671 réponses à ce sujet

[DreamerM]

I doubt a patronizing and condescending tone helps continue a dialogue. Nor responding as if any person asking questions is imposing their viewpoint over someone else.

I apologize. I'm sorry. I'll try to keep it in check.

For what it's worth, I think the problem of condescension is my problem with this whole debate. It can sound like a lot of cis people trying and failing to get their minds around the mere concept of believing you were born in the wrong body. Finally deciding that the whole this is just too weird and they don't want to think about it anymore. Which is fine, except the trans people are still there, and they have to exist in this world one way or another. They don't need us making things harder.

[Gothfather]

To be honest given who Miranda's father was and how he tried to create the perfect heir, I think they should retcon that Miranda was born Mark Lawson. And it was never an issue so never brought up in game.

 

 

I honestly think there are far better ways to talk about gender identity in ME that would create parallels to Trans issues without trying to ham fistedly force it onto the ME universe. To me it would make sense if society was uncomfortable with post birth hermaphrodites, people who choose to be both genders at once but it make them sterile. This draws a direct parallel to the Trangender issues we face but can have tangible connection to ME:A. It could be that society frowns upon this practice because of the need to increase the population. This seems like a far better way and very much in the tradition of SCI-FI taking fictional issues to spotlight real world issues.

[Gothfather]

They can label whatever they want, there is no reason not to go through with the procedure in a science fiction universe where such a transition is possible and carry no risk. There is no reason not to, so I'm not sure why I suppose to care for people who don't want to go through with it but then complain about their situation, and if they're happy with it then there is no need to talk about it. 

 

This^^^^^!!! it would be like a gay individual in ME universe saying "I am gay but i refuse to have sex with my own gender but will have sex with the opposite gender and I hate that people refuse to accept me as gay. Why am I so persecuted? "

[straykat]

To be honest given who Miranda's father was and how he tried to create the perfect heir, I think they should retcon that Miranda was born Mark Lawson. And it was never an issue so never brought up in game.

 

 

I honestly think there are far better ways to talk about gender identity in ME that would create parallels to Trans issues without trying to ham fistedly force it onto the ME universe. To me it would make sense if society was uncomfortable with post birth hermaphrodites, people who choose to be both genders at once but it make them sterile. This draws a direct parallel to the Trangender issues we face but can have tangible connection to ME:A. It could be that society frowns upon this practice because of the need to increase the population. This seems like a far better way and very much in the tradition of SCI-FI taking fictional issues to spotlight real world issues.

 

Well if she was created to be perfect, then changing later is kind of strange.

 

They might as well not make her a romance if that was the case though. You'd save a lot of trouble.

[Grieving Natashina]

Reposting this, since I accidentally hid my post:

@Dreamer. I understand how you feel. However, including anyone in the minority or majority just to rile people up is a horrible idea.

Here, have a bassett hug. I think you need one.

[DreamerM]

[Gothfather]

Well if she was created to be perfect, then changing later is kind of strange.

 

They might as well not make her a romance if that was the case though. You'd save a lot of trouble.

 

She was created to be perfect in her father's eyes and she spent her life rebelling against that and protecting her sister from her father. What is created as perfect in her father's eyes might not be perfect in Miranda's eyes. So i don't see how you arrive at the above.

 

How do you RETCON her as a non romance option? She is a romance option period, retconing can't change that.

[straykat]

She was created to be perfect in her father's eyes and she spent her life rebelling against that and protecting her sister from her father. What is created as perfect in her father's eyes might not be perfect in Miranda's eyes. So i don't see how you arrive at the above.

 

How do you RETCON her as a non romance option? She is a romance option period, retconing can't change that.

 

Oh, I see you what mean.. so it's an act of defiance.

 

As for romance, I think you just want this for shits and giggles. But I didn't mean Retcon. I thought you meant, more like.. re-conceived/rewritten. Hiding things (yet somehow having it known) would do no good.

[Killroy]

I subscribe to the AlanC9 theory of disliking when people post videos rather than arguments.

 

Since I don't care to waste 15 minutes trying to divine what parts of a video are intended to address, compliment, or contradict points of mine, mind making your own argument.

 

Anyone who isn't willing to watch 15 minutes of Louis CK's brilliant writing isn't worth talking to.

 

To be fair they replaced the old ass pose with a new one that is literally copy-pasted from an old pin-up poster.

 

And none of the original whiners complained, because it was a manufactured controversy to start with. A handful of people were looking for something to be offended by and then the perpetually offended masses latched on.

[DreamerM]

Oh, I see you what mean.. so it's an act of defiance.

Or maybe it could be, I don't know... she really always believed she was a woman? Because she is a woman?

Oh man. Can you imagine what would have happened if Miranda had revealed she was trans at the end of Mass Effect 3? If a random NPC mentioning being trans was too much for some gamers to stomach, what if a major love interest had revealed the same thing after two games worth of a relationship? I think the internet would catch on fire...

Sorry, sorry... think of the bassets, think of the bassets....

[Grieving Natashina]

Have one more bassett pic. This is my girl dog:

Spoiler

I'm going to go back to lurking in the thread. It's been an interesting read.

[Khrystyn]

I think all LI relationships should be heterosexual and monogamous. 

[Gothfather]

Oh, I see you what mean.. so it's an act of defiance.

 

As for romance, I think you just want this for shits and giggles. But I didn't mean Retcon. I thought you meant, more like.. re-conceived/rewritten. Hiding things (yet somehow having it known) would do no good.

 

In reference to defiance, not necessarily. Miranda was created in the image of what Henry Lawson views perfection as, but so much of what we view as perfection is subjective it stands to reason that Miranda's idea of perfection is different. She states that even her appearance was created to be 'perfect.' Obviously people's view of beauty is subjective and so Henry is projecting his idea of perfection onto Miranda. Is it defiance against my father that i prefer vanilla ice cream and he like strawberry? Miranda has had perfection imposed on her, her entire life and because she doesn't like her father there is no reason to believe that she would simply accept anything about herself just because her father views it as perfect. She appears to be a woman that makes up her own mine. So IF she viewed herself as a woman but her father view the perfect heir as male it makes sense that Miranda would transition to a woman and not bring it up because she is a woman. It would have to be a retcon but it would have zero actual effect on the game.

 

As for the shits and giggles, yes that is partly true because some of the objections to LGBT inclusion on the BSN have been stupid. Also it would change nothing about anyone's own identity be it gender or sexuality if they retconned Miranda. Third it would be a very realistic representation of gender identity in mass effect aka a non issue. And I added in the post that there are other 'better' ways to talk about gender identity in the game than a token trans for me:A.

[DreamerM]

Have one more bassett pic. This is my girl dog:

Spoiler

I'm going to go back to lurking in the thread. It's been an interesting read.

...That girl looks wise af. She looks like she should spend her days on the top of the highest peaks of India, accepting offerings and dispensing wisdom. 

I should lurk as well before I break any more furniture.

[Draining Dragon]

I'm impressed that BSN has been able to discuss transgender characters for 13 pages without the thread descending into a mudslinging fest.

Ladies and gentlemen, Hell has officially frozen over.

Spoiler

[straykat]

If it's a retcon idea, then I think it's just screwing with her fans (mostly straight guys). The motivations are transparent: Like I said, shits and giggles. Spitefulness. It serves no other purpose other than to rile up those straight guys.

 

Believe it or not, most people are picky about people they date... even without this gender issue. They would not like being fooled on this level.

 

Gamewise, it's far less harmless, of course. But I mean the general idea is not cool. You're not pushing the boundaries of acceptance this way. Like they're suddenly going to have some revelatory experience that they do, in fact, want to date transgendered.

[Gothfather]

I think all LI relationships should be heterosexual and monogamous. 

 

As a straight male this bothers me. I like some of the romances in Bioware games but i have ZERO interest in Romancing a man but if i subjectively prefer the female voice actress to the male I will make a female character. In short my character's gender is dictated by my subjective view of which voice actor is better. It would ****** me off if there where no gay female characters for me to romance all because some posters QQ about sexuality and monogamy.

[straykat]

As a straight male this bothers me. I like some of the romances in Bioware games but i have ZERO interest in Romancing a man but if i subjectively prefer the female voice actress to the male I will make a female character. In short my character's gender is dictated by my subjective view of which voice actor is better. It would ****** me off if there where no gay female characters for me to romance all because some posters QQ about sexuality and monogamy.

 

Ahem... I might say this about Thane. Heh.

 

If Nathaniel Howe had been romanceable, maybe that too.

[frylock23]

 

People will go to the extreme to express themselves, i guess.

 

It occurs to me that you may have been thinking that I've seen no evidence of body modification today.

 

I was referring to the ME timeframe. I am well aware of people like the Dragon Lady who exist today. But if we do that much today, and we are hypothesizing that we can actually swap genders in the time of the ME trilogy ... what level of modification should be hypothetically available by then, and why haven't we seen any hints of it? You would have thought maybe in a place like Chora's Den or Afterlife at the very least.

[straykat]

Geez. It hurts just looking at the guy on the frame for that vid. Forehead modification? Ugh..

[Gothfather]

If it's a retcon idea, then I think it's just screwing with her fans (mostly straight guys). The motivations are transparent: Like I said, shits and giggles. Spitefulness. It serves no other purpose other than to rile up those straight guys.

 

Believe it or not, most people are picky about people they date... even without this gender issue. They would not like being fooled on this level.

 

Gamewise, it's far less harmless, of course. But I mean the general idea is not cool. You're not pushing the boundaries of acceptance this way. Like they're suddenly going to have some revelatory experience that they do, in fact, want to date transgendered.

Your entire gamewise comments are social in nature and deal with issues outside the game so not really applicable to the "gamewise." The retconning Miranda does nothing to content, it still plays the same the narrative is still the same, because all the content is exactly the same.

 

Actually making people angry isn't pointless. if you get angry because of a retcon of this nature you really need some self reflection. You played the game with the character as female and always was female them reconning it to a transitioned female doesn't magically make your past romance of Miranda a trans relationship and the reason it doesn't is because in your head Miranda was born female.

 

In fact change doesn't happen unless you make society angry because people only get angry when their assumptions are challenged. And you have to challenge people's assumptions to have change. This is true about politics, social issues, economic issue even things like games. Just the natural evolution of computer technology cause gamers to get angry about improved graphics. Why? Because better graphics challenged the assumptions of people that computer games should look like X. Because it will make people angry over an issue is probably the single worst objection to doing something you can make.

[straykat]

Your entire gamewise comments are social in nature and deal with issues outside the game so not really applicable to the "gamewise." The retconning Miranda does nothing to content, it still plays the same the narrative is still the same, because all the content is exactly the same.

 

Actually making people angry isn't pointless if you get angry because of a retcon of this nature you really need some self reflection. You played the game with the character as female and always was female them reconning it to a transitioned female doesn't magically make your past romance of Miranda a trans relationship and the reason it doesn't is because in your head Miranda was born female. In fact change doesn't happen unless you make society angry because people only get angry when their assumptions are challenged. And you have to challenge people's assumptions to have change. This is true about politics, social issues, economic issue even things like games. Just the natural evolution of computer technology cause gamers to get angry about improved graphics. Why? Because better graphics challenged the assumptions of people that computer games should look like X. Because it will make people angry over an issue is probably the single worst objection to doing something you can make.

 

Dude, if she's not a woman, then you're just going to upset most guys who were fans. What's so hard to understand? There's nothing wrong with them for thinking that. It might not be real, but the deception is. Straight guys like women. If it turns out to be a trick, then they'd lash out. And at the very least, they don't like writers, who are being smartasses at their expense.

 

 

On a sidenote, I don't care personally. I don't like Miranda much in the first place.

[DreamerM]

Dude, if she's not a woman, then you're just going to upset most guys who were fans.

She IS a woman, though. She has always been a woman. She merely had surgery to affirm it.

 

Think of it like a nose job. If your girlfriend who you love dearly confessed after many years of loving intimacy that yes, she DID once have a different nose, would you freak out? Or would you say, "I love you regardless of what nose you have?"

If you would reject a beautiful brilliant woman who loves you for no reason other then what surgery she has chosen to have.... that says far more about you then it does about her.

...SORRY! Sorry, going back to lurking, sorry...

[Dalinne]

I think all LI relationships should be heterosexual and monogamous. 

 

That's soooo booooring that I can't even...

Just... why? 

What will be the next thing? All LI must be humans?

 

[straykat]

She IS a woman, though. She has always been a woman. She merely had surgery to affirm it.

 

Think of it like a nose job. If your girlfriend who you love dearly confessed after many years of loving intimacy that yes, she DID once have a different nose, would you freak out? Or would you say, "I love you regardless of what nose you have?"

If you would reject a beautiful brilliant woman who loves you for no reason other then what surgery she has chosen to have.... that says far more about you then it does about her.

...SORRY! Sorry, going back to lurking, sorry...

 

Sure, it would say a lot about me... or most straight guys. We generally don't want to have sex with men. Surgery is no way around it for US.

 

It takes another transgender or extremely remarkable person (more remarkable than I at least) to see it any other way. Good luck on finding the remarkable. Might be easier to find another transgender person actually.