78 réponses à ce sujet

[German Soldier]

 

 

The Wardens' presence in the vanguard in and of itself shows criminal incompetence on Duncan's side. They're strong warriors, obviously, but a few dozens in a pitched battle against an opposing army? They're massacred by genlocks and hurlocks without ever seeing the Archdemon, in addition to actively drawing darkspawn towards the king's position.

 

If it wasn't for Cailan's bright idea to send Alistair and the protagonist as glorified messengers, Ferelden would have been doomed because Duncan never thought to tell him and Loghain to keep the Wardens in reserve for the Archdemon while the main army occupied the darkspawn horde.

Thank you because this is actually something from whom i always questioned Duncan policies of leadership.

What kind of education he had in regard of being a commander?

we have few wardens that we need to kamikaze eventually the archdemon and we are using all of them in this way in the front line?

I think Alistair truly is wearing black and white perspective about Duncan,Loghain and the Grey wardens

[ThomasBlaine]

 

Thank you because this is actually something from whom i always questioned Duncan policies of leadership.

What kind of education he had in regard of being a commander?

we have few wardens that we need to kamikaze eventually the archdemon and we are using all of them in this way in the front line?

I think Alistair truly is wearing black and white perspective about Duncan,Loghain and the Grey wardens

 

 

Alistair is definitely idolizing Duncan and villainizing Loghain in his own mind. It's one of his more childish tendencies. Like many of the game's fans, he simply loves to hate and turn Loghain into the root of all Ferelden's troubles, ignoring Duncan's and Cailan's catastrophic folly, his own failure to light the beacon on time and the actual reasons behind many of Loghain's decisions, all of which he takes completely personally.

 

For example, blaming the Grey Wardens for the King's death. As one of the two Wardens left in the country who had nothing to do with any of the planning this is horribly unfair for you, the player character, but from Loghain's perspective he has to keep the country unified if he wants to defend it despite losing half the army to Cailan's attempt at glory. Using the organization he has strong historical reason to believe is controlled by the Orlesians, is all but gone from the country anyway through no fault of his, and is in fact mostly to blame for the catastrophy at Ostagar and the king's death as a scapegoat makes perfect sense.

 

Nobody(cough*duncan*cough) told him about ancient binding Grey Warden treatises that would be insanely useful to his war effort, or why the Wardens are said to be crucial to defeating the Archdemon. Throwing them under the bus is a win-win for him, the only ones who take a hit are some unfortunate conscript and Cailan's useless bastard brother, and if it helps him keep the country intact it'd be irresponsible and traitorous not to take that measure.

[sylvanaerie]

The problem with this is we don't know how much was left over from the original intent (to have Loghain actually working with the darkspawn himself--an old idea that got shelved early on from what I understand).  A lot of the old snippets of dialogue never got caught when the game was retooled and released.  Hence  you get idiotic comments when one of the NPCs says Alistair (who was born long after Rowan died) would have 'embarrassed Rowan because of Maric's philandering'.  Alistair was originally meant to be closer to 30 years in age, which would have made the comment make sense then it all got changed around and he ended up younger than Cailan.

 

So it may be that sinister, mustache twirly expression at the end of the warcouncil was originally meant as an early reveal of his less than sterling intent originally.  

 

Personally, I think the whole thing was plotted ahead as a contingency by Loghain.  Certainly his actions prior (poisoning Eamon) and after, (racing to Denerim and seizing the throne) cast aspersions on his motives/intent.  But I don't believe he fully intended to just throw Cailan and the wardens under a bus at he point of the warcouncil.  That it happens conveniently for him was just one of the things he had planned for and he took opportunity of.

 

And I personally believe all three leaders are responsible for Ostagar in equal measure.  Loghain, for not gaining enough intelligence on the enemy, and coming up with the ferkakta plan based on his limited darkspawn knowlege and tossing all the wardens and half the army under a bus.  Cailan for being an idiot gloryhound and pressing the fight despite Loghain and Duncan trying to convince him otherwise.  Duncan for not at least pulling them aside and letting them know he had treaties to get in more troops to help (who wouldn't be Orlesian--circumventing Loghain's big objection to reinforcements), or telling them just how he knew it was a Blight.  Not that there was any guarantee Loghain would believe him, but there was a missed opportunity there.

 

Personally, for me, Loghain was the more interesting of the antagonists in Origins, which is why he's the 'bad guy' in my playthroughs.  He's human, relatable, flawed and not a some boring old 'force of nature' boss fight like the archdemon was.  But I'd prefer to blame him for the things he actually does in the game, not dream up other things to pin on him.  

[German Soldier]

 

 

Nobody(cough*duncan*cough) told him about ancient binding Grey Warden treatises that would be insanely useful to his war effort, or why the Wardens are said to be crucial to defeating the Archdemon. Throwing them under the bus is a win-win for him, the only ones who take a hit are some unfortunate conscript and Cailan's useless bastard brother, and if it helps him keep the country intact it'd be irresponsible and traitorous not to take that measure.

Apparently with those pieces of papers anybody can fake of being a grey warden....

[Heimerdinger]

 

Thank you because this is actually something from whom i always questioned Duncan policies of leadership.

What kind of education he had in regard of being a commander?

we have few wardens that we need to kamikaze eventually the archdemon and we are using all of them in this way in the front line?

I think Alistair truly is wearing black and white perspective about Duncan,Loghain and the Grey wardens

 

 

You're putting more thought into this than the writers ever did. Bioware doesn't know/care about strategy, they pick whatever suits their storyline and roll with it. Wardens and Duncan need to be out of the way? Sure, then they are in the valley with the king and they're going to die.

[straykat]

Apparently with those pieces of papers anybody can fake of being a grey warden....

 

Carroll was right to question all along. And he really is the Queen of Antiva.

[ThomasBlaine]

You're putting more thought into this than the writers ever did. Bioware doesn't know/care about strategy, they pick whatever suits their storyline and role with it. Wardens and Duncan need to be out of the way? Sure, then they are in the valley with the king and they're going to die.

 

 

We can all agree that Bioware's writers aren't great at plot, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they outright improvise it.

[Aren]

Apparently with those pieces of papers anybody can fake of being a grey warden....

I don't think anyone in Thedas beside the Grey wardens and the dwarves can detect the authenticity of the documents,most of the allies in DAO trust your word directly you don't even need to show the treaties.

[straykat]

I don't think anyone in Thedas beside the Grey wardens and the dwarves can detect the authenticity of the documents,most of the allies in DAO trust your word directly you don't even need to show the treaties.

 

Not even an organization using the word "Inquisition" can do it.

[ThomasBlaine]

The problem with this is we don't know how much was left over from the original intent (to have Loghain actually working with the darkspawn himself--an old idea that got shelved early on from what I understand).  A lot of the old snippets of dialogue never got caught when the game was retooled and released.  Hence  you get idiotic comments when one of the NPCs says Alistair (who was born long after Rowan died) would have 'embarrassed Rowan because of Maric's philandering'.  Alistair was originally meant to be closer to 30 years in age, which would have made the comment make sense then it all got changed around and he ended up younger than Cailan.

 

So it may be that sinister, mustache twirly expression at the end of the warcouncil was originally meant as an early reveal of his less than sterling intent originally.  

 

Personally, I think the whole thing was plotted ahead as a contingency by Loghain.  Certainly his actions prior (poisoning Eamon) and after, (racing to Denerim and seizing the throne) cast aspersions on his motives/intent.  But I don't believe he fully intended to just throw Cailan and the wardens under a bus at he point of the warcouncil.  That it happens conveniently for him was just one of the things he had planned for and he took opportunity of.

 

And I personally believe all three leaders are responsible for Ostagar in equal measure.  Loghain, for not gaining enough intelligence on the enemy, and coming up with the ferkakta plan based on his limited darkspawn knowlege and tossing all the wardens and half the army under a bus.  Cailan for being an idiot gloryhound and pressing the fight despite Loghain and Duncan trying to convince him otherwise.  Duncan for not at least pulling them aside and letting them know he had treaties to get in more troops to help (who wouldn't be Orlesian--circumventing Loghain's big objection to reinforcements), or telling them just how he knew it was a Blight.  Not that there was any guarantee Loghain would believe him, but there was a missed opportunity there.

 

Personally, for me, Loghain was the more interesting of the antagonists in Origins, which is why he's the 'bad guy' in my playthroughs.  He's human, relatable, flawed and not a some boring old 'force of nature' boss fight like the archdemon was.  But I'd prefer to blame him for the things he actually does in the game, not dream up other things to pin on him.  

 

I had no idea about any notion of Loghain actively allying with the darkspawn in the development process, and see nothing in the game to suggest anything of the sort. I also saw no moustache-twirling after the warcouncil, just incredibly hamfisted foreshadowing and a very ugly and tired-looking Loghain glaring daggers at Cailan's stupidly cheerful back. But yeah, interpretation.

 

In my mind it's not a tenth as much Loghain's fault for not having planned around obscure darkspawn lore protected by a murder-discretion policy as it is Duncan's for explicitly withholding said information when it's needed the most. He wouldn't even have to convince Loghain, just Cailan who idolizes him like Alistair does. I doubt Cailan would be as excited at the prospect of certain death and doom personally going up against the Archdemon as he is at that fate being merely probable, and the idea of uniting the races of Ferelden would only feed his lust for glory. And in the end, how much badgering would it really take for Loghain to leave that one score of uncomfortably superstitious and potentially traitorous warriors out of his battle plans and letting them have first crack at the Archdemon should it appear?

 

Losing the Wardens at Ostagar is entirely Duncan's fault for not sharing or even acting on his crucial tactical knowledge, Cailan being a gloryhound just gets him killed and further destabilizes the country on top of everything else, and Loghain does nothing but what makes sense to him with the knowledge he is given, which includes wisely cutting their collective losses and preserving as many forces as he can to fight another day. It might well have been a contingency. He probably did expect Cailan to die simply because he insisted on being in the vanguard, regardless of other outcomes.

 

Seeing as Cailan and Anora hadn't produced an heir, Loghain must have been preparing to reinforce Anora's claim on the throne and step in himself if necessary at a moment's notice. He's probably been planning the takeover for years just in case Cailan went and died like his father. I hadn't considered that at all.

[Heimerdinger]

We can all agree that Bioware's writers aren't great at plot, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they outright improvise it.

 

No, they're OK with plot, as far as videogames go, but the tactical/strategy aspects are lacking or they simply don't care about it. That's why we got protagonists with lines like this: "We fight or we die, that's the plan."

[straykat]

No, they're OK with plot, as far as videogames go, but the tactical/strategy aspects are lacking or they simply don't care about it. That's why we got protagonists with lines like this: "We fight or we die, that's the plan."

 

That goes back to my point about Loghain "hating Dragon Age".

 

People like him don't belong in their games. Because the writers themselves don't appreciate warriors or military. Nor do they know how to write them. They prop up "legends" instead. They might be well meaning, but they're largely neckbeards.

 

I'd say the same for George RR Martin though. Look at his heroes: He props up the obese, little girls, eunuchs, and half-men. He kills off honor or regular soldiers. Or transforms soldiers into something depraved -- like Stannis. It's entertaining to a point, but it's heavy handed.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

No, they're OK with plot, as far as videogames go, but the tactical/strategy aspects are lacking or they simply don't care about it. That's why we got protagonists with lines like this: "We fight or we die, that's the plan."

The military strategist department of DAO is lacking but is still better than DAI(this sad) since in the entire game of the powerful army of the Inquisition we got to saw just a bunch of soldiers...

[German Soldier]

DAI(this sad) since in the entire game of the powerful army of the Inquisition we got to saw just a bunch of soldiers...

That's not the main issue,the entire military   setup is contrived bullshit in the  ending of that game.

You and your party are back in Skyhold but somehow the whole damn army is still trudging back from the Arbor Wilds. If I have to go alone, that means Cullen left NO RESERVES in the castle, which means Cullen is an idiot.

[sylvanaerie]

I had no idea about any notion of Loghain actively allying with the darkspawn in the development process, and see nothing in the game to suggest anything of the sort. I also saw no moustache-twirling after the warcouncil, just incredibly hamfisted foreshadowing and a very ugly and tired-looking Loghain glaring daggers at Cailan's stupidly cheerful back. But yeah, interpretation.

 

In my mind it's not a tenth as much Loghain's fault for not having planned around obscure darkspawn lore protected by a murder-discretion policy as it is Duncan's for explicitly withholding said information when it's needed the most. He wouldn't even have to convince Loghain, just Cailan who idolizes him like Alistair does. I doubt Cailan would be as excited at the prospect of certain death and doom personally going up against the Archdemon as he is at that fate being merely probable, and the idea of uniting the races of Ferelden would only feed his lust for glory. And in the end, how much badgering would it really take for Loghain to leave that one score of uncomfortably superstitious and potentially traitorous warriors out of his battle plans and letting them have first crack at the Archdemon should it appear?

 

Loosing the Wardens at Ostagar is entirely Duncan's fault for not sharing or even acting on his crucial tactical knowledge, Cailan being a gloryhound just gets him killed and further destabilizes the country on top of everything else, and Loghain does nothing but what makes sense to him with the knowledge he is given, which includes wisely cutting their collective losses and preserving as many forces as he can to fight another day. It might well have been a contingency. He probably did expect Cailan to die simply because he insisted on being in the vanguard, regardless of other outcomes.

 

Seeing as Cailan and Anora hadn't produced an heir, Loghain must have been preparing to reinforce Anora's claim on the throne and step in himself if necessary at a moment's notice. He's probably been planning the takeover for years just in case Cailan went and died like his father. I hadn't considered that at all.

 

 

The expression Loghain has at the end of the war council is very 'mustache twirly evil' Simon le Gree style, but hell, I'll grant that's up for interpretation of the player.  I always read it as "oh we're screwed" from the first time I saw it, whether you saw it that way or not.  Kind of the same thought I had the first time I heard Tim Curry's voice doing Rendon Howe and thought "Oh this guy is gonna be vile".  Some things just scream "Poo hit the fan" right off.  But then my poo-meter has been highly refined by watching years of daytime dramas on tv.

 

I lay blame one third equally for Ostagar to all three leaders.  Cailan used Loghain's paranoia/hatred of Orlais against him to push for the battle, rushing them into something they really weren't prepared for.  Loghain wasn't listening even when Duncan would bring up the archdemon "our scouts have seen no dragons in the wilds" and one of the scouts who will warn you the numbers are greater than they were expecting is sitting on his ass in the infirmary, ignored.  I'm talking active intelligence not obscure darkspawn lore.  And Duncan, while he only just got the treaties, doesn't even bring them up at the war council, and any comments he makes about dragons are poo-pooed by Cailan as "you can handle it" and Loghain as "I don't believe you".

 

Loghain tossed the wardens under a bus because he never trusted them in the first place and felt they weren't required for the end of the Blight (joke's on him, because they are). 

 

Maybe it should just be laid down as all three epically failed at communication if you don't want to actively blame your hero for his own actions.  

[ThomasBlaine]

The expression Loghain has at the end of the war council is very 'mustache twirly evil' Simon le Gree style, but hell, I'll grant that's up for interpretation of the player.  I always read it as "oh we're screwed" from the first time I saw it, whether you saw it that way or not.  Kind of the same thought I had the first time I heard Tim Curry's voice doing Rendon Howe and thought "Oh this guy is gonna be vile".  Some things just scream "Poo hit the fan" right off.  But then my poo-meter has been highly refined by watching years of daytime dramas on tv.

 

I lay blame one third equally for Ostagar to all three leaders.  Cailan used Loghain's paranoia/hatred of Orlais against him to push for the battle, rushing them into something they really weren't prepared for.  Loghain wasn't listening even when Duncan would bring up the archdemon "our scouts have seen no dragons in the wilds" and one of the scouts who will warn you the numbers are greater than they were expecting is sitting on his ass in the infirmary, ignored.  I'm talking active intelligence not obscure darkspawn lore.  And Duncan, while he only just got the treaties, doesn't even bring them up at the war council, and any comments he makes about dragons are poo-pooed by Cailan as "you can handle it" and Loghain as "I don't believe you".

 

Loghain tossed the wardens under a bus because he never trusted them in the first place and felt they weren't required for the end of the Blight (joke's on him, because they are). 

 

Maybe it should just be laid down as all three epically failed at communication if you don't want to actively blame your hero for his own actions.  

 

If we both had to cross the street and I knew there was an invisible, inaudible van driving at a hundred miles an hour headed toward us and you didn't, and all I did was make vague complaints that one should be careful in traffic, would I not very much be the one to blame for walking us both to our deaths simply because I didn't act on my crucial intelligence? I'm sure if you had super-awareness and somehow extrapolated the van's existence or decided that crossing the street was inherently too dangerous we might have lived, but are you anywhere near as culpable as I am?

 

Having re-watched the conversation with Loghain's tent guard, I agree that Cailan is the one pushing for the huge legendary battle. We also know that at least one of Loghain's scouting parties, including Fergus Cousland, has disappeared, and the soldier in the infirmary is clearly delirious with darkspawn sickness. I don't see that you can give Loghain a third of the blame for the whole disaster simply for "not scouting properly", not trusting insane witnesses and not pulling information out of his ass when there's someone standing right beside him who has invaluable information that would immediately change the facts of the battle, knows how important it is, and says jack.

 

Calling it "epically failed communication" is still understating it, Duncan outright sabotages the tactical process by not even trying to make his knowledge heard.

 

I have no problem blaming Loghain for those of his actions that aren't perfectly sensible, but even giving him equal rather than full credit for Ostagar is monstrously unfair from where I'm standing and not the generous and objective stance you seem to think it is. It's just hilarious to see people bending over backwards to treat him as the villain even in the instances where he's doing nothing wrong. Joke's on Duncan for getting himself and nearly everybody else killed, not Loghain for not being omniscient.

[Illegitimus]

 

 

 

Calling it "epically failed communication" is still understating it, Duncan outright sabotages the tactical process by not even trying to make his knowledge heard.

 

 

Duncan had no unexpressed information whatsoever that would have changed the outcome of the battle.  

[German Soldier]

Duncan had no unexpressed information whatsoever that would have changed the outcome of the battle.

Yes he could have try to reveal why GW are necessary thus put doubts in Loghain's mind so that he would have not allowed to all the Gw to be in the front line with Cailan and Cailan would have probably decide to remain with Loghain and the Gw to wait for the archdemon, thus no civil war.
This is a valid theory.

[Seraphim24]

Loghain made a valid strategic retreat, then he decided to fairly callously/panic/paranoia murder some people without really a great reason to support those conclusions.

 

Mired in the resulting unrest and panic (due, in no small part, to things like the Darkspawn invasion, not necessarily his own actions, threat of invasion from Orlais etc), he continues to panic and does some more fairly unconscionable things. However, he is also successful at leading at this time to a degree.

 

Finally, at the apex of his flagrant errors and successes, he does a kind of "mea Culpa" on the stones of.. uh.. Stone castle thingy, Landsmeet!

 

The warden weighs both the good and bad, and decides that Loghain should become a Grey Warden, so as to prevent "Demon baby" there must be a GW sacrifice, but considering part of it was Loghain's mess to begin with and how he handled it, it ends up being his time to save himself, and he dies in a heroic manner to save Ferelden, the country he is attached to most of all.

 

At least, that' show it goes in my game =-)

[Illegitimus]

Yes he could have try to reveal why GW are necessary thus put doubts in Loghain's mind so that he would have not allowed to all the Gw to be in the front line with Cailan and Cailan would have probably decide to remain with Loghain and the Gw to wait for the archdemon, thus no civil war.
This is a valid theory.

 

Not a chance.  Because Loghain wouldn't believe an Orlesian agent.  Also the Wardens had to be on the front line.  They were the bait.  

[ThomasBlaine]

Not a chance.  Because Loghain wouldn't believe an Orlesian agent.  Also the Wardens had to be on the front line.  They were the bait.  

 

Cailan would have believed it on the spot, instantly connecting it with all the pieces of lore he must have gathered about previous Blights - why the first Blight took so long before the Tevinters devised the Joining formula, why none of the four previous slayers of the Archdemons survived the event - and jumping at the chance to learn more. Loghain might not have liked it, but Duncan would definitely have been able to convince Cailan if he'd had the guts to spill his treasured Grey Warden secrets and dash the young man's hopes for an immediate legendary battle of awesomeness by explaining how a Blight is actually ended, what priorities to keep in mind and what their new options for gathering local, Fereldan allies to the war effort consist of.

 

Cailan and Loghain understanding the necessity of it would also free Duncan to recruit much more aggressively, something he should have been doing for the previous fifteen years or so in any case. And if the Wardens were so necessary for luring the darkspawn in then sending a quarter or more to start enforcing those treatises and putting twice as many knights and soldiers in the gorge to reinforce their position and keep them - and the king - alive would have worked just as well, and likely lengthened the timespan in which Loghain would have felt comfortable committing to the charge without it being pointless.

[Illegitimus]

Cailan would have believed it on the spot, instantly connecting it with all the pieces of lore he must have gathered about previous Blights - why the first Blight took so long before the Tevinters devised the Joining formula, why none of the four previous slayers of the Archdemons survived the event - and jumping at the chance to learn more. Loghain might not have liked it, but Duncan would definitely have been able to convince Cailan if he'd had the guts to spill his treasured Grey Warden secrets and dash the young man's hopes for an immediate legendary battle of awesomeness by explaining how a Blight is actually ended, what priorities to keep in mind and what their new options for gathering local, Fereldan allies to the war effort consist of.

 

Cailan and Loghain understanding the necessity of it would also free Duncan to recruit much more aggressively, something he should have been doing for the previous fifteen years or so in any case. And if the Wardens were so necessary for luring the darkspawn in then sending a quarter or more to start enforcing those treatises and putting twice as many knights and soldiers in the gorge to reinforce their position and keep them - and the king - alive would have worked just as well, and likely lengthened the timespan in which Loghain would have felt comfortable committing to the charge without it being pointless.

 

Cailan isn't the one who needs to be convinced.  After all, he's already fully willing to believe that you need a Grey Warden to kill the archdemon.  He doesn't need the mechanical details and they wouldn't have convinced Cailan that he couldn't expect a legendary battle of awesomeness.  And since Cailan airily dismissed the idea of waiting for Eamon's troops it seems unlikely he'd want to wait longer for a single Dailish clan...who were the only actual new allies up for grabs.  The Dwarves would have come to Cailan's call were it not for being bogged down with a small case of regicide.  The mages already were coming.  But really the only reason why the wardens needed the treaties is because they were soon to not have the King's support and so needed some other source of legitimacy.  And Loghain's main reason for not feeling comfortable committing to the charge was "If I charge, the wardens might live and continue their fiendish scheme to turn Ferelden over to the Orlesians".  

[sylvanaerie]

If we both had to cross the street and I knew there was an invisible, inaudible van driving at a hundred miles an hour headed toward us and you didn't, and all I did was make vague complaints that one should be careful in traffic, would I not very much be the one to blame for walking us both to our deaths simply because I didn't act on my crucial intelligence? I'm sure if you had super-awareness and somehow extrapolated the van's existence or decided that crossing the street was inherently too dangerous we might have lived, but are you anywhere near as culpable as I am?

 

Having re-watched the conversation with Loghain's tent guard, I agree that Cailan is the one pushing for the huge legendary battle. We also know that at least one of Loghain's scouting parties, including Fergus Cousland, has disappeared, and the soldier in the infirmary is clearly delirious with darkspawn sickness. I don't see that you can give Loghain a third of the blame for the whole disaster simply for "not scouting properly", not trusting insane witnesses and not pulling information out of his ass when there's someone standing right beside him who has invaluable information that would immediately change the facts of the battle, knows how important it is, and says jack.

 

Calling it "epically failed communication" is still understating it, Duncan outright sabotages the tactical process by not even trying to make his knowledge heard.

 

I have no problem blaming Loghain for those of his actions that aren't perfectly sensible, but even giving him equal rather than full credit for Ostagar is monstrously unfair from where I'm standing and not the generous and objective stance you seem to think it is. It's just hilarious to see people bending over backwards to treat him as the villain even in the instances where he's doing nothing wrong. Joke's on Duncan for getting himself and nearly everybody else killed, not Loghain for not being omniscient.

 

Whether sick or not, the soldier quite obviously isn't wrong in telling them there are more out there than expected since that's the whole argument behind the strategic retreat defense, yet he is ignored.  That's not 'obscure darkspawn lore', that's current intelligence on numbers.  At the very least it should have been investigated.  Loghain has a severe "I'm right, you're wrong" issue that keeps him from listening to others when he doesn't want to hear the truth, something he demonstrates repeatedly in his cutscenes when he fails to heed others' warnings (case in point: his argument with Howe/Anora later about the darkspawn sweeping over Ferelden).  I doubt Duncan 'an Orlesian warden/spy'--in Loghain's mind--would have been able to sway Loghain's mind on anything, short of dragging the archdemon out in front of him, but you seem content to heap everything on Duncan's head and excuse Loghain's flaws and contribution to the disastrous events at Ostagar.  I don't blame Loghain for everything, at Ostagar but I do hold him accountable for his own flaws and errors in the events.

 

So, from your posts I would have to say you do have a problem blaming Loghain for his actions, making this argument an pointless circle.

[ThomasBlaine]

Whether sick or not, the soldier quite obviously isn't wrong in telling them there are more out there than expected since that's the whole argument behind the strategic retreat defense, yet he is ignored.  That's not 'obscure darkspawn lore', that's current intelligence on numbers.  At the very least it should have been investigated.  Loghain has a severe "I'm right, you're wrong" issue that keeps him from listening to others when he doesn't want to hear the truth, something he demonstrates repeatedly in his cutscenes when he fails to heed others' warnings (case in point: his argument with Howe/Anora later about the darkspawn sweeping over Ferelden).  I doubt Duncan 'an Orlesian warden/spy'--in Loghain's mind--would have been able to sway Loghain's mind on anything, short of dragging the archdemon out in front of him, but you seem content to heap everything on Duncan's head and excuse Loghain's flaws and contribution to the disastrous events at Ostagar.  I don't blame Loghain for everything, at Ostagar but I do hold him accountable for his own flaws and errors in the events.

 

So, from your posts I would have to say you do have a problem blaming Loghain for his actions, making this argument an pointless circle.

 

You're saying that the man's testimony is obvious because what he has to say is already being taken into account tactically, yet he's being ignored? And that's why Loghain isn't thorough enough? You've really lost me now. What strategic retreat defense?

 

I'm not arguing that Loghain isn't single-minded, and that's a consequence of him being used to actually being right. Both The Stolen Throne and The Calling have schemes and plots and stupid risks that he spots long before anybody else, constantly forcing him to haul people's nuts out of the fire when they don't listen to his suspicions. And again, Duncan wouldn't have had to convince Loghain, just Cailan who adores him and has, to his credit, already demonstrated that he can stand up to Loghain if he really wants and needs to. And neither of them actually blow Duncan off, they just assume that he has all the Grey Warden stuff under control and he doesn't correct them even when asked. That's Duncan's obsession with secrecy and fear of disappointing Cailan getting in the way, not Loghain's close-mindedness.

 

Loghain allowed and made money off of slavery. Slavery is bad. Loghain supported slavery. Bad Loghain. There, do you take me seriously now that I've demonstrated the keen and uncanny objectivity of my perspective?

[Illegitimus]

You're saying that the man's testimony is obvious because what he has to say is already being taken into account tactically, yet he's being ignored? And that's why Loghain isn't thorough enough? You've really lost me now. What strategic retreat defense?

 

I'm not arguing that Loghain isn't single-minded, and that's a consequence of him being used to actually being right more often than not. Both The Stolen Throne and The Calling have schemes and plots and stupid risks that he spots long before anybody else, constantly forcing him to haul people's nuts out of the fire when they don't listen to his suspicions. And again, Duncan wouldn't have had to convince Loghain, just Cailan 

 

 

Just what is it that Duncan needed to convince Cailan of?  And what information did Duncan have to use to convince Cailan of it?