671 réponses à ce sujet

[Cyonan]

The Witcher 3 isn't really a good comparison for a couple reasons. First, Geralt is a fully predetermined character rather than a character left up to the player. Second, both relationships are ones established in the books and previous games whereas Dragon Age has a newcomer as a protagonist. 

 

I'd say it's a fine comparison because, even ignoring the books, TW3 simply gives more time to each romance. They get more in-depth and have more time to develop than the romances in Inquisition or even Mass Effect where the romances are established in previous games as well.

 

Overall Inquisition I would say had more total romance content, but TW3 put more into each romance. With the 8 that Inquisition had I don't think it was terrible, but I don't think they should be going any higher than that number.

[9TailsFox]

I see this accusation a lot: that a writer who includes a gay character in their story, or a trans character, or talks about issues like racism and rape and sexism is doing so because of an "agenda," like it's a sinister plot this person has or something. Like the whole reason this person even got into videogames as part of some sort of plan for SJW world domination! "he he he, today we will force them to play video games with transexual NPCs, tomorrow, WE WILL CASTRATE ALL THE WHITE MEN! MUAHAHAHAHA!" It's just silly.

Can't a writer just be legitimately interested in making a story with a more diverse cast, one that better reflects the real world? Can't they honestly think having trans people show up from time to time just like they do in the real world would make their fiction more convincing and deeper? Why does no one ever believe the people trying to better represent the different aspects of humanity are sincere and good in their intentions?

Look a Baldur's gate siege of dragonspear and tell me it's not pushing. Changing already established characters and calling it "improvement". And characters are not even possessed like Anders in DA2 they just change for no reason just because SJ. making trans character in world where we have magical items The Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity or just drink potion. All the time i was thinking trans just want to be opposite sex. I understand Krem blood magic most of the time involve dead people, and only few people in DA could do something like this Flemeth/Solas. but in Baldur's gate you can and not even hard. And in mass effect we have space magic science genetic manipulation cloning bringing people from the dead. Just do some small brain operation, oh my body is fine thanks dock, have a nice day.

Baldur's gate siege of dragonspear not just buggy mess, its writer is SJ activist, you get writing worse than mass effect 3 ending.

[Sifr]

That's a terrible idea. You're cool with a trans protagonist, I don't. I don't identity with a trans character, I make a character that resemble me, in term of sex, gender, and race. This is why often advocate for more race variety in Bioware character creation. I wouldn't be role playing as myself, but it would just be watching a character that is not myself playing the game. It wouldn't be role playing game. Fantasy race is one thing, but real life identity is another thing. That's why no one bat an eyelash at fantasy racism and slavery but using real life discrimination is a big deal. 

 

So... if Bioware revealed tomorrow that a character you'd previously played was canonically trans, you'd suddenly not enjoy them anymore?

 

Plus, the sheer fact that you're playing as the Warden, Shepard, Revan, Hawke or the Inquisitor means that you're never roleplaying as yourself, but rather as that character as you play the game. Unless you happen to be a Warden, Spare Marine, Jedi, Refugee or have a Glowing Hand, I don't think you are "you" when you're going through a Bioware game already.

 

This is what bothered me when people criticised DA2, because how was playing as just Hawke any different from the pre-defined name, backstory and limited dialogue options we had before and after DA2? The only difference was we didn't have any other characters to choose from... but how was that different from Revan in KOTOR or Shepard in ME?

[Battlebloodmage]

I'd say it's a fine comparison because, even ignoring the books, TW3 simply gives more time to each romance. They get more in-depth and have more time to develop than the romances in Inquisition or even Mass Effect where the romances are established in previous games as well.

 

Overall Inquisition I would say had more total romance content, but TW3 put more into each romance. With the 8 that Inquisition had I don't think it was terrible, but I don't think they should be going any higher than that number.

To be fair, they only have 6 options, so everyone has 2 options. They only add 2 more options for straight females during extra time. I guess they could have use that time for extra contents for the original 6, but they decide to add 2 more options. As I said though, Witcher only has straight male protagonist, while a large number of people also play female protagonist, so if 2 for each gender like the Witcher would be 4 options. That seems like good if they're in-depth. DA2 was pretty shallow, but it was rushed, I supposed.  

[Seraphim24]

You know something else to consider here simply is that however stand on this sort of thing I'd say this is fairly certain... not going to say it's automatically bad but simply true

 

1. Bioware developers will probably just do whatever they personally find best for any given thing, what people say here really won't change that, it seems.

2. Bioware players and fans will believe whatever they personally find best for any given thing, it is again, probably mostly irrelevant what other people say to oppose that, since they will just continue believing what ever they believe.

 

So I mean, maybe just accepting the overall powerlessness in this situation is appropriate and might provide some degree of respite? Whatever your stance is, it probably mostly essentially in most instances won't matter.

 

They have an identity of some kind and they're mostly just going to roll with that, in many instances, it provides fulfilling and positive experiences so again not necessarily bad, just saying it's a fairly substantial identity that is unlikely to change.

 

Believe it or not, "vigorously trying to understand issue X" is ultimately an identity all it's own, when you think about it.

[Battlebloodmage]

So... if Bioware revealed tomorrow that a character you'd previously played was canonically trans, you'd suddenly not enjoy them anymore?

 

Plus, the sheer fact that you're playing as the Warden, Shepard, Revan, Hawke or the Inquisitor means that you're never roleplaying as yourself, but rather as that character as you play the game. Unless you happen to be a Warden, Spare Marine, Jedi, Refugee or have a Glowing Hand, I don't think you are "you" when you're going through a Bioware game already.

 

This is what bothered me when people criticised DA2, because how was playing as just Hawke any different from the pre-defined name, backstory and limited dialogue options we had before and after DA2? The only difference was we didn't have any other characters to choose from... but how was that different from Revan in KOTOR or Shepard in ME?

Yes, I wouldn't. Sexuality, gender, and race are still defined by you, real world attributes. Forcing a real world attribute like trans is another matter.

 

You're once again using fantasy characteristics to compare to real world characteristics. I'm not a space marine but people are still either gay, straight, bisexual, or female or female. Forcing a trans status removes certain real world identity from it.

[ModernAcademic]

And if they were romance options would you romance them?

 

Very likely. For some weird reason, I find some transgender women attractive. I don't like the ones that look like tough male guys, who drink booze, lift heayy weight and other ****. I prefer bookworms in general. Or people who prefer to talk and share ideas instead of spending the entire day at the gym or at the local pub.

 

But then again, I'm attracted to men in general, to the male figure. So I guess I'm bisexual, with an inclination to heterosexuality.

 

 

Mass Effect is the future. If the world doesn't suffer from a social cataclysm that makes civilisation devolve hundreds of years, then we should expect to see transgenders, bisexuals, gays, asexuals, genderfluids and other manifestations of sexuality - or the lack thereof - to be considered common place in the series. That's the point of scifi, anyway, at least in part: to question current standards by showing a possible future that contradicts prejudiced views of today and present a new way to think, a new way to envision a familiar situation.

 

So far the only acknowledgement of diverse sexuality has been through the asari. The rest is the old boring male/female pairing of usual. And the big brute with the machine gun to shoot down people and slap some hot chick's arse. Miranda's arse, in that case.

[Draining Dragon]

Although Bioware has already stated that the majority of people didn't use the romance content. Instead of a bunch of sexuality, just make 2-4 all bi options if they want to go cutting down and focus on deep contents. It's not like bisexuality were handled well in any Bioware game anyway.

I agree. That's the most efficient way to ensure everybody has a decent set of romance options. I don't care if it's unrealistic.

[Sifr]

Yes, I wouldn't. Sexuality, gender, and race are still defined by you, real world attributes. Forcing a real world attribute like trans is another matter.

 

You're once again using fantasy characteristics to compare to real world characteristics. I'm not a space marine but people are still either gay, straight, bisexual, or female or female. Forcing a trans status removes certain real world identity from it.

 

You do know that in the real world, trans people can also be gay, straight, bisexual, as well as identify as male or female, right?

[Seraphim24]

I'd say it's a fine comparison because, even ignoring the books, TW3 simply gives more time to each romance. They get more in-depth and have more time to develop than the romances in Inquisition or even Mass Effect where the romances are established in previous games as well.

 

Overall Inquisition I would say had more total romance content, but TW3 put more into each romance. With the 8 that Inquisition had I don't think it was terrible, but I don't think they should be going any higher than that number.

 

I really don't understand why the pre-set character is such a big deal to be honest.

[Battlebloodmage]

You do know that in the real world, trans people can also be gay, straight, bisexual, as well as identify as male or female, right?

Yes, and major amount of those people are not trans, making the protagonist to be trans for a tiny tiny amount of people are not gonna happen. There's a reason why there are not a lot of gay protagonists, left alone a trans one. 

[Cyonan]

To be fair, they only have 6 options, so everyone has 2 options. They only add 2 more options for straight females during extra time. I guess they could have use that time for extra contents for the original 6, but they decide to add 2 more options. As I said though, Witcher only has straight male protagonist, while a large number of people also play female protagonist, so if 2 for each gender like the Witcher would be 4 options. That seems like good if they're in-depth. DA2 was pretty shallow, but it was rushed, I supposed.  

 

My whole point is that as you get more total romance options each one gets less content and that, at some point if you keep adding new options you're going to run into the problem of too many options with too little content to go around. The Witcher 3 was merely an example as to what can happen with a greater focus on a less total number of romance arcs.

 

I'm not trying to say one approach is better than the other. I don't particularly want to get into a debate about which one I think is better since this isn't really the thread for that. I'm merely pointing out that if you keep adding options, it will become problematic at some point and you'll have to make decisions.

[Sartoz]

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"...Can't a writer just be legitimately interested in making a story with a more diverse cast, one that better reflects the real world? Can't they honestly think having trans people show up from time to time just like they do in the real world would make their fiction more convincing and deeper?...."

 

In a book, yes. In a Mass Effect game? No. Andromeda is a game about colonization, survival and not about social justice.

 

Better yet, put them in the SIMS game.

[DreamerM]

Look a Baldur's gate siege of dragonspear and tell me it's not pushing. 

.... It's not pushing. There's one line of dialog from an extremely minor npc available only if you ask a specific question. If that counts as "pushing" then I don't understand your definition of the word.




...And does it strike anyone else as creepy that all these (presumably) CIS forumites would spend 20+ pages debating whether transexual people can or should exist in any fictionalized context? Maybe if they all completed their transitions and it was a non-issue that no one ever talked about ever, MAYBE then it would be ok? But probably not?

...Ugh.

[Cyonan]

...And does it strike anyone else as creepy that all these (presumably) CIS forumites would spend 20+ pages debating whether transexual people can or should exist in any fictionalized context? Maybe if they all completed their transitions and it was a non-issue that no one ever talked about ever, MAYBE then it would be ok? But probably not?

...Ugh.

 

It's more a testament to the fact that BioWare has given us so little information about the game that we start getting into romance threads about just about anything.

 

Actually, a trans romance thread is pretty tame compared to some of the stuff I've seen around these parts. I know this thread wasn't specifically intended as a romance thread, but it's basically one at this point.

[DreamerM]

In a book, yes. In a Mass Effect game? No. Andromeda is a game about colonization, survival and not about social justice.

.... I'm sorry but... what? Any time you have people in a group, you are dealing wish some sort of "social justice" just in the context of how that group relates to each other. A game "about colonialization, and survival" is going to be dealing with people in some very fraught, high tension situations. That tension can come from all sorts of areas. Especially if romance is an option, you are going to be getting to know PEOPLE, and some people are trans. Please find some way to deal with it.

[9TailsFox]

.... It's not pushing. There's one line of dialog from an extremely minor npc available only if you ask a specific question. If that counts as "pushing" then I don't understand your definition of the word.




...And does it strike anyone else as creepy that all these (presumably) CIS forumites would spend 20+ pages debating whether transexual people can or should exist in any fictionalized context? Maybe if they all completed their transitions and it was a non-issue that no one ever talked about ever, MAYBE then it would be ok? But probably not?

...Ugh.

Continue reading. It's not just one NPC. And writer not even denying she want to push her agenda. And I don't know if I meet someone new first think come from my mouth is not "hi I have penis" Look at Krem in DA he don't talk about what is between legs since later in game. Or gnom calling you racist get lost you lukcy you not shemlen or get arrow in the face. SJ bs ruing RPG Do you know what rpg is? In DA Dorian done good you can call out him being selfish and not respecting family. If you want trans treated like normal in RPG you must have at least 1) yes lets be friends. 2) I don't care about you. 3) Trow out through airlock.

Patric weeks told in some interview if you want to be jerk to trans people not gone happen. I thought it was RPG this DA:I problem you good or neutral. What happened to murdering wounded solders or other people for now reason, threatening priest, sacrificing you family if you elf for blood magic ritual for just 2 con points, making deals with desire demon, elfs love other elf help him or bang elf yourself, being racist to shemlens, being racist to knifears, Ok I can go on all day DA:O have all of it. DA:O manage to have great personal story (human noble) not personal story epic story and have many RP opportunity's at the same time.

[Fandango]

It's not really a problem of pandering as much as it's a problem that BioWare's most recent LGBT characters can, at times, come across with all the subtlety of a wrecking ball.

 

It makes the characters feel like a walking PSA when they're doing that, which isn't really what I want to see in my video game characters.

 

Then yours is a complaint about poorly drawn characters, not LGBT ones. 

[Hazegurl]

Patric weeks told in some interview if you want to be jerk to trans people not gone happen.

See, it's crap like that that's the problem.  Don't add Trans characters then hold the player's hand like some overgrown child. If my Character hates everyone and treats everyone dismissively then why on earth would s/he suddenly be all sensitive toward a trans person? What makes them so super special awesome and worthy of the highest respect? Doing justice to the character is placing them in a position of being treated the same as any other character in the game.  That's like allowing your kid in the play pen but you're gonna wrap them in bubble wrap to make sure they aren't harmed by the other children. 

 

BW might as well not even bother if they're too scared to do it in any other way than a podium speech and a sob story.

[Cyonan]

Then yours is a complaint about poorly drawn characters, not LGBT ones. 

 

It's a complaint that is rather specific to LGBT characters.

 

but yes if the characters weren't poorly written it wouldn't be an issue. That's why the complaints center around Krem or Dorian's companion quest. I haven't seen many people complaining about Iron Bull or Josephine as characters more so than the rest of the characters get(because obviously every character is going to get a little hate).

 

Even in Mass Effect most of the complaints are about Cortez and not Traynor. It's because Cortez is a pretty 1 dimensional character.

[Fandango]

It's a complaint that is rather specific to LGBT characters.
 
but yes if the characters weren't poorly written it wouldn't be an issue. That's why the complaints center around Krem or Dorian's companion quest. I haven't seen many people complaining about Iron Bull or Josephine as characters more so than the rest of the characters get(because obviously every character is going to get a little hate).
 
Even in Mass Effect most of the complaints are about Cortez and not Traynor. It's because Cortez is a pretty 1 dimensional character.

I'll make common cause with anyone asking for better characterisation, but (not that you're making this argument) that shouldn't preclude bioware from writing LGBT characters for ME:A. Glad we're on the same page.

[BobZilla84]

Well if we are asking for stuff to be added all I wanna know is wheres the damn Dwarfs "Little People" seriously here we are talking about adding Trans People to which I'm ok with but another Mass Effect game that doesn't have Dwarfs is BS.

[SnakeCode]

Y'know, the more people seem to complain about having a trans character soapboxing or included as a romance because of inclusion, the more I think we should just bite the bullet and instead make our lead protagonist possibly trans.

 

No-one could complain about soapboxing if we're the ones in the driving seat who decides if we want to discuss it or not. Nor would the appears of a trans character who can be romance seem "forced", because we'd always be in a trans relationship regardless of whom we ended up with.

 

I'm entirely cool with the idea of playing a protagonist who's trans... really, why does that present a problem for some people?

 

We're not (all) jacked or stacked dwarves, giants with grey skin and horns, or short, lithe and with pointed ears... yet it didn't seem to diminish the enjoyment factor of people playing these characters in Dragon Age? Why should playing a trans character be any different?

 

Wait, are you saying that people shouldn't be given a choice? People create their character as a male or female as they would normally only to find out that they're trans in game? I have to say, that sounds like a terrible idea.

[Panda]

See, it's crap like that that's the problem.  Don't add Trans characters then hold the player's hand like some overgrown child. If my Character hates everyone and treats everyone dismissively then why on earth would s/he suddenly be all sensitive toward a trans person? What makes them so super special awesome and worthy of the highest respect? Doing justice to the character is placing them in a position of being treated the same as any other character in the game.  That's like allowing your kid in the play pen but you're gonna wrap them in bubble wrap to make sure they aren't harmed by the other children. 

 

BW might as well not even bother if they're too scared to do it in any other way than a podium speech and a sob story.

 

To be fair it was more about that you can't be jerk about someone being trans. There should be no reason why can't you be jerk to trans character about other things than his/her transness.

[In Exile]

See, it's crap like that that's the problem.  Don't add Trans characters then hold the player's hand like some overgrown child. If my Character hates everyone and treats everyone dismissively then why on earth would s/he suddenly be all sensitive toward a trans person? What makes them so super special awesome and worthy of the highest respect? Doing justice to the character is placing them in a position of being treated the same as any other character in the game.  That's like allowing your kid in the play pen but you're gonna wrap them in bubble wrap to make sure they aren't harmed by the other children. 

 

BW might as well not even bother if they're too scared to do it in any other way than a podium speech and a sob story.

 

You're right. Bioware's cowardice is evident from the first moment in DA:O when we meet Duncan and there's no option to wax about the inferiority of his dark skin. Imagine! No chance to make an IRL political statement about a prejudice that doesn't exist in-setting. How dare Bioware put a non-existence in-setting issue on the same level as other non-existent in-setting issues. Everyone knows games have to treat all current event, political topics as a fundamental part of the setting and allow people to experience whatever opinion they want (read: hate filled tirade). 

 

Developers like Bioware - and the cowardly CDPR, well-known for their fear of offending others by not including even one homophobic or sexist rant - are an embarrassment to RPG development.