671 réponses à ce sujet

[MissOuJ]

Are people really trying to imply it's transphobic to not want to date a trans person? Has this thread gone full Tumblr?

 

How would it matter though (if you weren't transphobic I mean)? I mean there are plenty of men I don't and wouldn't date - why would I significantly exclude trans people but not, say, evangelizing vegans, if I weren't actively being transphobic?

 

You either find a guy/gal attractive and decide you want to date them, or you don't and you don't. If you don't wanna date trans people on principle then yes, I actually think that is a bit transphobic the same way it would be racist for me (as a white woman) to say I would never date a black guy. And if you later find out the person you're dating is trans and decide you'd rater not see them anymore for that reason alone, again, yes that's probably a bit transphobic.

 

And honestly, if its that important to you, just live with the label and just don't be a horrible person to trans people in general. I'm alright being labeled "horribly prejudiced" because I don't date smokers.

[GoldenGail3]

I don't really know? 

[Sifr]

So in a fictional world, there can't be universal healthcare for these kinds of things? It's a fictional world, so not sure why you want to imagine a world to be that terrible to transgender people. 

 

Because the excuse that because it's fiction means that you've solved intolerance by not showing them, does not stand up to scrutiny. As I've said before in this thread, Star Trek humans often pat themselves on the back ended bigotry and intolerance, yet no-one in that universe seems to be allowed to venture out of the closet... or the rule is that it must be kept over there, off-camera and away from everyone else. Because "tolerance".

 

You think forcing it will make people listen? Look at the backlash at Baldur's Gate for just mentioning a transgender character. You want them to preach to people, but who are you preaching to. The transphobic crowd that would just gonna get pissed? The transgender people that you introduce a transphobic environment into the game? The SJW who's already understanding it? What's the point? You speak out is one thing, making it a social issue in a game is another matter. That's called an agenda. You want to make transgender as characters instead of characters who happen to be transgender. You intentionally want transgender characters for a PSA not to treat  transgender characters that are happened to be transgender if your purpose is to "teach" people.

 

No, you're missing the point... it's not that transgendered characters need to address their status whatsoever, just that if they did, why should it be a problem? Why should their inclusion in the game be denied or glossed over by forcing them to all to be transitioned, as if society demands that for them to gain acceptance?

 

No-one in-universe and out-of-universe should care if they add a trans character in Mass Effect, why does it matter?

 

The only people who seem to not want trans characters to appear for those reasons, are those who seem to think that it automatically means they'd be preaching the gospel of acceptance, standing on a soapbox giving a PSA and are written by SJW writers who want to promote an agenda. That's simply not the case at all, nor an adequate reason why we should belittle any trans characters who do appear as supposedly serving this "agenda".

 

Rather than making it some wild social crusade that Bioware to force acceptance from their audience, did we ever stop to think maybe the intention from the writers was to instead give us a character, then reveal they just happened to be trans?

 

Mae was introduced in Those Who Speak, but the matter of her being trans wasn't even revealed til the next comic Until We Speak. Even then, it was not done to promote any discussion or even played any role in that story, it something the writers let the audience know, then the story moved on.

 

I'm not saying those who want that kind of treatment, rather than soapboxing are wrong because they're not, that's how it should be handled preferably. It's just that I detest the notion that we should not include something because it might make some uncomfortable or think we're being preached to.

 

Why does it have to always be a "message", rather than simply the writers giving us a character with a story and perspective that is different from one's we may have experienced in our own lives... or ones that some in the audience may have experienced themselves?

 

I'm a straight cis male, yet that does not mean Krem and Dorian's stories cannot resonate with me because I lack the experience of being trans or gay. If anything, it was far the more meaningful because of that, because both characters offered a perspective that perhaps I had not considered before.

 

For example, I've always seen conversation therapy as detestable, but hearing the sheer pain in Dorian's voice about how he nearly underwent something similar, made me realise how truly horrible it must be for those who are forced to experience that. Until then, it was something I knew existed but had never really thought about as anything more than an abstract. Thus I didn't see his story as "preaching" to me, it was enlightening me.

[Natureguy85]

How would it matter though (if you weren't transphobic I mean)? I mean there are plenty of men I don't and wouldn't date - why would I significantly exclude trans people but not, say, evangelizing vegans, if I weren't actively being transphobic?

 

You either find a guy/gal attractive and decide you want to date them, or you don't and you don't. If you don't wanna date trans people on principle then yes, I actually think that is a bit transphobic the same way it would be racist for me (as a white woman) to say I would never date a black guy. And if you later find out the person you're dating is trans and decide you'd rater not see them anymore for that reason alone, again, yes that's probably a bit transphobic.

 

And honestly, if its that important to you, just live with the label and just don't be a horrible person to trans people in general. I'm alright being labeled "horribly prejudiced" because I don't date smokers.

 

That's ridiculous. I'm straight and I am interested in women, not men who transition into women. To call that transphobic, you must also say I'm sexist for wanting to date women rather than men. Someone changing their gender and being treated legally as the new one is one thing, but it's going to be entirely up to each individual on if they are sexually attracted to someone or not. We're talking about physical features here. "Evangelizing Vegan" is a behavior and belief system. It's like not dating a black guy because you don't find certain physical features common to black people attractive, not because you have some problem with black people generally.

 

Also, I must point out that if you "later find out the person you're dating is trans," then there are serious issues with trust and honesty there.

[Battlebloodmage]

Because the excuse that because it's fiction means that you've solved intolerance by not showing them, does not stand up to scrutiny. As I've said before in this thread, Star Trek humans often pat themselves on the back ended bigotry and intolerance, yet no-one in that universe seems to be allowed to venture out of the closet... or the rule is that it must be kept over there, off-camera and away from everyone else. Because "tolerance".

 

 

No, you're missing the point... it's not that transgendered characters need to address their status whatsoever, just that if they did, why should it be a problem? Why should their inclusion in the game be denied or glossed over by forcing them to all to be transitioned, as if society demands that for them to gain acceptance?

 

No-one in-universe and out-of-universe should care if they add a trans character in Mass Effect, why does it matter?

 

The only people who seem to not want trans characters to appear for those reasons, are those who seem to think that it automatically means they'd be preaching the gospel of acceptance, standing on a soapbox giving a PSA and are written by SJW writers who want to promote an agenda. That's simply not the case at all, nor an adequate reason why we should belittle any trans characters who do appear as supposedly serving this "agenda".

 

Rather than making it some wild social crusade that Bioware to force acceptance from their audience, did we ever stop to think maybe the intention from the writers was to instead give us a character, then reveal they just happened to be trans?

 

Mae was introduced in Those Who Speak, but the matter of her being trans wasn't even revealed til the next comic Until We Speak. Even then, it was not done to promote any discussion or even played any role in that story, it something the writers let the audience know, then the story moved on.

 

I'm not saying those who want that kind of treatment, rather than soapboxing are wrong because they're not, that's how it should be handled preferably. It's just that I detest the notion that we should not include something because it might make some uncomfortable or think we're being preached to.

 

Why does it have to always be a "message", rather than simply the writers giving us a character with a story and perspective that is different from one's we may have experienced in our own lives... or ones that some in the audience may have experienced themselves?

 

I'm a straight cis male, yet that does not mean Krem and Dorian's stories cannot resonate with me because I lack the experience of being trans or gay. If anything, it was far the more meaningful because of that, because both characters offered a perspective that perhaps I had not considered before.

 

For example, I've always seen conversation therapy as detestable, but hearing the sheer pain in Dorian's voice about how he nearly underwent something similar, made me realise how truly horrible it must be for those who are forced to experience that. Until then, it was something I knew existed but had never really thought about as anything more than an abstract. Thus I didn't see his story as "preaching" to me, it was enlightening me.

If a character happened to be trans, they wouldn't need trans specific storyline. I'm against Dorian for that reason, you write a gay storyline to fit into story instead of just gay character. Dorian storyline is cliche, and there are many storyline about it on TV and movies already, and it always the same thing. It makes it seem like Dorian doesn't have any storyline at all because his storyline is basically just a PSA. If they have a trans character, as long as they don't make a big deal about it like with Krem and Dorian and have a dialogue for Krem forcing a PSA speech from Iron Bull then I'm good. If gay and straight sexuality don't get treated as special, there is no reason for transgender somehow need special treatment instead of equal treatment. 

[Hazegurl]

How would it matter though (if you weren't transphobic I mean)? I mean there are plenty of men I don't and wouldn't date - why would I significantly exclude trans people but not, say, evangelizing vegans, if I weren't actively being transphobic?

 

So a person either has to be willing to bang everyone or be willing to include trans folks if their willing to bang.. let's say, people with blond hair...or they hate trans people. 

 

This thread is really starting to make me wonder how many SJWs force themselves to have sex with people they don't like out of fear of "discriminating" against them. 

[Natureguy85]

If a character happened to be trans, they wouldn't need trans specific storyline. I'm against Dorian for that reason, you write a gay storyline to fit into story instead of just gay character. Dorian storyline is cliche, and there are many storyline about it on TV and movies already, and it always the same thing. It makes it seem like Dorian doesn't have any storyline at all because his storyline is basically just a PSA. If they have a trans character, as long as they don't make a big deal about it like with Krem and Dorian and have a dialogue for Krem forcing a PSA speech from Iron Bull then I'm good. If gay and straight sexuality don't get treated as special, there is no reason for transgender somehow need special treatment instead of equal treatment. 

 

I didn't play DAI so I can't say if you're right or wrong about those characters, but you describe my exact concern and my problem with people pushing for their pet thing to be included.

[Panda]

So a person either has to be willing to bang everyone or be willing to include trans folks if their willing to bang.. let's say, people with blond hair...or they hate trans people. 

 

This thread is really starting to make me wonder how many SJWs force themselves to have sex with people they don't like out of fear of "discriminating" against them. 

 

Eh I think it's more like wondering how people can be so sure they will never be attracted to anyone who is trans? That's quite big and vast group of people in the end and isn't it better to keep options open than totally close that door.

[MACH SSR]

The Asari are already there , a total race suffering from non-gender issues.

No use in complicating humanity than already what it is

[Battlebloodmage]

Eh I think it's more like wondering how people can be so sure they will never be attracted to anyone who is trans? That's quite big and vast group of people in the end and isn't it better to keep options open than totally close that door.

People are old enough to know what they're like and what they don't like. I wouldn't presume why people have a certain likes or dislikes. Sexuality is complicated. The question is not about wondering, but outright calling people transphobic for not into a certain things like if someone who can't be with asexual person, are they asexualphobic? For a straight person, it could be something as simple as wanting to have biological kids of your own with your spouses. Whatever it is, it's their life. It's like telling a straight guy keep their options open in chance they make fall in love with a guy. Everyone has their likes and dislikes, what they find turn on and turn off, not just about sexuality, but also in term of BDSM, feet, or some others. What people may find attractive may go beyond just sexuality, as I know guys who are exclusively into transwomen. 

[SnakeCode]

How would it matter though (if you weren't transphobic I mean)? I mean there are plenty of men I don't and wouldn't date - why would I significantly exclude trans people but not, say, evangelizing vegans, if I weren't actively being transphobic?

 

You either find a guy/gal attractive and decide you want to date them, or you don't and you don't. If you don't wanna date trans people on principle then yes, I actually think that is a bit transphobic the same way it would be racist for me (as a white woman) to say I would never date a black guy. And if you later find out the person you're dating is trans and decide you'd rater not see them anymore for that reason alone, again, yes that's probably a bit transphobic.

 

And honestly, if its that important to you, just live with the label and just don't be a horrible person to trans people in general. I'm alright being labeled "horribly prejudiced" because I don't date smokers.

 

That's ridiculous, as a straight guy, me not wanting to date a trans person is no more transphobic than my not wanting to date another man is homophobic. i.e not at all. I didn't choose to be attracted to women, and I don't choose to not be attracted to men or people born in a male body. Are tolerance and acceptance no longer good enough? Do you have to be willing to jump into bed with someone to prove you don't hate them for who/what they are?

[Onewomanarmy]

How would it matter though (if you weren't transphobic I mean)? I mean there are plenty of men I don't and wouldn't date - why would I significantly exclude trans people but not, say, evangelizing vegans, if I weren't actively being transphobic?

 

You either find a guy/gal attractive and decide you want to date them, or you don't and you don't. If you don't wanna date trans people on principle then yes, I actually think that is a bit transphobic the same way it would be racist for me (as a white woman) to say I would never date a black guy. And if you later find out the person you're dating is trans and decide you'd rater not see them anymore for that reason alone, again, yes that's probably a bit transphobic.

 

And honestly, if its that important to you, just live with the label and just don't be a horrible person to trans people in general. I'm alright being labeled "horribly prejudiced" because I don't date smokers.

 

I'm a straight woman and it makes perfect sense for me NOT to be attracted to trans people. Calling people like me a transphobic is the same as calling gay people who won't date straight people straight phobic. 

 

Your whole post is silly imo.

[MissOuJ]

That's ridiculous. I'm straight and I am interested in women, not men who transition into women. To call that transphobic, you must also say I'm sexist for wanting to date women rather than men. Someone changing their gender and being treated legally as the new one is one thing, but it's going to be entirely up to each individual on if they are sexually attracted to someone or not. We're talking about physical features here. "Evangelizing Vegan" is a behavior and belief system. It's like not dating a black guy because you don't find certain physical features common to black people attractive, not because you have some problem with black people generally.

 

Also, I must point out that if you "later find out the person you're dating is trans," then there are serious issues with trust and honesty there.

 

... Have you actually met trans people in your life? They are a quite varied group of people, and can look very gender conforming (for a lack of better term). For all you know, some of your past dates might've been transgender. Also, trans women are women - women you might or might not find attractive and women with a variety of physical features cis women might not have, but women nonetheless. Just like black people are not a monolithic bunch of people who all have the exactly same facial features.

 

Finding Geena Rocero or Andreja Pejic hot wouldn't make you gay any more than finding Aydian Dowling hot makes me a lesbian. Actually, by your logic, finding Andreja or Geena hot would make your more gay than finding Aydian hot, which... does not mesh with my logic at all.

 

Sexual attraction and libido are completely separate issues from this. If you're not fond of your SO's modus operandi in the bedroom or you don't like their genitalia, you both are better off with someone else - and again, that's fine. (( But I'd like to point out that if I decided to dump a guy after X+ years of marriage and/or dating because he has ED after prostate-cancer treatment with the reason "we're now sexually incompatible", I'd be labeled as the most horrific, self-centered, shallow woman ever to be born on the planet.)) But you're once again assuming that trans women are all, without exception, significantly different from cis women in this regard, which, again, not always the case.

 

I'm a straight woman (who would totally hit on Aydian Dowling, because damn!). If I meet a guy who turns out to be trans, we figure out what it means to our relationship and if that's something we both can deal with. If, for example, I wanted to have biological kids and we would not be able to afford IVF, we'd have an issue which we'd have to tackle together. If I decided this is a deal-breaker for me and we decided it'd be better we split, there's nothing transfobic about it. The same if our libidos didn't match. But if my first reaction would be "Ew, no, I'm straight!" then yes, I'd be acting transfobic.

 

Also, not all trans people feel comfortable do disclose their status during first - or second or third - date. You can take a look at the sort of crimes trans people are a frequent victim of to hazard why this is the case. It's not a trust issue - it's a safety issue.

[Natureguy85]

 

Also, not all trans people feel comfortable do disclose their status during first - or second or third - date. You can take a look at the sort of crimes trans people are a frequent victim of to hazard why this is the case. It's not a trust issue - it's a safety issue.

 

If I meet a guy who turns out to be trans, we figure out what it means to our relationship and if that's something we both can deal with. If, for example, I wanted to have biological kids and we would not be able to afford IVF, we'd have an issue which we'd have to tackle together. If I decided this is a deal-breaker for me and we decided it'd be better we split, there's nothing transfobic about it. The same if our libidos didn't match. But if my first reaction would be "Ew, no, I'm straight!" then yes, I'd be acting transfobic.

 

Fair enough, people have different levels of work done. Looking at Andreja Pejic, I wouldn't have guessed.

 

It would be a trust issue to me. If I'm entering into a romantic relationship with someone, I'd want to know something like that. But this second paragraph is exactly my point. You decide what it means to you. Someone else might feel different. Somebody else might have already figured that out.

[Prince Enigmatic]

I think labelling people who wouldn't be interested in pursuing either a romantic or sexual relationship with a transgendered person, or as you've stated, no longer wanting to continue a relationship if you were to discover the person you were in a relationship with is trans, as transphobic is a bit of a stretch and harsh. Each person subjectively has their own interests in a sexual or romantic partner. They aren't being transphobic by not wanting to date a trans person, much like I'm not straightphobic by not wanting to go out with a straight guy.

Transphobia is the fear and or hatred of a trans person that triggers hateful and discriminatory behaviour towards said trans person. Some people may not have an issue dating trans people, and would be happy to continue dating a trans person when they were to find out if they didn't know already and that's great for that person. But equally I don't think its being strictly transphobic in every case f someone no longer being interested in someone, man or woman, were they to find out they were trans. Some people could work through it, others may not, but that doesn't to me fit the behaviour of a hateful and fearful person per se.

[Hazegurl]

Eh I think it's more like wondering how people can be so sure they will never be attracted to anyone who is trans? That's quite big and vast group of people in the end and isn't it better to keep options open than totally close that door.

I believe there is no such thing as a guarantee.  It's quite possible to fall in love with a person you've never thought you could love.  But that doesn't mean a person has to leave themselves open to dating everyone they meet. There has to be lines and standards, we all have them.  I could fall for a homeless man one day, that doesn't mean I have to include homeless men in my dating pool.  I don't have to do that, no matter how rotten life has been to them.  And I shouldn't be labeled a gold digger because I'm not heading down to the local soup kitchen for a life partner.

[MissOuJ]

Fair enough, people have different levels of work done. Looking at Andreja Pejic, I wouldn't have guessed.

 

It would be a trust issue to me. If I'm entering into a romantic relationship with someone, I'd want to know something like that. But this second paragraph is exactly my point. You decide what it means to you. Someone else might feel different. Somebody else might have already figured that out.

 

Exactly, and that's fair. You get to decide your boundaries and what you're comfortable with, and that's absolutely fine and how things should be, since compromising on issues that make you fundamentally uncomfortable or unhappy in a relationship are just going to make everyone miserable. I'm just pointing out that when you put up barriers which are rooted in misguided or erroneous presumptions, you're - quite inevitably - going to run into -isms that reinforce those presumptions.

 

My point wasn't that people are not allowed not to date trans people - or even that people who choose not to date trans people without a "sufficiently good" reason are automatically transphobic. My point is that blanket statements like "I don't find trans people attractive" (or "I don't find black people attractive") are usually rooted in certain prejudices and presumptions which almost always are transfobic (/racist).

 

 

I believe there is no such thing as a guarantee.  It's quite possible to fall in love with a person you've never thought you could love.  But that doesn't mean a person has to leave themselves open to dating everyone they meet. There has to be lines and standards, we all have them.  I could fall for a homeless man one day, that doesn't mean I have to include homeless men in my dating pool.  I don't have to do that, no matter how rotten life has been to them.  And I shouldn't be labeled a gold digger because I'm not heading down to the local soup kitchen for a life partner.

 

No, you shouldn't be, but I would honestly judge a person if their OKCupid / Tinder profile read "I only date people with 700,000+ year income" "No unemployed" or "Potential dating partners must have Bachelor's Degree or higher" or something else along those lines.

[Hazegurl]

No, you shouldn't be, but I would honestly judge a person if their OKCupid / Tinder profile read "I only date people with 700,000+ year income" "No unemployed" or "Potential dating partners must have Bachelor's Degree or higher" or something else along those lines.

And you shouldn't assume that because a person doesn't want to date a homeless man that you'll ever see a profile like that.

[o Ventus]

Probably the proper term would be hermaphrodite or intersex. Its a chromosomal condition that happen during fertilization but they're not ill. A lot of them usually present mild signs and symptoms that many goes undiagnosed. Anyone with XXY can choose to receive hormonal and surgical treatment to transition themselves as either gender or choose to stay non-binary and only take hormonal supplements for health reasons. There are several with XXY syndrome that do identify themselves as trans, like Caroline Cossey for instance. 
 

 

That's not intersex, and "hermaphrodite" when it comes to huamsn is so hilariously outdated and inaccurate a term that it boggles my mind to see people still actually use it. Humans are not and cannot be hermaphroditic, our biology simply is not wired that way. Intersex simply means that a person has both male and female genital tissue. They are still either male or female, not some mystical third gender or automatically trans or whatever other Tumblr garbage people want to label themselves with. XXY is trisomy. Literally, trisomy means you have 3 chromosomes where normally you should have 2. And yes, trisomy leads to debilitating medical issues. It's not just some random gender issue that you can use to score LGBT brownie points, it's a serious medical condition that in 99% of cases leads to aborted fetuses, and in the remaining 1% leads to fetuses born with severe defects.

 

This post shows that you are not familiar with what XXY actually entails, or what the effects of trisomy (dependent on the chromosome being affected) really are. What you're arguing would be like if I was talking to someone with Cystic Fibrosis and told them "no, your lungs and other internal organs aren't slowly dying, they're just DIFFERENT!" It's disingenuous and ignorant of what the condition actually entails.

[KaiserShep]

You'd think at least some small percentage would result in some sort of superhuman ability. 

[9TailsFox]

I think not. We can have clones and bring people from the dead, Miranda genetically modified born without mother, I pretty sure we can easy change body, or just have some drugs or alter brain for people to feel good in body they born with. it's like in baldarus gate expansion why would you be trans if you can change you body using magic or magical items Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity, and be what you want to be.

[Onewomanarmy]

Interesting topic and it certainly opened up some debate but I honestly don't see it ever happening in the ME universe. 

[Teabaggin Krogan]

Look my character banged a robot in fallout 4 just because it had a hot french accent. The technology in mass effect is undoubtedly advanced enough that sex change is like the least of their worries. And if you're still worrying, the answer is space magic.

 

And as long as they're not a special snowflake about it and that's not like their most defining character trait, sure let's have them. The more important thing is whether they're well written characters with multi-layered personalities and to a lesser degree whether they're hot. Other than that, who ****** cares.

[MissOuJ]

And you shouldn't assume that because a person doesn't want to date a homeless man that you'll ever see a profile like that.

 

...?

 

I didn't assume anything. I just pointed out that there's a world of difference between "being called a gold digger for not looking for a date in a soup kitchen" and begin shallow in general and actively singling out "lower class" individuals with elitist requirements like that. And honestly? I don't really have a problem with people showing their colours like that. More power to them and me, since that makes it easy for me to nope nope nope away. And that's not even to say that I wouldn't date a highly educated, employed person who makes 700k+ a year, just that people who outline those as their "minimum requirements" are the type of people I wouldn't date (or associate with by choice in general, because I just can't see how that could be enjoyable to either of us).

[78stonewobble]

I meant the absurdity of the Trek episode was how badly they mangled the message that was intended to be about homosexuality by portraying a hetero relationship with an alien who saw herself as female, played by a woman. Not that the false-equivalency you pointed out that being LGBT automatically means someone cannot be incapable of discrimination either.

 

You just have to look at the awful excuses given by the creators of Glee and Two Broke Girls for that kind of argument, who've denied accusations of racism because as gay writers, they "understood what it was like to be discriminated against"... despite the fact that ethnic stereotyping was rampant in Glee and is pretty much half of Two Broke Girls entire schtick.

 

Apologies for that slight tangent, but you were right in saying that discrimination can come from anywhere and be directed at anyone, regardless of who they are or what group they belong to.

 

It wasn't mangled... The message is universally applicable, whether it's eg. homosexuality or hetero is irrelevant.