78 réponses à ce sujet

[Donquijote and 59 others]

For what reason Loghain didn't explored the tower of ishal then find out about the lower chambers to seal them?

Bioware really wanted to force the player to be arrowed by darkspawns in the tower eh?This DAO is sometime so illogical.

[Illegitimus]

He may have.  But one of the problems with Darkspawn is "they're good at digging".  

[thats1evildude]

They were checking them out. That's why the Tower of Ishal was off-limits.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

He may have. But one of the problems with Darkspawn is "they're good at digging".

They only opened an hole into the wall but the lower chambers they used to enter the tower were not guarded.

[Ghost Gal]

I always took that as a sign of Loghain's betrayal. The Tower of Ishal just happened to be off-limits and "inspected" by Loghain's men before the battle, then Loghain's battle strategy just happened to involve splitting up Cailan's forces and his own, with Cailan's forces in the thick of danger and his safely out of danger, while Loghain's forces just happened to rely on a scout to light a signal on top of the Temple of Ishal let his men know when to charge. Then the tower just happens to flood with darkspawn two seconds after the battle (who could guess why?), making it so the signal can't get lighted, so Loghain's men conveniently never get the signal to charge, so he could comfortably withdraw without suspicion.

 

I always thought the Warden and Alistair getting assigned to the tower was what threw a wrench in Loghain's well-oiled plan. If his men had been tasked with lighting the tower like his plan originally called for, they could have sat back and told everyone, "The tower flooded with darkspawn. There's nothing we could have done." But you and Alistair fought your way through the darkspawn anyway and managed to light the signal, albeit a little later than anticipated. This forced Loghain to retreat on the spot depite getting the signal like his underlings anticipated, which caused "WTF?" reactions from Ser Cauthrien and his soldiers, which sewed the seeds of doubt of his betrayal, regicide, usurpation, and power-grab that spread through the kingdom and led to civil war. (Not helped by you and Alistair surviving Ostagar and gathering forces to fight the Blight, giving people who resent Loghain's treason and usurpation another banner to unite behind.)

 

I'll bet that was the case in earlier story drafts, but then the devs decided they wanted Loghain to be an innocent little bunny, but didn't really remove the seeds of betrayal they'd already sewed in previous story drafts.

[German Soldier]

I always took that as a sign of Loghain's betrayal. The Tower of Ishal just happened to be off-limits and "inspected" by Loghain's men before the battle, then Loghain's battle strategy just happened to involve splitting up Cailan's forces and his own, with Cailan's forces in the thick of danger and his safely out of danger, while Loghain's forces just happened to rely on a scout to light a signal on top of the Temple of Ishal let his men know when to charge. Then the tower just happens to flood with darkspawn two seconds after the battle (who could guess why?), making it so the signal can't get lighted, so Loghain's men conveniently never get the signal to charge, so he could comfortably withdraw without suspicion.

I always thought the Warden and Alistair getting assigned to the tower was what threw a wrench in Loghain's well-oiled plan. If his men had been tasked with lighting the tower like his plan originally called for, they could have sat back and told everyone, "The tower flooded with darkspawn. There's nothing we could have done." But you and Alistair fought your way through the darkspawn anyway and managed to light the signal, albeit a little later than anticipated. This forced Loghain to retreat on the spot depite getting the signal like his underlings anticipated, which caused "WTF?" reactions from Ser Cauthrien and his soldiers, which sewed the seeds of doubt of his betrayal, regicide, usurpation, and power-grab that spread through the kingdom and led to civil war. (Not helped by you and Alistair surviving Ostagar and gathering forces to fight the Blight, giving people who resent Loghain's treason and usurpation another banner to unite behind.)

I'll bet that was the case in earlier story drafts, but then the devs decided they wanted Loghain to be an innocent little bunny, but didn't really remove the seeds of betrayal they'd already sewed in previous story drafts.

This is in conflict with Loghain advice for Cailan when he asked him to remain with him and also with the fact that Loghain's plan
never involved a charge to the darkspawns,it was Cailan here who charged in open field and abandoned the walls bottle-neck of Ostagar and forced Loghain to leave in order to not be sandwiched by the darkspawns who were coming from behind the korkari wilds.
The betrayal came later when he out of paranoia accused the GW to be part of some Orlesian plot.
I think the tower of Ishal was a case of bad writing because it was never explained why nobody noticed those chambers.

[straykat]

I think it was a dumb, impulsive move on Loghain's part...right there, when you lit the beacon. Because like German Soldier said, he tried to advise against Cailan when they were planning.

 

Perhaps part of him was maliciously trying to prove a point. "Lets see how the Wardens can save you now, you jackass."

 

On a HUGE sidenote, I think Loghain is lashing out at the whole setting. No matter how much balls you show, how much courage in battle, how much strategy, how much cleverness... the world will dismiss you in favor of "legends". Both the fans and the inhabitants are mostly fools like Cailan.

 

"Which one of you fought when they were raping your wives?!"

 

"How dare you!!"

 

 

So yeah.. that's his real motivation. He hates Dragon Age.

[German Soldier]

On a HUGE sidenote, I think Loghain is lashing out at the whole setting. No matter how much balls you show, how much courage in battle, how much strategy, how much cleverness... the world will dismiss you in favor of "legends". Both the fans and the inhabitants are mostly fools like Cailan.

"Which one of you fought when they were raping your wives?!"

"How dare you!!"


So yeah.. that's his real motivation. He hates Dragon Age.

I think this is a vital part of Loghain,he don't like legends and tales when they are build upon myths in history, in which he remind me of Solas when he said about legends that the wise do not mistake one for the others.

[Lezio]

This is in conflict with Loghain advice for Cailan when he asked him to remain with him and also with the fact that Loghain's plan
never involved a charge to the darkspawns,it was Cailan here who charged in open field and abandoned the walls bottle-neck of Ostagar and forced Loghain to leave in order to not be sandwiched by the darkspawns who were coming from behind the korkari wilds.
The betrayal came later when he out of paranoia accused the GW to be part of some Orlesian plot.
I think the tower of Ishal was a case of bad writing because it was never explained why nobody noticed those chambers.

 

Eh, i'm not of the same opinion

Loghain's behavior during the war council makes me believe that his betrayal was already in motion but that he also genuinely didn't want to act on it, he didn't want to get his friend's son killed, he simply wanted him to listen.

In fact, if you notice, Loghain goes completely dark faced only once Cailan mentions waiting for Orlais' troops, because, i believe, that was the moment Loghain completely succumbed to his paranoia and just 100% branded Cailan a traitor. The wardens, i think, were just a easy scapegoat, the true enemy for him were Cailan and his dealings with Orlais

 

Something to discuss is: who came up with the plan to get close and personal with the darkspawn? I mean, the whole point of Ostagar was that it was an easily defendable position and that it had hugeass walls. Charging at the enemy meant fighting on even ground, in a swamp, when they could have had all the advantages provided by the fortification

 

Personally i'm quite indecisive on this. I can easily see Cailan completely overriding Loghain's best advice and deciding to "be the hero", but i can also see Loghain setting up the whole thing to specifically get Cailan killed

[Illegitimus]

This is in conflict with Loghain advice for Cailan when he asked him to remain with him and also with the fact that Loghain's plan
never involved a charge to the darkspawns,

 

 

Yes it did.  Or at least we have no reason to think that it didn't.  Duncan did not say "Hey wait, that wasn't the plan!"

[straykat]

I think this is a vital part of Loghain,he don't like legends and tales when they are build upon myths in history, in which he remind me of Solas when he said about legends that the wise do not mistake one for the others.

 

I don't remember what Solas said..

 

But this is the part of Loghain I sympathize with. There's no place in this world for simple farmboys turned soldiers, through sheer badassery. The actual people who win wars are people like Loghain. But in this setting, it's all about magic and legends and various other bullshit. The people who write it are dorks who would rather prop up the unreal. That's why DAI sucks so badly. It's the culmination of this.

[Qis]

This is in conflict with Loghain advice for Cailan when he asked him to remain with him and also with the fact that Loghain's plan
never involved a charge to the darkspawns,it was Cailan here who charged in open field and abandoned the walls bottle-neck of Ostagar and forced Loghain to leave in order to not be sandwiched by the darkspawns who were coming from behind the korkari wilds.
The betrayal came later when he out of paranoia accused the GW to be part of some Orlesian plot.
I think the tower of Ishal was a case of bad writing because it was never explained why nobody noticed those chambers.

 

No, the plan is Cailan troop and Grey Wardens hold the line, then Loghain troop flank it, that's the original plan, and it was planned by Loghain. It just that Loghain make a ruse about Cailan want to appear a hero, Loghain KNOW Cailan, all he do is making it "look like an accident"...he know Cailan want to be a hero in the front line but still making a battle plan Cailan being put at the front line...he could make it other way if he really want to save Cailan.

 

He know the tower will be filled with Darkspawn, he say nothing about it at the war meeting, but instead suggesting to light the beacon at the tower. Alistair and The Warden being put into the plan is by Cailan, but Loghain don't expect it will give any difference, he don't believe in the legend about Grey Warden might against darkspawn anyway. Alistair and The Warden survive is because of Flemeth.

[straykat]

I get the feeling that anyone who thinks Loghain masterminded all of this also believes in other conspiracy theories.

 

It's a whole mindset thing. I can't do it.

[Ash Wind]

IMHO... Because (flame on Loghain fans) the message from the Tower meant nothing to him. His betrayal of Cailan was premeditated. He wasn't going to perform the flanking attack, whether the beacon was lit or not. Cailan was going to be left to die. Being the soldier he was, he probably thought it a waste of time and manpower, as he and the remnants of his army would be leaving soon, signal or no signal. He almost seems unpleasantly surprised when the beacon was lit.

 

Its not a conspiracy theory... his demeanor at the end of the War Council cannot be denied, only apologist like to pretend that scene didn't take place. Nor his completely forgiving Howe's attack on Highever and rewarding him. Conspiracy theory LOL grow the **** up.

[straykat]

IMHO... Because (flame on Loghain fans) the message from the Tower meant nothing to him. His betrayal of Cailan was premeditated. He wasn't going to perform the flanking attack, whether the beacon was lit or not. Being the soldier he was, he probably thought it a waste of time and manpower. He almost seems unpleasantly surprised when the beacon was lit.

 

Why did he wait that long then? I think he was expecting something at least.

 

Like I said, I think he just made an impulsive (and bitter) decision right then and there. Also Cauthrien was surprised. She was one of his most trusted soldiers. Yet the guys in the Tower were in on his little plan? She defends him through thick and thin on everything.

[ModernAcademic]

I get the feeling that anyone who thinks Loghain masterminded all of this also believes in other conspiracy theories.

 

It's a whole mindset thing. I can't do it.

 

Exactly! In the words of Briala: I don't know which is better: that you think I'm all seeing or that you're trying so hard to play innocent and failing.

 

People are assuming Loghain is this diabollic machiavellian villain capable of plotting schemes that surpass human intelligence, even when we saw his weak attempt to pin the blame on the Wardens made him lose support from half the Bannorn and resulted in a Civil War. 

 

Oh dear...

[Ash Wind]

Why did he wait that long then? I think he was expecting something at least.

 

Like I said, I think he just made an impulsive (and bitter) decision right then and there. Also Cauthrien was surprised. She was one of his most trusted soldiers. Yet the guys in the Tower were in on his little plan? She defends him through thick and thin on everything.

Sorry, I don't buy it. We can agree to disagree...

 

Why he stays, I cannot say, maybe its part of his cover story, if he left right away he would look more like the traitor he was.

 

There is no denying the sinister look at the end of the War Council... it just screams... something is up.

 

And the look on his face when he orders the retreat, is one of absolute joy. If you don't have a save handy, youtube it... that is not the face of a man who is conflicted.... but one who just declared Victory.

 

And again, there are those who will justify anything Loghain does... his alliance with Howe thoroughly indicts his premeditation. There is no way Howe attacks Highever unless he knows before hand that Cailan will not survive Ostagar. Cailand even promises Warden Cousland that he will turn his armies north and bring Howe to Justice.

 

Howe HAS to know this, the only way he moves on Highever is if the conspiracy is in place. Howe has a small arling, Cailan vows to bring the Army of Ferelden down upon his head.

 

It would be like the Governor of Rhode Island killing the Governor of New York and claiming it as his own, and not expecting the President to bring a hammer down upon his head.

 

There's no way Howe moves on Highever without there being a plan in place. And instead of bringing Howe to justice, Loghain ignores his crime and rewards him with Denerim. Payment... for services rendered... Its all... part of the <wait for it> Plan.

[straykat]

I'm not denying the sinister look at the Council.

 

But I don't think he knew what to do yet. He's just sick of Cailan at that point.

 

The beacon flashed a lightbulb in his head, so to speak. I just don't think he's a mastermind. He just seized an opportunity.

[Lezio]

Howe HAS to know this, the only way he moves on Highever is if the conspiracy is in place. Howe has a small arling, Cailan vows to bring the Army of Ferelden down upon his head.

 

It would be like the Governor of Rhode Island killing the Governor of New York and claiming it as his own, and not expecting the President to bring a hammer down upon his head.

 

There's no way Howe moves on Highever without there being a plan in place. And instead of bringing Howe to justice, Loghain ignores his crime and rewards him with Denerim. Payment... for services rendered... Its all... part of the <wait for it> Plan.

 

Yeah, repeating what i said earlier, Loghain didn't think of the wardens as the enemy, he thought of Cailan as the enemy because of his dealing for Orlais.

The Couslands? It's stated somewhere in the game that Bryce had just been in Orlais, letters need someone to carry them so think about the ones found in Cailan's chest at Ostagar..... Yeah, Loghain may not have known about the content of the letters, but he definetely thought of the Couslands as traitors too, which is why he had Howe do his thing

 

It kind of makes me sad that Loghain staged such a plan, while Orlesians in Inquisition appear to be all simpletons

[Mike3207]

I think Loghain might have had suspicions-which is why he sent troops down to check it out and closed it off.

 

If he knew however, he would have pulled out his troops immediately-all of them. He's not going to put his army at risk for anyone, and he values the lives of each of his men. If that wasn't the case, he wouldn't have pulled out his troops at Ostagar.

[Qis]

Loghain not only want Cailan dead, but when Cailan suggest Alistair to lit the beacon, he don't mind, he want Alistair dead too...so two Maric's heir DEAD he can claim the throne...it's obvious.

[Iadro]

I don't think the tower basements being flooded with darkspawn was a Loghain plot - as far as I know, Loghain possesses no ability to command the darkspawn. And if it were just "flood the Tower of Ishal with 'spawn to cause chaos," that seems remarkably short-sighted for a lifelong soldier like Loghain - it simply doesn't match what the game tells us at all. Loghain is a general of men. He wouldn't entrust anything to anyone unless they were receiving direct orders from his lips  - see Uldred, Jowan, and Howe - all directly ordered about by Loghain, because he is THAT much of a control freak. He didn't count on Howe having ambitions of his own, though.

 

What I find far more iffy about the Ishal scenario is Duncan. We know that all heads of state are informed about the true nature of Blights, how and why only a Grey Warden can end them. Celene knows. I'd bet my Warden's five hundred plus sovereigns that the Archon of Tevinter is very familiar with exactly how to end a Blight. Anora knows that the joining is fatal - where did she get her information? The writers say Cailan told her. Yet Cailan doesn't know that a Warden, and only a Warden, can kill the Archdemon?

 

Cailan seems to be under the impression that he can lead the army in one glorious strike to end the darkspawn for good. He says he brought his personal sword "for the archdemon, should [it] show [itself]." He fights in the front lines, because he is totally convinced that is a possibility, and he is capable of doing as he says. Nobody says a word against this. We know Loghain hasn't a single clue about why the Wardens are necessary, and yet... 

 

...not a word from Duncan. Not a single thing. Loghain, supposedly Evil Incarnate, actually tries to tell Cailan not to throw himself at the enemy "we must attend to reality, Cailan!" yet Duncan, who stands right next to King, says absolutely nothing. 

 

Bizarre. And not very commendable or intelligent of Duncan, no matter what Alistair says.

[ThomasBlaine]

I think it's meant to be implied that the darkspawn dug their way into the sealed-off basements and then upwards until the ground floor caved in while the battle was underway and the tower only lightly manned. The pre-battle inspection came up with nothing because there wasn't a giant hole in the basement walls with darkspawn streaming in through it.

 

As for his decision to leave Cailan behind, I fully believe that it was just a matter of not throwing live soldiers after dead ones. Kings who insist on fighting on the frontlines die on the frontlines, Cailan was an idiot who got himself killed and Duncan did nothing but enable him. The signal beacon being delayed by Alistair and the Warden having to fight their way up through the tower instead of simply running up the steps might also have had something to do with it, though we don't know enough about the importance of Loghain's actual timing to say for sure.

 

 

Cailan seems to be under the impression that he can lead the army in one glorious strike to end the darkspawn for good. He says he brought his personal sword "for the archdemon, should [it] show [itself]." He fights in the front lines, because he is totally convinced that is a possibility, and he is capable of doing as he says. Nobody says a word against this. We know Loghain hasn't a single clue about why the Wardens are necessary, and yet... 

 

...not a word from Duncan. Not a single thing. Loghain, supposedly Evil Incarnate, actually tries to tell Cailan not to throw himself at the enemy "we must attend to reality, Cailan!" yet Duncan, who stands right next to King, says absolutely nothing. 

 

Bizarre. And not very commendable or intelligent of Duncan, no matter what Alistair says.

 

The Wardens' presence in the vanguard in and of itself shows criminal incompetence on Duncan's side. They're strong warriors, obviously, but a few dozens in a pitched battle against an opposing army? They're massacred by genlocks and hurlocks without ever seeing the Archdemon, in addition to actively drawing darkspawn towards the king's position.

 

If it wasn't for Cailan's bright idea to send Alistair and the protagonist as glorified messengers, Ferelden would have been doomed because Duncan never thought to tell him and Loghain to keep the Wardens in reserve for the Archdemon while the main army occupied the darkspawn horde.

[German Soldier]

 

 

Something to discuss is: who came up with the plan to get close and personal with the darkspawn? I mean, the whole point of Ostagar was that it was an easily defendable position and that it had hugeass walls. Charging at the enemy meant fighting on even ground, in a swamp, when they could have had all the advantages provided by the fortification

 

 

I had the impression that it was Cailan,after all he's the one who is making one mistake after the other during the battle like sending the dogs alone to be butchered, shoot only one wave of arrows and force the troops to charge in open field.

[German Soldier]

 

 

And again, there are those who will justify anything Loghain does... his alliance with Howe thoroughly indicts his premeditation. There is no way Howe attacks Highever unless he knows before hand that Cailan will not survive Ostagar. Cailand even promises Warden Cousland that he will turn his armies north and bring Howe to Justice.

 

Howe HAS to know this, the only way he moves on Highever is if the conspiracy is in place. Howe has a small arling, Cailan vows to bring the Army of Ferelden down upon his head.

 

 

I think Duncan already explained this part at the beginning of Ostagar to Cailan.

Howe intended to kill everyone without leaving witness thus later sell some lie to Cailan about what happened to the Cousland family, i don't think Howe wanted Cailan dead because there was no need for his death.

I never had the impression that Loghain trusted Howe rather that he needed him to not fight on two front lines the civil war

(Howe from the north,the bannorn at south)