24]

Maybe it means the asari pole dancers will be covered in edible latex this time around.

 

Uhhh..............

 

I was thinking more along the lines of what it cover or doesn't cover.

 

But um.

 

uh---

[frylock23]

Uhhh..............

 

I was thinking more along the lines of what it cover or doesn't cover.

 

But um.

 

uh---

 

Lol, they are covered in spandex ... so if we get rid of it, they have to wear something. You know, sort of.

[yolobastien6412]

Lol, they are covered in spandex ... so if we get rid of it, they have to wear something. You know, sort of.

Do they?

I wouldn't be mad if there are no Asari strippers in Andromeda. Please give us something new