78 réponses à ce sujet

[German Soldier]

Not a chance.  Because Loghain wouldn't believe an Orlesian agent.  Also the Wardens had to be on the front line.  They were the bait.  

Duncan is not orlesian and Loghain didn't premeditated to kill the GW in Ostagar.

[Illegitimus]

Duncan is not orlesian and Loghain didn't premeditated to kill the GW in Ostagar.

 

You don't have to be Orlesian to be an Orlesian agent and who cares how long Loghain took to plan his abandonment of the Wardens?  

[Mike3207]

I believe the Orlesians did send in Wardens once the ban on having Wardens in Ferlden was lifted and Duncan was very slow on recruiting new Wardens. It would have been a fair charge that there was significant Orlesian influence with the Ferelden Wardens-before the Warden became Warden Commander.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Loghain not only want Cailan dead, but when Cailan suggest Alistair to lit the beacon, he don't mind, he want Alistair dead too...so two Maric's heir DEAD he can claim the throne...it's obvious.

Actually, Gaider confirmed he didn't want to kill Cailan and that Ostagar was doomed even if Loghain marched

[Illegitimus]

Actually, Gaider confirmed he didn't want to kill Cailan and that Ostagar was doomed even if Loghain marched

 

Invoking Word of God only works when you can link to the actual Word of God.  Apart from that:

 

A lot of people have killed people they were reluctant to kill.

Whether Ostagar actually was doomed is only important if Loghain had a copy of the script.  

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Invoking Word of God only works when you can link to the actual Word of God.  Apart from that:

 

A lot of people have killed people they were reluctant to kill.

Whether Ostagar actually was doomed is only important if Loghain had a copy of the script.  

ok so we are ignoring word of god because we need to give priority to headcanons.

Shh Loghain didn't wanted to kill cailan and he did not killed him.

[Illegitimus]

 

ok so we are dying word of god because we need to give priority to headcanons.

Shh Loghain didn't wanted to kill cailan and he did not killed him.

 

 

No, I'm saying that people repeating that they've heard Gaider said that does not establish that Gaider said that.  

 

https://en.wikipedia...hinese_whispers

 

Chinese whispers (or telephone in the United States^[1]) is a game played around the world,^[2] in which one person whispers a message to another, which is passed through a line of people until the last player announces the message to the entire group. Errors typically accumulate in the retellings, so the statement announced by the last player differs significantly, and often amusingly, from the one uttered by the first. Reasons for changes include anxiousness or impatience, erroneous corrections, the difficult-to-understand mechanism of whispering, and that some players may deliberately alter what is being said to guarantee a changed message by the end of the line

 

Loghain may not have killed Cailan.  But he certainly made no effort to save or otherwise help him.  Loghain is the man who, seeing a drowning victim, crosses his arms and says "It's his own damn fault" and lets him sink.  

[ThomasBlaine]

Cailan isn't the one who needs to be convinced.  After all, he's already fully willing to believe that you need a Grey Warden to kill the archdemon.  He doesn't need the mechanical details and they wouldn't have convinced Cailan that he couldn't expect a legendary battle of awesomeness.  And since Cailan airily dismissed the idea of waiting for Eamon's troops it seems unlikely he'd want to wait longer for a single Dailish clan...who were the only actual new allies up for grabs.  The Dwarves would have come to Cailan's call were it not for being bogged down with a small case of regicide.  The mages already were coming.  But really the only reason why the wardens needed the treaties is because they were soon to not have the King's support and so needed some other source of legitimacy.  And Loghain's main reason for not feeling comfortable committing to the charge was "If I charge, the wardens might live and continue their fiendish scheme to turn Ferelden over to the Orlesians".  

 

Cailan wouldn't know about the troubles in Orzammar, the mages aren't coming in full without the treatises or they would obviously all have been at Ostagar instead of the tiny minority Gregor grudgingly supplies if he's given a choice in the matter, and Cailan respects the Dalish pretty highly in his own "they say your people possess remarkable skill and honor" -way. I'd say that the image of all the races of Fereldan united under the Grey Wardens - and him - fighting an enormous battle would seem a lot more "glorious" than uncle Eamon arriving from Westcliffe to save his ass and steal the spotlight, wouldn't you?

 

"I truly believe that this is a real Blight. I sense the Archdemon somewhere. No, I can't tell you how or where. No, I don't know if it'll be in the battle, but we should take that possibility into acc- oh, right, no, that's what my men are here for, of course, I have it covered, don't worry."

 

That's pretty much as far as he gets in the game. Mumbling, vague, noncommittal. Now, how about:

 

"Look, Cailan we need to talk. Wardens can sense Darkspawn because we drink........... direct connection to the Archdemon's mind.... hear it giving its orders when I sleep...... a Blight won't end unless...... be catastrophic if a normal soldier got a lucky hit.... completely doom Fereldan.... impossible to locate again until... how the first Blight brought the Tevinter Empire to its knees........ so that's why it's crucial to have as many wardens as.... insane for us to put everybody at risk at the same.... recruit more..... need more manpower to properly.... have these treatises I just recovered.... unparalleled support.... incredible unity, strong leadership, or we're all... stem the tide of evil... your father told me about... Flemeth, from the legends...  oh yeah, btw, darkspawn love digging.. surprisingly coordinated.. pop up anywhere once a battle starts... better have the Teyrn secure all vital...."

 

Warden-lore-hungry Cailan would be caught hook, line and sinker, and lots of reinforcements from inside the borders who also wouldn't be Grey Wardens in addition to another excuse not to include the Wardens directly in his battle plans would leave Loghain very little to complain about.

 

Just what is it that Duncan needed to convince Cailan of?  And what information did Duncan have to use to convince Cailan of it?  

 

Duncan just needed to look Cailan the **** in the eye and tell him what he knew instead of beating around the bush and pretending to be on-board with a plan he knew was suicidal. He has no problem ripping people from their homes and extorting recruits from their dying parents, but showing a little spine in front of a stupid adoring king headed for ruin? Of course not, why would he.

 

Your statement that Loghain abandoning Cailan and the Wardens was for political reasons instead of tactical ones is entirely unsubstantiated, don't pretend that it's a fact, much less an argument in itself.

 

I do agree that Loghain probably doesn't consider Duncan a proper Fereldan, but luckily none of the strategies that would actually make sense would require him to trust the man personally.

[ThomasBlaine]

Also, link:

 

http://forum.bioware...mac-tir/page-18

 

Post #437, about halfway down the page:

 

The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain still wasn't certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had anticipated.

The decision, I think, was made at the moment Loghain saw the beacon lit. He prepared for the possibility, as he prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through with it until right then.

 

And #421 on the previous page:

 

I haven't read this entire thread, so forgive me for offering some input on something with incomplete knowledge, but my impression is that there is a question about Loghain's intentions prior to Ostagar? If so, I can shed some light on what my thoughts regarding it are. You can take them for what it's worth -- if there's no evidence of something in the game it's debateable whether that can be taken as truth, after all.

In my mind, Loghain did not go to Ostagar expecting to walk away from the battle. It was clear, however, that he and Cailan were already having profound disagreements -- mainly centering on Cailan's overtures to Orlais. Loghain was obviously moving to confront Cailan in some way, undercutting his access to allies and so forth. But did Loghain plan on killing Cailan? No, I don't think that. I think he was doing what Loghain does, and trying to ensure that when that moment of confrontation with Cailan came the battle was already won.

That said, he had been fighting the darkspawn for some time in the south with Cailan there, and had already seen what Cailan was capable of. I think he made preparations prior to that last battle for the possibility that he would have to walk away. He once made a promise to Maric that he would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up to you.

There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has. The burden does not rest entirely on his shoulders -- which, yes, is how he feels.

Hope that makes sense, although I understand the topic of conversation here has gone in a lot of different directions.

[Illegitimus]

Cailan wouldn't know about the troubles in Orzammar, the mages aren't coming in full without the treatises or they would obviously all have been at Ostagar instead of the tiny minority 

 

That isn't obvious at all.  The treaty was actually used to get the wardens past the Templars who would have otherwise stopped them.  There's no reason to think the treaty would have caused more mages to show up had it been shown to them before Ostagar.  The reason why they showed up in more force later is because both the mages and the templars were grateful to the Warden for saving them, and because the disaster at Ostagar and the spreading darkspawn threat meant that people were now much more desperate.  Bear in mind that the treaties only obligate people to come the aid of the Wardens in the event of the blight, and before Ostagar not even Cailan was convinced this was a blight.  

 

And no, Cailan didn't know about the troubles in Orzammar, and so he didn't know the treaty was needed to motivate them.  

 

 

 

 

That's pretty much as far as he gets in the game. Mumbling, vague, noncommittal. Now, how about:

 

"Look, Cailan we need to talk. Wardens can sense Darkspawn because we drink........... direct connection to the Archdemon's mind....

 

 So...you are slowly turning into darkspawn?  You're actually spreading the taint?  And the Archdemon might be able to read your minds or even influence them?  Wow.  I consider you so much more trustworthy now.  Do go on.  

 

 

 

be catastrophic if a normal soldier got a lucky hit.... completely doom Fereldan.... impossible to locate again until... how the first Blight brought the Tevinter Empire to its knees........ so that's why it's crucial to have as many wardens as....

 

Cailan wasn't stopping Duncan from recruiting.  He wasn't discouraging him at all.  Duncan was merely picky because he had a limited supply of Archdemon blood and didn't want to waste it on people who wouldn't be all that effective and/or didn't have a good chance of surviving the transition.  

 

 

anpower to properly.... have these treatises I just recovered.... unparalleled support.... incredible unity, strong leadership, or we're all... stem the tide of evil... your father told me about... Flemeth, from the legends...  oh yeah, btw, darkspawn love digging.. surprisingly coordinated.. pop up anywhere once a battle starts... better have the Teyrn secure all vital...."

 

 

Duncan doesn't know how tricky Darkspawn can get.  This is the first blight he's ever fought in and so far the darkspawn have been easily outmaneuvered suckers.  You can't blame him for not telling Cailan stuff Duncan doesn't even know.    And no.  Cailan was not going to wait for reinforcements.  The military successes he'd already had, had convinced him that they weren't needed and he had no taste for weeks of defensive siege warfare waiting for them.  Even if he didn't realize that the defensive position at Ostagar was untenable versus such strong diggers so his only real options for success was to attack or do a fighting retreat. 

 

 

 

Duncan just needed to look Cailan the **** in the eye and tell him what he knew instead of beating around the bush and pretending to be on-board with a plan he knew was suicidal. 

 

 

Except of course that Duncan knew no such thing.  

 

 

 

Your statement that Loghain abandoning Cailan and the Wardens was for political reasons instead of tactical ones is entirely unsubstantiated, don't pretend that it's a fact, much less an argument in itself.

 

 

We know that Loghain had political reasons to abandon him.  We know what those political reason are.  We do not know what Loghain's tactical reasons were.  We are not told that he got a report from scouts that the darkspawn were present in larger than anticipated numbers.  We know he couldn't see the battle because if he could see the battle then he wouldn't  need the signal from the tower of Ishbal.  We are not told that he sent a messenger to warn Cailan that the plan had to be abandoned.  His second in command had no idea anything was wrong until he ordered the retreat.

 

So the only reason to believe that Loghain retreated for tactical reasons is blind faith in Loghain's infallibility and moral rectitude.  

[ThomasBlaine]

That isn't obvious at all.  The treaty was actually used to get the wardens past the Templars who would have otherwise stopped them.  There's no reason to think the treaty would have caused more mages to show up had it been shown to them before Ostagar.  The reason why they showed up in more force later is because both the mages and the templars were grateful to the Warden for saving them, and because the disaster at Ostagar and the spreading darkspawn threat meant that people were now much more desperate.  Bear in mind that the treaties only obligate people to come the aid of the Wardens in the event of the blight, and before Ostagar not even Cailan was convinced this was a blight.  

 

And no, Cailan didn't know about the troubles in Orzammar, and so he didn't know the treaty was needed to motivate them.  

 

 

 

 So...you are slowly turning into darkspawn?  You're actually spreading the taint?  And the Archdemon might be able to read your minds or even influence them?  Wow.  I consider you so much more trustworthy now.  Do go on.  

 

 

Cailan wasn't stopping Duncan from recruiting.  He wasn't discouraging him at all.  Duncan was merely picky because he had a limited supply of Archdemon blood and didn't want to waste it on people who wouldn't be all that effective and/or didn't have a good chance of surviving the transition.  

 

 

 

Duncan doesn't know how tricky Darkspawn can get.  This is the first blight he's ever fought in and so far the darkspawn have been easily outmaneuvered suckers.  You can't blame him for not telling Cailan stuff Duncan doesn't even know.    And no.  Cailan was not going to wait for reinforcements.  The military successes he'd already had, had convinced him that they weren't needed and he had no taste for weeks of defensive siege warfare waiting for them.  Even if he didn't realize that the defensive position at Ostagar was untenable versus such strong diggers so his only real options for success was to attack or do a fighting retreat. 

 

 

 

Except of course that Duncan knew no such thing.  

 

 

 

We know that Loghain had political reasons to abandon him.  We know what those political reason are.  We do not know what Loghain's tactical reasons were.  We are not told that he got a report from scouts that the darkspawn were present in larger than anticipated numbers.  We know he couldn't see the battle because if he could see the battle then he wouldn't  need the signal from the tower of Ishbal.  We are not told that he sent a messenger to warn Cailan that the plan had to be abandoned.  His second in command had no idea anything was wrong until he ordered the retreat.

 

So the only reason to believe that Loghain retreated for tactical reasons is blind faith in Loghain's infallibility and moral rectitude.  

 

I give up, this is pointless. If you won't be convinced then that's your prerogative.

[Mike3207]

Well, that's really the case with most of these threads. Most people have set opinions on the game which are really very unlikely to be changed whatever anyone posts on the game. I can never use blood magic even if it has some effective skills that any mage can make use of, and I don't think anyone can convince me that blood magic is a good thing.

 

The most to hope for is that you make good points that even a die hard opponent concedes is worth reexamining certain parts of their canon. It's really the limit of what you can expect in a game forum like this one. If you could do more than that, the Loghain threads wouldn't stretch out for hundreds of pages.

[ThomasBlaine]

Well, that's really the case with most of these threads. Most people have set opinions on the game which are really very unlikely to be changed whatever anyone posts on the game. I can never use blood magic even if it has some effective skills that any mage can make use of, and I don't think anyone can convince me that blood magic is a good thing.

 

The most to hope for is that you make good points that even a die hard opponent concedes is worth reexamining certain parts of their canon. It's really the limit of what you can expect in a game forum like this one. If you could do more than that, the Loghain threads wouldn't stretch out for hundreds of pages.

 

True, and this thread has had its gems. I'm definitely not sorry I joined in, but I would say that all the interesting and enlightening juice has now been squeezed from the orange and I doubt anybody is under the illusion that this isn't mostly a war of attrition.

[sylvanaerie]

Invoking Word of God only works when you can link to the actual Word of God.  Apart from that:

 

A lot of people have killed people they were reluctant to kill.

Whether Ostagar actually was doomed is only important if Loghain had a copy of the script.  

 

Thanks for the Gaider posts, ThomasBlaine.  Very informative and kind of impressive you found them in the buried threads of the old BSN.   This was how I perceived what happened after the shock of the first couple of games, good to have my impression confirmed.

 

I think losing the battle was in the back of his mind as a contingency, one reason he tried to convince Cailan not to go to the front lines because he knew it was a possibility.  I truly believe he only made the choice to turn away at the last minute.  Whether one can argue it's 'premeditated' because of it or not, it was there, just not truly acted upon till the moment came.

 

As for doomed, has anyone actually seen a dev/writer confirm this?  As far as I knew they kept pretty close lipped and left it up to the players to decide.  For me, it's always been, 'we'll never really know what would have happened' if he followed through with the plan, we can only speculate based on what we know, and how we perceive events in the game.  And I've never been able to commit to either perception with any great confidence as I am no military expert.

[Lezio]

Thanks for the Gaider posts, ThomasBlaine.  Very informative and kind of impressive you found them in the buried threads of the old BSN.   This was how I perceived what happened after the shock of the first couple of games, good to have my impression confirmed.

 

I think losing the battle was in the back of his mind as a contingency, one reason he tried to convince Cailan not to go to the front lines because he knew it was a possibility.  I truly believe he only made the choice to turn away at the last minute.  Whether one can argue it's 'premeditated' because of it or not, it was there, just not truly acted upon till the moment came.

 

As for doomed, has anyone actually seen a dev/writer confirm this?  As far as I knew they kept pretty close lipped and left it up to the players to decide.  For me, it's always been, 'we'll never really know what would have happened' if he followed through with the plan, we can only speculate based on what we know, and how we perceive events in the game.  And I've never been able to commit to either perception with any great confidence as I am no military expert.

 

Personally, if the battle was fought using the advantages Ostagar provided then yeah, easily i might add. As it was? Myabe i give Loghain more credit than he is due, but i think he could have managed to pull off a win even fighting on even ground if he really committed to it. By the time The Warden and Alistair leat the beacon, though, from what we can see from Duncan's prespective, i think the battle was already lost

[Mike3207]

Personally, if the battle was fought using the advantages Ostagar provided then yeah, easily i might add. As it was? Myabe i give Loghain more credit than he is due, but i think he could have managed to pull off a win even fighting on even ground if he really committed to it. By the time The Warden and Alistair leat the baacon, though, form what we can see from Duncan's prespective, i think the battle was already lost

It all depends on the number of darkspawn on the field, I;d say given the numbers of the human forces-10,000 or so given by Duncan-it would have been a tough decison even with equal number of forces. I'd say with Loghain to make that decision-there would have been a minimum of 30,000 at least. Any projections on the number of darkspawn are conjecture, of course.

[HeliosDisciple]

There'd be some serious political repercussions if the darkspawn-killing order goes "wow, look at all those darkspawn...ok, all you guys go fight them, we'll be waiting at camp for the archdemon to show".

[Macha'Anu]

This is in conflict with Loghain advice for Cailan when he asked him to remain with him and also with the fact that Loghain's plan
never involved a charge to the darkspawns,it was Cailan here who charged in open field and abandoned the walls bottle-neck of Ostagar and forced Loghain to leave in order to not be sandwiched by the darkspawns who were coming from behind the korkari wilds.
The betrayal came later when he out of paranoia accused the GW to be part of some Orlesian plot.
I think the tower of Ishal was a case of bad writing because it was never explained why nobody noticed those chambers.

I think maybe they expected people to RP their own reason or maybe they didn't who knows. as you can see here so many already have their own theories as to why. Thusly Bioware did their job. if thats the reason. Sometimes not everything is going to be written out for us. Its just meant to be fan canon or rp'd. I personally dont think loghain expected it to be over run. I dont think they found the under caverns. I dont think they even thought to look. I think his men were expecting to just abandon the tower but the ambush of darkspawn changed the plans. Loghain was always going to betray Cailan. Regardless of his childish whims, you find out later Cailan knew they would loose the battle and he knew he would probably die. I think someone warned him he might be betrayed thus the treason for the secret key to open the secret chest. Cailain may have acted a fool but he wasnt in fact such.

But thats just my rp. My own head canon. I always lop off Loghains head. Always.

[German Soldier]

What Cailan did is outrageously stupid since he knew that they had small chances of victory yet he decided to battle in the front line when he was a king.

[Illegitimus]

 

What Cailan did is outrageously stupid since he knew that they had small chances of victory yet he decided to battle in the front line when he was a king.

 

 

 

And you know that…how?

[ThomasBlaine]

 

What Cailan did is outrageously stupid since he knew that they had small chances of victory yet he decided to battle in the front line when he was a king.

 

 

To be fair, they'd already won three battles against the darkspawn and had no idea the approaching horde would be so massive. You can kind of see it on his face in the cutscene, the moment he looks at the horde, sees his men lose their morale and realizes just how badly he and Loghain underestimated the enemy force. The heirless king fighting on the frontline is outrageously stupid in any case, but it wasn't a decision he made knowing the actual scales of the battle.

[Asha'bellanar]

Actually, Gaider confirmed he didn't want to kill Cailan and that Ostagar was doomed even if Loghain marched

Which confirms my suspicion that Loghain was not the "brilliant" strategist and/or general everyone thought he was.

[ThomasBlaine]

Which confirms my suspicion that Loghain was not the "brilliant" strategist and/or general everyone thought he was.

 

Nope. It does confirm that he isn't a perfect strategist or general, or at the very least that not everything he does automatically succeeds.

 

Imagine that.

[German Soldier]

And you know that…how?

 

To be fair, they'd already won three battles against the darkspawn and had no idea the approaching horde would be so massive. You can kind of see it on his face in the cutscene, the moment he looks at the horde, sees his men lose their morale and realizes just how badly he and Loghain underestimated the enemy force. The heirless king fighting on the frontline is outrageously stupid in any case, but it wasn't a decision he made knowing the actual scales of the battle.

 I know that because it was stated in DAO that Cailan was aware that this battle could have been lost  for what i remember those were info from the Dlc return to Ostagar ,he wasn't unconsciously stupid he was consciously stupid.

[Asha'bellanar]

Nope. It does confirm that he isn't a perfect strategist or general, or at the very least that not everything he does automatically succeeds.

 

Imagine that.

What it says to me is that he was either careless or malicious. If it's not the latter (and conversations with him if you recruit him do seem to indicate that he did not necessarily intend Cailan's death), then it's the former. Yeah, let's just not pay any attention to the great, gaping hole in the floor that leads to tunnels that come close to the valley where the battle will be. That can't possibly matter, can it?