671 réponses à ce sujet

[Killroy]

In a sense, but another angle is that an expedition like the ARK is going to need a high degree of social cohesion. The colony on the ARK represents the last chance for human society. As such, there aren't going to be many people included in the expedition who hold highly controversial or contrarian views. The individual we have been discussing would be a prime example of that. I would guess you wouldn't see many Amish (or their equivalent) or fundmentalist Muslims for similar reasons. They hold views that will create friction within the community, and the community has a limited number of individuals, enough so that it needs to stick together.

Like it or not, you need a community that can conform enough not to immediately become sub-divided and want to kill itself off as soon as it steps out of the boat. People going will be chosen with this in mind. Someone who openly refuses to transition when such a treatment is available may be tolerated by larger society back in the Milky Way, but may be too contrarian for a limited and closed society like the ARK one would have to be.

This is rather silly. You're acting like the ark is Arkansas. This is the future we're talking about, not hillbilly territory today. Assuming that the inclusion of a few trans people would tear apart the ark and doom it to failure is just dumb.

[DreamerM]

Writers writing awful characters for the sake of trying to catapult their agenda and they get negative feeback? Holy crap, what kinda of logic is this?

I see this accusation a lot: that a writer who includes a gay character in their story, or a trans character, or talks about issues like racism and rape and sexism is doing so because of an "agenda," like it's a sinister plot this person has or something. Like the whole reason this person even got into videogames as part of some sort of plan for SJW world domination! "he he he, today we will force them to play video games with transexual NPCs, tomorrow, WE WILL CASTRATE ALL THE WHITE MEN! MUAHAHAHAHA!" It's just silly.

Can't a writer just be legitimately interested in making a story with a more diverse cast, one that better reflects the real world? Can't they honestly think having trans people show up from time to time just like they do in the real world would make their fiction more convincing and deeper? Why does no one ever believe the people trying to better represent the different aspects of humanity are sincere and good in their intentions?

[DreamerM]

 I am trying to see why such a character would be necessary or relevant beyond simply proving how inclusive BioWare is if we assume the first premise to be true - that transgenders can freely transition.

Why is any character "relevant" or "neccessary?" Why do we need characters at all? Pong didn't have characters, and it did pretty well.

[Grieving Natashina]

@ fry I hid my previous post because it isn't my place to speak for others. Sorry about that.

Might as well be on topic for a sec:

Do I think that transgendered characters should be in ME? My personal opinion is that it's fine by me. I've had transgendered friends (RIP Hawk,) so I think it would be pretty neat to see a companion that is a transgendered person.

Just to be clear, I know that some folks feel very strongly against this. I don't agree, but I don't have any desire to really debate about that. It's not out of disrespect to the opinions of others, it's because my week is getting worse and I don't have the energy. I've read the support as well as the rebuttals, and I am aware of the counterarguments. I don't agree with the counterarguments, but whatever inflates someone's rubby ducky.

Would I romance a transgender man or woman? It depends upon their personality and attitude. If they have a personality like Jack, then no. I like Jack, but I did date women like her in the past. I've found that ladies like that are better off as friends. If they are more like, say, Isabela or Garrus (two of my favorite BW romances,) then I'd consider it. The personality would be more to my taste.

Again, to each their own. I won't try to change the feelings or opinions of others. It's just my two cents on the matter. Now if you'll excuse me, it's a beautiful day outside and the maple tree has leaves on it. I gonna go out back and read a book for awhile. I love spring in my home state.

[frylock23]

 

This is rather silly. You're acting like the ark is Arkansas. This is the future we're talking about, not hillbilly territory today. Assuming that the inclusion of a few trans people would tear apart the ark and doom it to failure is just dumb.

 

Oh, I'm sorry. I was just going off some of the hard sci-fi I've read where people did indeed fire off last ditch survival expeditions into the great empty in order to try to save the human race ...

 

These were the very types of discussions they had to have - who should go and why and how many.

 

When you have limited space and are looking at the survival of the entire species ... you are looking at between 1,000 to 10,000 individuals needed for minimum healthy genetic diversity. You can go with less, but then you increase inbreeding and reduce the number of alleles in your population. You also increase the need for careful breeding control. You can help this somewhat by carrying frozen genetic material with you.

 

Now, consider that you have other species and their cultures already in this ship. It is vitally important that everyone get along. If you think they are going to not be carefully screening everyone psychologically, then you are nuts. To me, the idea that anyone who simply refuses to conform to societal norms would be allowed on the ARK for any reason is hard to swallow.

 

Now, if we want to discard the idea that transgender people can seemlessly transition into whatever gender they feel they are in the Mass Effect future ... well alrighty then, we have another discussion entirely.

[frylock23]

Why is any character "relevant" or "neccessary?" Why do we need characters at all? Pong didn't have characters, and it did pretty well.

 

Because I assumed we had a story here. I write and lots of time I come up with characters and then realize that the narrative I have going has no place for them. They are neither relevant nor necessary, so I do what an editor does - a edit them out and save them for something else in the future.

[Killroy]

Oh, I'm sorry. I was just going off some of the hard sci-fi I've read where people did indeed fire off last ditch survival expeditions into the great empty in order to try to save the human race ...

These were the very types of discussions they had to have - who should go and why and how many.

When you have limited space and are looking at the survival of the entire species ... you are looking at between 1,000 to 10,000 individuals needed for minimum healthy genetic diversity. You can go with less, but then you increase inbreeding and reduce the number of alleles in your population. You also increase the need for careful breeding control. You can help this somewhat by carrying frozen genetic material with you.

Now, consider that you have other species and their cultures already in this ship. It is vitally important that everyone get along. If you think they are going to not be carefully screening everyone psychologically, then you are nuts. To me, the idea that anyone who simply refuses to conform to societal norms would be allowed on the ARK for any reason is hard to swallow.

Now, if we want to discard the idea that transgender people can seemlessly transition into whatever gender they feel they are in the Mass Effect future ... well alrighty then, we have another discussion entirely.

Why wouldn't you bring along genetic materials to ensure healthy genetic diversity? There's literally no reason not to, so your argument has very little merit. And if all we're looking for is societal conformity then why are we bringing along Krogans? Or any alien race for that matter? Are you saying trans people are more of a threat to human societal conformity than Krogans?

[Asdrubael Vect]

I am sure they would be in game as they would be in DA no matter what

 

and

 

No, this is really not make any sense as many s/s romances, cos really this is not even a ME1-3 type of story, but a military mission with colonist who need to repopulate new galaxy, and what was the point of sending gay human colonists as with asexuals colonist if they will not repopulate new planets

 

so for s/s romances and transgenders Me have Asari and they "make sense"(no actually not at all, and i do not understand why if our hero is work for humanity sake have alliens in his team, we cant be non-human and we work only for humans but for some reason have non-humans) and i was hope we do not see asari fanservice race and never will see some new Andromedian race who would be a male version of asari

 

the only thing why they would be in the game is only to please some of players and thats all, no story and logic sense at all, and they would just be in game for this single reason

[Battlebloodmage]

Oh, I'm sorry. I was just going off some of the hard sci-fi I've read where people did indeed fire off last ditch survival expeditions into the great empty in order to try to save the human race ...

 

These were the very types of discussions they had to have - who should go and why and how many.

 

When you have limited space and are looking at the survival of the entire species ... you are looking at between 1,000 to 10,000 individuals needed for minimum healthy genetic diversity. You can go with less, but then you increase inbreeding and reduce the number of alleles in your population. You also increase the need for careful breeding control. You can help this somewhat by carrying frozen genetic material with you.

 

Now, consider that you have other species and their cultures already in this ship. It is vitally important that everyone get along. If you think they are going to not be carefully screening everyone psychologically, then you are nuts. To me, the idea that anyone who simply refuses to conform to societal norms would be allowed on the ARK for any reason is hard to swallow.

 

Now, if we want to discard the idea that transgender people can seemlessly transition into whatever gender they feel they are in the Mass Effect future ... well alrighty then, we have another discussion entirely.

If reproduction is the purpose then those want are interested in aliens and those who are gays would be out as well, wouldn't it?

 

While I do agree that there is absolutely no reason if they could turn into the gender of their choosing, there is no reason for them not to unless they're ok with their current body but then that wouldn't be transgender. I just don't see why out of the fictional universe where people could imagine all kinds of advancement from creating a perfect human, modifying gene and chromosomes, somehow, they want to imagine a life where they still stuck in the wrong body and choose to stay that way. 

[Shechinah]

When you have limited space and are looking at the survival of the entire species ... you are looking at between 1,000 to 10,000 individuals needed for minimum healthy genetic diversity. You can go with less, but then you increase inbreeding and reduce the number of alleles in your population. You also increase the need for careful breeding control. You can help this somewhat by carrying frozen genetic material with you.

 

Now, consider that you have other species and their cultures already in this ship. It is vitally important that everyone get along. If you think they are going to not be carefully screening everyone psychologically, then you are nuts. To me, the idea that anyone who simply refuses to conform to societal norms would be allowed on the ARK for any reason is hard to swallow.

 

In this argument, are we assuming that non-transitioning transsexuals would be controversial by the societal norms of human society in the Mass Effect universe? I feel that is an important thing to establish since if they are not, I do not see how they'd be considered a problem in the social aspect of the ARK.

 

I apologize if I misunderstand some of your points: I'm a bit here and there at the moment so if it seems like I'm missing or ignoring some of your points, it's not by intention.   
 

[frylock23]

Why wouldn't you bring along genetic materials to ensure healthy genetic diversity? There's literally no reason not to, so your argument has very little merit. And if all we're looking for is societal conformity then why are we bringing along Krogans? Or any alien race for that matter? Are you saying trans people are more of a threat to human societal conformity than Krogans?

 

We don't know that we are bringing along Krogans. That makes very little sense too. If the ARK leaves before the resolution of the ME3, then the genophage is not cured and we're basically taking along a species with a very difficult viability problem that also has difficult long-term space flight problems.

 

I have a hard time believing that it's realistic to bring along Krogan and given the attitudes of the Dalatrass which seems to be common among Salarians, I have a hard time thinking they are all over the idea of loading the ARK with Krogan unless they can be tanked in some way and possibly not even then.

 

But since Krogan are fan favs, they'll be there ...

 

Now, back to the trans thing.

 

I am saying that a trans person who remains trans just 'cause when it is very easily possible to be what your brain tells you you are is a contrarian. It seems counter-intuitive, and I see no real reason why that character would be very common in the future and why that one in a million would be on the ARK except for BioWare to prove how inclusive they are. I don't care if there are trans characters who transition.

 

But again, this is ALL assuming trans people CAN transition. If they can't then this is all so much bloviating over nothing. A trans character is a trans character because the technology to transition perfectly doesn't exist, so why would it matter if someone is one way or the other, not much can be done about it either way. Then if BioWare puts that character in, all I care about is that they write an actual character and not a walking PSA for transgenderism whose personal quest has something to do with not getting to use the proper bathroom and locker room in thinly veiled reflection of our modern times. Doesn't mean there are ways to touch on it, but let the character be more than just that. Usually, they do a good job of it.

[Shechinah]

That's if all you want is genetic diversity. You also need societal stability. Like it or not, you need both male and female roles in society whoever provides those. Little boys and girls learn by watching the adults, and I'm not talking about being barefoot and pregnant or anything else, simply about how an adult male of the species should act and carry himself and interact both with others.

 

Remove one of them from society and you handicap society's social development to a degree.

 

I feel I must disagree as I do not believe we've seen much, if any, in the Mass Effect universe that's given the impression that roles in human society differ between gender. Behavior and interractions seem based on what is considered appropriate and acceptable by society but the behavior and interactions considered appropriate and acceptable is not influenced by the gender of the person in question. 

 

Perhaps you coud elaborate on what behavior and interactions you think these male and female roles would teach that is necessary? It become rather vague and difficult to discuss them elsewise, I think.
 

[AlanC9]

That's if all you want is genetic diversity. You also need societal stability. Like it or not, you need both male and female roles in society whoever provides those. Little boys and girls learn by watching the adults, and I'm not talking about being barefoot and pregnant or anything else, simply about how an adult male of the species should act and carry himself and interact both with others.

Remove one of them from society and you handicap society's social development to a degree.

I've heard this sort of thing before. It's never quite clear what bad thing is actually supposed to result.

Edit: do you have to actually care about gender roles to see it? That'd disqualify me.

[vbibbi]

This is kind of off topic, but out of genuine curiosity, if all non-transitioned transgender people were able to undergo surgery et al and become their desired gender, ignoring cost and other real world logistics, why would someone opt not to do so? It's come up a few times now where people have said that in an ideal world where the transition would be free, easy, and not time consuming, there would still be transgender people who would chose to remain as they are. I guess I don't understand this because I thought the ultimate desire for transgender people was to become the opposite gender?

[Seraphim24]

  step back and enjoy the game over worrying

 

Well the problem here is even if you do step back and take everything like objectively, it's not an absolute given that it's going to be enjoyable you know.

 

Ultimately, MEA is going to succeed or fail simply on whether it presents a positive and compelling experience for people, the more positive the better, the less, well, less, just like every other video game or media presentation, there is nothing special or unique about it in that sense.

[SlottsMachine]

On the topic of diversity and token npc characters. I don't really see the issue as long as its brought up naturally and there isn't a big deal made of it (or the option to make a big deal out of it). Links used a alternate Harkin that was gay as an example, and if Harkin directed his inappropriate comments towards Manshep as opposed to Femshep and that was that I'd be fine with it. But if some writer took the time to write dialogue for me to play twenty questions regarding Harkin's gayness I'd find that kinda dumb. 

[General TSAR]

I see this accusation a lot: that a writer who includes a gay character in their story, or a trans character, or talks about issues like racism and rape and sexism is doing so because of an "agenda," like it's a sinister plot this person has or something. Like the whole reason this person even got into videogames as part of some sort of plan for SJW world domination! "he he he, today we will force them to play video games with transexual NPCs, tomorrow, WE WILL CASTRATE ALL THE WHITE MEN! MUAHAHAHAHA!" It's just silly.

Can't a writer just be legitimately interested in making a story with a more diverse cast, one that better reflects the real world? Can't they honestly think having trans people show up from time to time just like they do in the real world would make their fiction more convincing and deeper? Why does no one ever believe the people trying to better represent the different aspects of humanity are sincere and good in their intentions?

Maybe you should get off your high horse and look at it this way.

 

There's a difference between putting in a gay or trans character who is both interesting and not a token character and putting in a character who is like "Hey! Look at me, look at my only defining characteristic" when you meet them. It also helps if the writer doesn't masturbate to their virtue signaling and tokenism.

 

Hence why I platonically love Dorian.

[frylock23]

This is kind of off topic, but out of genuine curiosity, if all non-transitioned transgender people were able to undergo surgery et al and become their desired gender, ignoring cost and other real world logistics, why would someone opt not to do so? It's come up a few times now where people have said that in an ideal world where the transition would be free, easy, and not time consuming, there would still be transgender people who would chose to remain as they are. I guess I don't understand this because I thought the ultimate desire for transgender people was to become the opposite gender?

 

I've been asking this as well.

 

The only reason I can see for it in this context is to have an openly transgender character.

 

The way to fix this problem is remove the issue of making it so easy to transition.

[AlanC9]

This is kind of off topic, but out of genuine curiosity, if all non-transitioned transgender people were able to undergo surgery et al and become their desired gender, ignoring cost and other real world logistics, why would someone opt not to do so? It's come up a few times now where people have said that in an ideal world where the transition would be free, easy, and not time consuming, there would still be transgender people who would chose to remain as they are. I guess I don't understand this because I thought the ultimate desire for transgender people was to become the opposite gender?

It's a good question. We have people rejecting the full procedure now, but part of that is no doubt because our methods are pretty crude and not completely effective.

Also, some people who reject the gender binary are thrown into the "transgender" box just because we don't have any other box for them.

[frylock23]

And for the rest of you:

 

For cripes sake! Get over it already.

 

I am not attacking the idea of the transgender character. What I am trying to do is figure out why, if we have sunshine 'n' roses world, where everyone can just dial up the body that matches their mental gender, we would still have a good argument for a traditional transgender character in this game. I personally just don't see a good reason for it beyond making the PSA character.

 

If you want your transgender character, then you remove the magic science that waves a wand and gives you the body of your dreams. Then you have the transgender character. Problem solved.

[vbibbi]

I've been asking this as well.

 

The only reason I can see for it in this context is to have an openly transgender character.

 

The way to fix this problem is remove the issue of making it so easy to transition.

 

I can understand why transgender players would like a trans character in the game for sake of inclusion. Because even if the future technology of ME has seamless transition reassignment techniques, we are still playing in the real world and like to see ourselves represented in games. So in that way I could understand the interest some would have in a non-transitioned transgender person. IMO the issue is more complex than racial or sexual orientation inclusion, though, since the crux of my understanding of transgender people is that their idealized version of themselves would just be someone of the opposite gender, while non-white and non-heterosexuals still want their personal identities included. If that makes any sense.

 

Of course, having a character in ME who has fully transitioned but still has the memory of having to go through the transition and living in the wrong gender up until that point could also work. The gender reassignment wouldn't happen until maturity, at least.

 

It's a good question. We have people rejecting the full procedure now, but part of that is no doubt because our methods are pretty crude and not completely effective.

Also, some people who reject the gender binary are thrown into the "transgender" box just because we don't have any other box for them.

 

I can only imagine the money and physical discomfort required in today's world for reassignment. So IMO it's hard to imagine a "magic button" in ME which hand-waves all of this difficulty.

[hotdogbsg]

Absolutely no issue with a Transgender character in ME:A, why would I?

 

I just hope they do a better job than Krem in DA:I. While the character was interesting and well written for a secondary role, the way they addressed the issue was really clumsy and jarring. To me it felt like a tickbox to show inclusiveness on Bioware's part although that was only due to bad writing and not the character himself. 

 

EDIT: Huh, I literally just type Krem into YT and came across a video where he talks with the Inquisitor about this. Never come across it on my playthroughs for some reason. Does a great job of going into the issue more compared to the short scene with the Iron Bull.

[Killroy]

We don't know that we are bringing along Krogans. That makes very little sense too. If the ARK leaves before the resolution of the ME3, then the genophage is not cured and we're basically taking along a species with a very difficult viability problem that also has difficult long-term space flight problems.
I have a hard time believing that it's realistic to bring along Krogan and given the attitudes of the Dalatrass which seems to be common among Salarians, I have a hard time thinking they are all over the idea of loading the ARK with Krogan unless they can be tanked in some way and possibly not even then.
But since Krogan are fan favs, they'll be there ...

Krogans are confirmed. Keep up.

Now, back to the trans thing.
I am saying that a trans person who remains trans just 'cause when it is very easily possible to be what your brain tells you you are is a contrarian. It seems counter-intuitive, and I see no real reason why that character would be very common in the future and why that one in a million would be on the ARK except for BioWare to prove how inclusive they are. I don't care if there are trans characters who transition.
But again, this is ALL assuming trans people CAN transition. If they can't then this is all so much bloviating over nothing. A trans character is a trans character because the technology to transition perfectly doesn't exist, so why would it matter if someone is one way or the other, not much can be done about it either way. Then if BioWare puts that character in, all I care about is that they write an actual character and not a walking PSA for transgenderism whose personal quest has something to do with not getting to use the proper bathroom and locker room in thinly veiled reflection of our modern times. Doesn't mean there are ways to touch on it, but let the character be more than just that. Usually, they do a good job of it.

Your entire argument is based on a logical fallacy. Any person who is different is disruptive and dangerous? That's an argument for a totalitarian society and basically a one-ethnicity society.

[Shechinah]

I can only imagine the money and physical discomfort required in today's world for reassignment. So IMO it's hard to imagine a "magic button" in ME which hand-waves all of this difficulty.

 

I should preface this possibly bit ranty post by saying that this was not transition surgery. It was jaw surgery for those interested and was considered necessary enough for my health that the majority of the bill was footed;

 

I underwent an operation about a year or so ago: it is considered a routine procedure but the thing is and as the doctors would tell me post-surgery; it is considered normal and is downright expected that you feel as if it is the worst decision you have ever made and I can safely say, it did feel like that. I cannot properly describe what it felt like to go through the recovery period so I'll describe it thusly; it was like living through a horrible nightmare. My recovery period took over a month but each week felt like a month in itself. I required so much care and emotional support. My mother went out of her way to be there and help me. Without it, that hospital window in my room would have started to look more and more inviting each day.      

 

This is likely part of why the following response to someone not wanting to go through surgery for something is a bit of a beserk button for me; "You must not want it badly enough then".

 

To not want to go through surgery is not an indication, to me, that a person do not want something badly enough because surgery, even routine and safe, can be a nightmare that can last even up to a year and no one should feel pressured to put themselves through that because they feel pressured for someone else's acceptance nor do it if they do not feel it is necessary. 

 

If I did not have the immense support I did, the window in my hospital room would have started to look inviting more and more each day.

 

There are a number of reasons why some people do not want surgery and treatments and if one of the reasons are "I do not think I could handle it", I'll certaintly not think less of them for it. I'll be more likely to commend them for being able to admit that to themselves because that can be incredibly hard but can be incredibly necessary.    

 

Note: This is not directed as a rant against you, vbibbi, this part of your post just reminded me of this.   
 

[AlanC9]

I am not attacking the idea of the transgender character. What I am trying to do is figure out why, if we have sunshine 'n' roses world, where everyone can just dial up the body that matches their mental gender, we would still have a good argument for a traditional transgender character in this game. I personally just don't see a good reason for it beyond making the PSA character.
 

OK, but then how come you got into that weird tangent about genetic diversity? A non-transitioned transgendered person has the same reproductive ability he or she ever did.