671 réponses à ce sujet

[Gothfather]

Dude, if she's not a woman, then you're just going to upset most guys who were fans. What's so hard to understand? There's nothing wrong with them for thinking that. It might not be real, but the deception is. Straight guys like women. If it turns out to be a trick, then they'd lash out. And at the very least, they don't like writers, who are being smartasses at their expense.

 

 

On a sidenote, I don't care personally. I don't like Miranda much in the first place.

What do you mean not a woman? If someone is functionally a woman as in can get pregnant and genetically a woman as in their genetic code is actually XX they are a woman period even if they are born a man. In the ME universe gene therapy and the ability to create organs with the exact DNA match as yourself means you are not doing cosmetic changes. What are those dna matched organs not real? Why would genitals not be real if they were created with your new genetic code? Which is the whole point of why Trans doesn't make much sense in ME games. There is no in between stage, you transition in to a fully functional gender, you don't transition to just a cosmetic change.

 

Yes people will get angry so what?

 

In fact change doesn't happen unless you make people with in society angry because people only get angry when their assumptions are challenged. And you have to challenge people's assumptions to have change. This is true about politics, social issues, economic issue even things like games. Just the natural evolution of computer technology cause gamers to get angry about improved graphics. Why? Because better graphics challenged the assumptions of people that computer games should look like X. Because it will make people angry over an issue is probably the single worst objection to doing something you can make.

[straykat]

What do you mean not a woman? If someone is functionally a woman as in can get pregnant and genetically a woman as in their genetic code is actually XX they are a woman period even if they are born a man. In the ME universe gene therapy can create organs with the exact DNA match as yourself. What are those not real? Why would genitals not be real if they were created with you new genetic code? Which is the whole point of why Trans doesn't make much sense in ME games. There is no in between stage, you transition in to a fully functional gender, you don't transition to just a cosmetic change.

 

You're trying to get me to accept a transgendered Miranda romance, by using ME science.

 

I think I have to sit this one out. Even if I said "Yes" to it... what exactly will that prove?

[BansheeOwnage]

Ok, let's get started.

 

What I'm trying to say is, that I can see both sides of the argument in regards to how LGBT people are treated in the future of ME or just ME in general. I don't think we can take how Cortez was treated as an overall, universal treatment to all LGBT people.

It's not just Cortez. It's also Traynor, Kaidan, potentially Shepard, and every other LGBT character who isn't treated any differently for being LGBT. Why change that just for trans people, just so they can make a big deal out of it, just to add angst to a character, when they don't need to?

 

It's not that such advanced meditech is impossible, just that everyone might want to under such procedures, even if they were available.

 

I'm on the autistic spectrum, but if you told me that ME had a means to prevent or "correct" autism via gene therapy, I'd balk at the idea of having it done. It'd be no different than Dorian's father wanting to futz with his mind to "correct" his homosexuality, because we're treating something as a defect when it's not. Furthermore such a procedure would fundamentally change the person I am and the person who'd leave that hospital room would not be me anymore... not really. Nor would David Archer be the same if he had it done to him.

I know analogies are often flawed, and I suck at using them so I don't blame you, but I don't think this is comparable to autism. There is nothing wrong with being autistic. There is nothing wrong with being gay. But there is something wrong with being transgender (more specifically transsexual) to the person who is trans. It's a requirement for being trans (gender dysphoria) So there is something to fix.

 

Uhh not really... it's about what they are, not what they want to be. Not all transgender people want reassignment surgery. Yes they are still transgender.

That's quite true, but from what I've gathered most people who opt not to have reassignment surgeries do so because of various reasons that all come back to the procedure being imperfect. If it was perfected in ME, I'd say a very, very small portion of transsexual transgender people would not do it. The other people who don't are simply not as concerned by these specific parts of their bodies and content with simply passing and/or being recognized as their gender. So there could still be those people in ME, but if reassignment has no down-sides, why not do it?

 

So it's basically a small section of the LGBT and then a smaller section within the trans community about people who specifically want to stay as the same body but just feel like the other gender? It's like a niche within a a niche within a niche and specifically those who play video games and specifically the people who play role playing video games. How many people would it be for to dedicate contents for them? 

 

If such a character exists, they would simply serve as a PSA instead of being a character, especially if we go with a world where trans and gay people are accepted in ME universe and have the technology to become their chosen gender. 

Just to be clear, it's not that trans people who don't have surgeries are completely okay with their entire bodies. They will most likely still present as their felt-gender like trans people who do have surgeries, and will otherwise be the same. There are a number of reasons why they might opt-out of surgeries, although to be honest I'm not sure why they would if we had ME medi-tech. That would confuse me as well.

 

Correct me if I am wrong but what you are saying is normalization makes commenting on the issue directly odd. It would be like someone in 1850 era rpg  just out of the blue saying, "I am X gender and have always been x gender."  (They wouldn't use cis because the term wasn't invented.) This would seem stupid and out of place because being cis gender is "normal" so why would you draw attention to it? If LGBT is pretty much normalized in ME human society why would human Transpeople just out of the blue go "I am X gender but I wasn't always X gender?" It would feel out of place and this uncomfortable feeling would have nothing to do with transphobia.

More or less, yes. I am saying that based on how they handled Dorian and Krem, I feel like Bioware will make more out of a trans character than they need to or should do. Part of that probably being that they will draw attention to it when they shouldn't, ingame.

 

Really, a lot of this just comes down to me not having faith in Bioware to do it right. Combined with the ME setting making it much easier for trans people to be themselves, I'm not sure they should do it. Because I care, and I don't want them to screw up.

 

I'd be totally okay with having a trans character in ME if they were exactly the same as any other character just with a different past that might get a small offhand mention, nothing more. I don't want it to be a huge source of angst or define the character, because I think that would be counterproductive.

[Battlebloodmage]

Ok, let's get started.

It's not just Cortez. It's also Traynor, Kaidan, potentially Shepard, and every other LGBT character who isn't treated any differently for being LGBT. Why change that just for trans people, just so they can make a big deal out of it, just to add angst to a character, when they don't need to?

 

I know analogies are often flawed, and I suck at using them so I don't blame you, but I don't think this is comparable to autism. There is nothing wrong with being autistic. There is nothing wrong with being gay. But there is something wrong with being transgender (more specifically transsexual) to the person who is trans. It's a requirement for being trans (gender dysphoria) So there is something to fix.

 

That's quite true, but from what I've gathered most people who opt not to have reassignment surgeries do so because of various reasons that all come back to the procedure being imperfect. If it was perfected in ME, I'd say a very, very small portion of transsexual transgender people would not do it. The other people who don't are simply not as concerned by these specific parts of their bodies and content with simply passing and/or being recognized as their gender. So there could still be those people in ME, but if reassignment has no down-sides, why not do it?

 

Just to be clear, it's not that trans people who don't have surgeries are completely okay with their entire bodies. They will most likely still present as their felt-gender like trans people who do have surgeries, and will otherwise be the same. There are a number of reasons why they might opt-out of surgeries, although to be honest I'm not sure why they would if we had ME medi-tech. That would confuse me as well.

 

More or less, yes. I am saying that based on how they handled Dorian and Krem, I feel like Bioware will make more out of a trans character than they need to or should do. Part of that probably being that they will draw attention to it when they shouldn't, ingame.

 

Really, a lot of this just comes down to me not having faith in Bioware to do it right. Combined with the ME setting making it much easier for trans people to be themselves, I'm not sure they should do it. Because I care, and I don't want them to screw up.

 

I'd be totally okay with having a trans character in ME if they were exactly the same as any other character just with a different past that might get a small offhand mention, nothing more. I don't want it to be a huge source of angst or define the character, because I think that would be counterproductive.

That is my problem, if you could turn into an actual with space science magic, I don't see why you would. In real life, i can see a bunch of reasons why they don't do it, it's too expensive, the transition takes a long time, complication, hormone treatment, family disapproval, but if we assume ME treats LGBT as everyone else. There is no problem, and there shouldn't be any reason why they don't do it. I'm perfectly fine with transgender people that can't change their gender in the real world but in a fictional universe, it's just baffling. 

[Battlebloodmage]

You're trying to get me to accept a transgendered Miranda romance, by using ME science.

 

I think I have to sit this one out. Even if I said "Yes" to it... what exactly will that prove?

Even is that not any individual person here, but what the majority of the straight guys who play the game will react, and based on how they react to Baldur's Gate with a minor transgender character. I can already foresee a lot of death threats and 0 reviews toward the writers and the game. If your purpose is to have transgender character in it to show that they're normal, doing it this way will cause a big backlash, negative reviews, negative press toward the game, it would not only take away the message you're trying to get across, it will damage the game reputation as well. Don't underestimate words of mouth. 

[Natureguy85]

Lots of people are repeating the first "why not" comment. There is only one reason I can think of: effort. In order to put in a trans character, they have to devote a character to that one aspect of the character. Do you want a token character? Should they make it obvious or have characters talk about it? Should they let players decide or make the game acknowledge it? The latter option in each requires more writing work than the first options. Would the first options be satisfying?

 

I'm interested in quality writing and quality characters so the thread title is a terrible place to start writing as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

Even if you had a character with every last gene changed, they would still be regarded as transgender by many people. It would be an interesting application within the ME universe, and I'd agree that the ME universe's transgender population may resemble ours in very few ways. 

 

This is a good point. Particularly since it's another galaxy, I hope effort goes into making interesting aliens rather than an outlier among humans.

[frylock23]

She IS a woman, though. She has always been a woman. She merely had surgery to affirm it.

 

Think of it like a nose job. If your girlfriend who you love dearly confessed after many years of loving intimacy that yes, she DID once have a different nose, would you freak out? Or would you say, "I love you regardless of what nose you have?"

If you would reject a beautiful brilliant woman who loves you for no reason other then what surgery she has chosen to have.... that says far more about you then it does about her.

...SORRY! Sorry, going back to lurking, sorry...

 

All it says is that someone is straight.

 

Would you be challenging someone who said they were gay in a similar manner?

[BansheeOwnage]

You're trying to get me to accept a transgendered Miranda romance, by using ME science.

 

I think I have to sit this one out. Even if I said "Yes" to it... what exactly will that prove?

Probably that it wouldn't be an issue in ME. Which was the point.

[BansheeOwnage]

Lots of people are repeating the first "why not" comment. There is only one reason I can think of: effort. In order to put in a trans character, they have to devote a character to that one aspect of the character. Do you want a token character? Should they make it obvious or have characters talk about it? Should they let players decide or make the game acknowledge it? The latter option in each requires more writing work than the first options. Would the first options be satisfying?

 They wouldn't have to devote a character to that one aspect. Not at all. The fact that I think it's likely that Bioware would over-emphasize that one aspect doesn't mean it has to be that way. It could easily (theoretically) just be a small part of a character.

 

If having it be just a small part of a character means they're a "token", so be it. But I think "token" usually means the opposite of that: That the character's only purpose is fulfilling that trait.

[Gothfather]

You're trying to get me to accept a transgendered Miranda romance, by using ME science.

 

I think I have to sit this one out. Even if I said "Yes" to it... what exactly will that prove?

No i am saying they are NOT transgendered. We only have transgendered individuals because of the limits of technology. If you are X gender both functionally and genetically how are you trans? We are only born any gender because of hormones so what is the difference if this happens prenatal or postnatal? I am not speaking about OUR world I am talking about the ME universe.

 

Secondly I am not trying to make you accept anything. I romanced Miranda in my one Meer play through and in my head she is a woman and always would be if they retconed Miranda as born Mark nothing will have changed as i will still view that past romance as Miranda born a woman because it was what was happening at the time. Which is why I pointed out nothing is actually changed content wise in teh game with this retcon.

 

And making a change to the game has zero impact on any players sexuality or gender identity. Will it get them mad? Some sure, So what. Why is that an important consideration when the only way change happens is if people get mad because their assumptions are challenged?

 

"Oh don't rock the boat people will get mad." Good Change only happens when people get mad.

[Fozee]

 

"Oh don't rock the boat people will get mad." Good Change only happens when people get mad.

 

Well that and we tend to burn their houses down until they accept the good change.

[straykat]

 

 

 

 

"Oh don't rock the boat people will get mad." Good Change only happens when people get mad.

 

It's not going to change anything. It's one thing to expect people to be humanitarian and not be shitheads. But expecting more is unrealistic. It's what ruins all of the LGBT conversation with outsiders. The demand for more... to have everyone "understand". They won't. But they can understand humanity. At least, most probably can.

 

If people need understanding, find a friend. It's what anyone else does.

[AlanC9]

Which is the whole point of why Trans doesn't make much sense in ME games. There is no in between stage, you transition in to a fully functional gender, you don't transition to just a cosmetic change.

Well, unless you do go with just a cosmetic change. Even with such technologies, some people would prefer to maintain an ambiguous status. Though I'm not sure they're a great fit for the topic.

[Natureguy85]

 They wouldn't have to devote a character to that one aspect. Not at all. The fact that I think it's likely that Bioware would over-emphasize that one aspect doesn't mean it has to be that way. It could easily (theoretically) just be a small part of a character.

 

If having it be just a small part of a character means they're a "token", so be it. But I think "token" usually means the opposite of that: That the character's only purpose is fulfilling that trait.

 

Very true, but I wouldn't expect that kind of subtlety. Like with "female protagonist," what should be a "character that happens to be trans" will be written as "that trans character."

[BansheeOwnage]

Well, unless you do go with just a cosmetic change. Even with such technologies, some people would prefer to maintain an ambiguous status. Though I'm not sure they're a great fit for the topic.

What do you mean by "ambiguous status"? That someone might be androgynous? Sorry, I just don't know what you mean.

[aoibhealfae]

You guys do realize that not all transgender are by choice, ever heard of XXY females? Klinefelter Syndrome? Miranda herself said she have a modified form of his father's gene with altered Y chromosome and combined with other female donors. ("His Y-chromosome was altered with an amalgam of desired traits from various sources") Whether everyone choose to see her as trans or not is moot point. She identified herself as a woman. She is a woman. 

 

If players felt cheated because they romance someone who have repetitively said that she's a product of her father's genes including a Y chromosome in her genetic makeup, well, maybe they need to brush up on their highschool biology.

[Battlebloodmage]

Very true, but I wouldn't expect that kind of subtlety. Like with "female protagonist," what should be a "character that happens to be trans" will be written as "that trans character."

True, instead of making the story about trans characters, make a character who happens to be trans. If they really need to talk about it, they could go the subtle ways like saying something like "when I was a boy" if it was about a trans female or has some old family photo or something. Still, I would rather for them to go the space magic route than anything. 

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Lots of people are repeating the first "why not" comment. There is only one reason I can think of: effort. In order to put in a trans character, they have to devote a character to that one aspect of the character. Do you want a token character? Should they make it obvious or have characters talk about it? Should they let players decide or make the game acknowledge it? The latter option in each requires more writing work than the first options. Would the first options be satisfying?

 

I'm interested in quality writing and quality characters so the thread title is a terrible place to start writing as far as I'm concerned.

 

Depends on what the writing team wants to do with that character. There are ways to incorporate trans characters without making them always and forever orbiting the point of 'I'm trans'.

 

For example, a doctor on the Ark has a specialty in gene therapies and modifications; not unreasonable, for the Ark's purpose. Maybe the reason she went into it was to better understand what she had done when she transitioned - she wanted to be able to provide the kinds of therapeutic help she herself was given. She mentions it when the PC talks to her about her work and motivations for joining the mission/training to be a doctor/working with gene mods. Not much different than Shepard talking to Chakwas about why she joined the Alliance, or hearing her talk about her work as a doctor. A couple of lines, and maybe a little exploration of the topic of transition, if the writers want to get into the process of transitioning in the ME universe.

 

Or the PC talks to one of their squaddies about their family/home life/growing up. In the response, he tells a story about something that happened to him when he was a little girl. This is something that many trans people can't do at the moment - talk about gender-specific anecdotes or experiences from their past, without getting backlash for being trans. If it's no bigger deal in the ME future than being gay or bisexual, there's no stigma and you can share those kinds of anecdotes. Again, no need to get into the subject of transition (why did you do it, what was involved), unless the writers for some reason decide they want to include it.

[straykat]

Is it not enough that people just don't get killed and get afforded decency and respect? I don't know any other subject that demands so much enlightenment, circumspection, acceptance, and whole mental paradigm shifts. Not race, not religion, not muffin recipes, nothing.

[Battlebloodmage]

It's weird to see people shaming others for not wanting to date transgender individuals. It's their preference. As long as people treat others with respect and see them as the gender they prefer, that should be enough. It shouldn't go as far as shaming people for not wanting to go out with a transgender individual. 

[o Ventus]

The anatomical sex (phenotype) is female at the start of all fetuses. Which is why you can get rare cases where the genotype is male but you are born with phenotype female genitalia which is cause when male hormones are not produced. 

 

Granted the sex organs are not fully developed but anatomically we all start out the same and if we DON'T get an introduction of male hormones we WILL develop anatomical female sex organs, they are not functional but it is clear that the base building block of human life IS to create phenotype female genitalia because even genotype aka chromosomal males will develop them IF their chromosomes fail to activate male hormone production. It is part of our genetic code period.

 

I suspect you KNOW this but the truth of the differences in phenotype and genotype doesn't fit your narrative so you just ignored it.

 

"Phenotype" simply refers to the observable traits an organism has (eye color, skin color, odor, overall body shape, etc). Anatomy only comes into play insomuch as . Fetuses have no defined sex until roughly 22 weeks of gestation. There has not been a single recorded instance of a male fetus being born with female genitalia (that is, ovaries, a womb, a clitoris, and a vagina). Likewise for female fetuses with male genitalia (being testes, a penis, and vas deferens). What you're referring to is not a male being born with female genitalia, it's a male being born with not enough genetic material to construct male genitalia. Depending on how this lack of genetic material manifests itself, it will cause 1 of 2 conditions, monosomy (where you have only 1 chromosome from what should be a pair) or trisomy (where you have 3 individual chromosomes where there should be a pair). Either of these conditions is incredibly debilitating to the development of a human and can make living a normal life almost impossible due to various birth defects and serious medical issues, it's not just being born with the wrong genitals. Down Syndrome is symptomatic of a form of trisomy in chromosome #21, for example. If a human being were to ACTUALLY be genetically male but have female genitalia, they would almost guaranteed to be miscarried and die before they were carried to term, and if by some miracle of nature they survived pregnancy and were born, they would suffer unbelievably terrible medical problems and be infertile (if not outright sterile) due to not having the desired number of chromosomes. So, even assuming what you assert is medically possible, it wouldn't make the individual trans, it would just make them a man or woman with severe, severe birth defects.

 

Claiming that we "WILL develop female organs" is simply false and ignorant to actual biology, for reasons I've already explained. I have to ask if you have actually bothered to study the subject.

 

There is no narrative here. You said that fetuses begin as female, I'm stating that this is a false claim. It is simply incorrect. It is not factually accurate. Me correcting your misinformation is not spreading a narrative. If you said the sky was red and I said, no it's blue, I'm not pushing a narrative, I'm correcting you. The irony in you telling me the differences in genotype and phenotype when you seemingly conflate phenotype with the anatomical makeup of a person is palpable and by no means lost on me.

[o Ventus]

You guys do realize that not all transgender are by choice, ever heard of XXY females? Klinefelter Syndrome? Miranda herself said she have a modified form of his father's gene with altered Y chromosome and combined with other female donors. ("His Y-chromosome was altered with an amalgam of desired traits from various sources") Whether everyone choose to see her as trans or not is moot point. She identified herself as a woman. She is a woman. 

 

If players felt cheated because they romance someone who have repetitively said that she's a product of her father's genes including a Y chromosome in her genetic makeup, well, maybe they need to brush up on their highschool biology.

 

XXY females are not trans, they're females with trisomy, which is a rare confition that leads to several birth defects (most notably Down Syndrome). They're not trans, they're ill and in need of medical care. Klinefelter syndrome is the same thing, but in males. The details of Miranda's birth are questionable at best, and that's only because it's left vague enough that people can headcanon enough real science to kinda/sorta make it work within the confines of real genetics with a touch of suspension of disbelief.

[BansheeOwnage]

You guys do realize that not all transgender are by choice, ever heard of XXY females? Klinefelter Syndrome? Miranda herself said she have a modified form of his father's gene with altered Y chromosome and combined with other female donors. ("His Y-chromosome was altered with an amalgam of desired traits from various sources") Whether everyone choose to see her as trans or not is moot point. She identified herself as a woman. She is a woman. 

 

If players felt cheated because they romance someone who have repetitively said that she's a product of her father's genes including a Y chromosome in her genetic makeup, well, maybe they need to brush up on their highschool biology.

Do you realize that no transgender people are transgender by choice? Just like gay people aren't gay by choice? And don't confuse transgender with intersex. They can sometimes overlap, but are not the same thing.

 

And I don't think anyone was saying Miranda was transgender.

[rapscallioness]

What an odd, troll-y question.

 

I mean, if a character is Trans should they not be in ME:A? Just because they're Trans? Should blacks not be in ME:A? Women? Latinos? Asians? It makes no sense. Even if it is meant to be troll-y and bait, it still makes no sense.

 

Or should everything be a uniform grey like Fereldan stew. Gods save me from uniform grey. No flavor. No color. No spice. Ack.

 

If this is a troll-y bait question, come on now. You can do better than this. Can't you? We do have standards here for our trolls. We expect a good flame thread. Not this wamp wamp acquiescence.

[Steelcan]

what is even going on in here