671 réponses à ce sujet

[DreamerM]

Continue reading. It's not just one NPC. And writer not even denying she want to push her agenda.

... was there another trans NPC in Balder's gate and nobody told me? And again, what does "push her agenda" really mean, in context?  An agenda is a "to do" list, as far as I can tell, so was she just ticking off things on her "SJW World Domination" checklist? Because if you're saying everyone who wants to address a social issue in the context of fiction (including video games) is doing so out of some sort of sinister plot to dominate all of everything....that...just...sounds silly. 

[DreamerM]

Wait, are you saying that people shouldn't be given a choice? People create their character as a male or female as they would normally only to find out that they're trans in game?

In this context you would be playing as a pre-made character, like one of the umpteen heroes with amnesia who discovers who he or she is through the course of the game. Except in this case, you'd be discovering the character you are playing as is trans. You are in the driver's seat as you figure out who in your character's social circle can be trusted with this information. When is the right time to bring it up? And so on.

...Actually that'd be an interesting game.

[SnakeCode]

You're right. Bioware's cowardice is evident from the first moment in DA:O when we meet Duncan and there's no option to wax about the inferiority of his dark skin. Imagine! No chance to make an IRL political statement about a prejudice that doesn't exist in-setting. How dare Bioware put a non-existence in-setting issue on the same level as other non-existent in-setting issues. Everyone knows games have to treat all current event, political topics as a fundamental part of the setting and allow people to experience whatever opinion they want (read: hate filled tirade). 

 

Developers like Bioware - and the cowardly CDPR, well-known for their fear of offending others by not including even one homophobic or sexist rant - are an embarrassment to RPG development. 

 

That's a lovely strawman you have, but Hazegurl never said you should be allowed to attack them because they are trans, but despite them being trans. You can insult people without bringing up race or gender. The argument is that if you're playing as a dick in game, you should be able to be a dick to everyone. If you're going around insulting everyone and then you reach a trans character and your options are three variations of "nice to meet you" then it's not only jarring, but saying a certain group of people are off limits is highlighting that they are different, a special case. Trans characters don't need to be wrapped up in cotton wool.

[DreamerM]

Trans characters don't need to be wrapped up in cotton wool.

... is this a good time to point out that real life trans people face the highest levels of homicide and domestic abuse in the world? No?.... ok...

[SnakeCode]

... is this a good time to point out that real life trans people face the highest levels of homicide and domestic abuse in the world? No?.... ok...

 

Which is completely irrelevant.

[BobZilla84]

To be fair it was more about that you can't be jerk about someone being trans. There should be no reason why can't you be jerk to trans character about other things than his/her transness.

 

Honestly though any character that is added just to placate the different Groups out there like SJW/LGTB are BS unless the character is well written into the overall Narrative and theres actually a reason to give a damn about them but if not then they can go **** themselves.

[Hazegurl]

You're right. Bioware's cowardice is evident from the first moment in DA:O when we meet Duncan and there's no option to wax about the inferiority of his dark skin. Imagine! No chance to make an IRL political statement about a prejudice that doesn't exist in-setting.

I'm not talking about bringing up a character's transness in a negative light.  I'm talking about being a jerk period. Or just plain dismissive to the character.

 

"I don't care about your issues, just do your damn job." or "Shut up and get to work."

 

To be fair it was more about that you can't be jerk about someone being trans. There should be no reason why can't you be jerk to trans character about other things than his/her transness.

 

Now this sheds more light on the context of Weeke's statement. It'll be stupid to let a character be transphobic in a world where that isn't a thing. 

 

However, I still consider BW's treatment of the Dorian quest and Krem convo (with IB) to be poorly handled and contained some level of kid gloves.  Why I can't I tell Dorian to "suck it up and deal with his daddy issues." then split. Or say "Since you asked me to stay, my opinion as a noble is that you should do your duty to your family, bye."

 

I'm not saying Dorian should listen to me, he could very well tell me to go *u*k myself. But at least it adds some level of replayability to my character.

[Panda]

Honestly though any character that is added just to placate the different Groups out there like SJW/LGTB are BS unless the character is well written into the overall Narrative and theres actually a reason to give a damn about them but if not then they can go **** themselves.

 

If you are talking about Krem he would be character in the game even if he wasn't trans. And I don't think LGBT+ characters existence should be anymore justified than straight non-trans one's. Some character can be more minor and flat and that's okay even if they are LGBT+, some are more complex and major and LGBT+.

[BobZilla84]

If you are talking about Krem he would be character in the game even if he wasn't trans. And I don't think LGBT+ characters existence should be anymore justified than straight non-trans one's. Some character can be more minor and flat and that's okay even if they are LGBT+, some are more complex and major and LGBT+.

 

Dont get me wrong Panda I love both Dorian/Krem I just hate when B-Ware turns potentally awesome Characters into PSAs for BS seriously Krem had alot of potental but ended up as a joke .

[9TailsFox]

In this context you would be playing as a pre-made character, like one of the umpteen heroes with amnesia who discovers who he or she is through the course of the game. Except in this case, you'd be discovering the character you are playing as is trans. You are in the driver's seat as you figure out who in your character's social circle can be trusted with this information. When is the right time to bring it up? And so on.

...Actually that'd be an interesting game.

NO amnesia just STOP it already. I want like Mass Effect Shepard have box of text what happened in the past. NO amnesia. Please.

[9TailsFox]

I'm not talking about bringing up a character's transness in a negative light.  I'm talking about being a jerk period. Or just plain dismissive to the character.

 

"I don't care about your issues, just do your damn job." or "Shut up and get to work."

 

Now this sheds more light on the context of Weeke's statement. It'll be stupid to let a character be transphobic in a world where that isn't a thing. 

 

However, I still consider BW's treatment of the Dorian quest and Krem convo (with IB) to be poorly handled and contained some level of kid gloves.  Why I can't I tell Dorian to "suck it up and deal with his daddy issues." then split. Or say "Since you asked me to stay, my opinion as a noble is that you should do your duty to your family, bye."

 

I'm not saying Dorian should listen to me, he could very well tell me to go *u*k myself. But at least it adds some level of replayability to my character.

I pretty sure where is line to call out Dorian for being selfish "You being selfish" or something like this, but i don't know what actual line sound like, it can mean absolutely different think, stupid paraphrases. And I understand why some people think Dorian quest is focus on him being gay but it's arranged marriage you can do same think if he was straight to marry girl he don't love. Stupid Trevelyan parents couldn't find my Inquisitor some princes, Cassandra don't want to marry and she just 34 in line to the throne, how do you expect me to kill 33 people?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I pretty sure where is line to call out Dorian for being selfish "You being selfish" or something like this, but i don't know what actual line sound like, it can mean absolutely different think, stupid paraphrases. And I understand why some people think Dorian quest is focus on him being gay but it's arranged marriage you can do same think if he was straight to marry girl he don't love. Stupid Trevelyan parents couldn't find my Inquisitor some princes, Cassandra don't want to marry and she just 34 in line to the throne, how do you expect me to kill 33 people?

*looks at your Alucard avatar*

...go for a walk? 

[Asdrubael Vect]

Continue reading. It's not just one NPC. And writer not even denying she want to push her agenda. And I don't know if I meet someone new first think come from my mouth is not "hi I have penis" Look at Krem in DA he don't talk about what is between legs since later in game. Or gnom calling you racist get lost you lukcy you not shemlen or get arrow in the face. SJ bs ruing RPG Do you know what rpg is? In DA Dorian done good you can call out him being selfish and not respecting family. If you want trans treated like normal in RPG you must have at least 1) yes lets be friends. 2) I don't care about you. 3) Trow out through airlock.

Patric weeks told in some interview if you want to be jerk to trans people not gone happen. I thought it was RPG this DA:I problem you good or neutral. What happened to murdering wounded solders or other people for now reason, threatening priest, sacrificing you family if you elf for blood magic ritual for just 2 con points, making deals with desire demon, elfs love other elf help him or bang elf yourself, being racist to shemlens, being racist to knifears, Ok I can go on all day DA:O have all of it. DA:O manage to have great personal story (human noble) not personal story epic story and have many RP opportunity's at the same time.

Dorian was not actually, Bull was the only one..i am not count sera who we can send far away cos no matter what and she was do and insult us(land we are lord Inquisitor who can execute dukes and magisters), she cant be executed and she was some noone peasant criminal....they do the same with Isabella ans especially with Tallis, even resurrect Lelianna with cheap and almost nothing what explain her "ghost" thing and how Venatory does not know about such

 

No matter what we do and say Dorian ends with Inquisition(via Maevaris who was connected with Inquisition no matter what) and became a Magister with seat in Senat for nothing to became a "Tevinter opposition"(and i was not want to use Inquisition for them as was do a alliance with Archon).....and i am sure and fear that bio would make them forced characters-advisors/companion to our heroes again as they do with Lelianna, her friend Josephine and now Charter(another bard bi/lesbian who would replace Lelianna), Dagna(and bio was retcon her orientation from DAO when she was like mens with hairy chests, as what they do with DAOA Anders who always said about females as running/returning for them, and never about carl who was appear from nothing)

 

Bioware do worst in DAi, i really miss DAO companion system and where our choices matters atleast in this, now our choices does not matter at all

 

Me1-ME2(and i was love that we mush care and do things so our crew will not die, we feel that) was good and one of the worst thing what they do is ME3 with  Liara/Cortes/Traynor who will not harm in any way and bio forcing them to be our "good friends" for nothing when we have few years with others companions, and they even in Citadel DLC put those 3 in our party before any our real friends with who we have real connections and adventures, and we have no choice on "our party"

 

traynor even swim in our bath like we are not her damn commander/spectre and military code does not exist(as a Vega do too, but atleast he is N7, still miss the option to send him in another places to fight), others are not from alliance and not our subordinates but she does, and she does not do such...even Cerberus Kelly do such, traynor was the most useless member of the ship(as with guys near "scaning for weapons thing") and her toothbrush thing and content with it was stupid

 

And having Cortez(and he not even wear armor and not a n7 commando who can really fight) does not makes much sense where we(and our companions) can perfectlly operate mako/hammerhead and kadiak transport on our own as with flying car what we do in ME2

 

they just put them for representation and force us to have them just for having them

 

i was like Kaiden. zevran and bull as fenris(we can deal with them as we choose, we could agree and protect, or not agree and fight against them), and like how witcher(and some others games, especially old) show us heroes, and if bio wanted to show us someone it is good that they will not make them special(i understand and have nothing against Flemeth/Morrigan/Solas types, they are different story) and give us option to treat them equally as all others, and we can not agree and kill others what we are not considerate our friends/ally, and bio now does not give us affect their lives(we does not need to fight for their lives if we want those characters by our side and we cant fight agains them if we do not want those)....i was happy with templar Cullen option(still wanted to judge him for kirkwall crimes) with lyrium and with qunari Bull betrayal/execution, as with Kaiden in ME3

[fhs33721]

That's a lovely strawman you have, but Hazegurl never said you should be allowed to attack them because they are trans, but despite them being trans. You can insult people without bringing up race or gender. The argument is that if you're playing as a dick in game, you should be able to be a dick to everyone. If you're going around insulting everyone and then you reach a trans character and your options are three variations of "nice to meet you" then it's not only jarring, but saying a certain group of people are off limits is highlighting that they are different, a special case. Trans characters don't need to be wrapped up in cotton wool.

You can literally get Krem killed for a unreliable at best alliance with the Qunari, in the game. Doesn't seem very wrapped up in cotton wool to me.

Did you want the option to teabag his corpse afterwards?

[DreamerM]

Which is completely irrelevant.

My point is, it's not hard to find people who believe violence against transexuals is completely justified. Did anyone besides me see the ugly "tranny bashing" videos made from Balder's Gate, where the gamers just couldn't let a trans person live? That wasn't deep role playing, that was "ew, get this icky man-woman out of my game space."

The game tried to present this character's nature as a non-issue, so you couldn't make it an issue. But of course they made it an issue anyway, and now all anyone can talk about is this one damn NPC. Meanwhile, some game developer somewhere is proposing, "why not make this character trans?" and getting the answer, "oh god no, you remember Balder's Gate? It would turn into a THING." And nothing ever gets better. 

[MissOuJ]

Why would / should minority NPCs "justify" their existence in the game world when majority characters don't?

 

We spend literally tens and hundreds of hours meeting, discussing with, defending and fighting with white male NPCs in games with no backstory or story arch to speak of. Why must their existence magically gain "justification" the moment they are female / POC / LGBT? Do we expect a detailed explanation to "why is there a straight person in this game?" every time an NPC mentions an opposite sex significant other? Do we expect detailed in-world explanation to "why are there white / Caucasian people in this world?" when we run into (yet another) white / Caucasian NPC? If not - why should we expect that from minority characters? Isn't the implied explanation "LGBT / POC exist" enough?

 

I just really, really don't get it. What is there to be judgmental of? What do we (white, straight etc. people) have to loose if a LGBT / POC characters story arc doesn't live up to our expectations or standards? (And let's not lie to ourselves "I just hate poor story telling / bad character arcs" - As a group, we've been more than happy to play borderline genocidal war criminals with no character arc or motivation to speak of for various reasons.) It doesn't affect us unless we choose to be affected by it - but the minorities are, more often than not, affected by exclusion and/or poor and demeaning representation - and, if we choose to engage with the topic, we should really be asking their opinion first (which doesn't seem to be happening all that much). And if we mess up, we acknowledge it, ask how we can do better, and then try to do just that in the future.

 

Why is it so frightening to some people to include these people and talk about these issues? We have quite literally absolutely nothing to loose by allowing more people and stories into our games and our culture - the exact opposite.

[Prince Enigmatic]

Why would / should minority NPCs "justify" their existence in the game world when majority characters don't?
 
We spend literally tens and hundreds of hours meeting, discussing with, defending and fighting with white male NPCs in games with no backstory or story arch to speak of. Why must their existence magically gain "justification" the moment they are female / POC / LGBT? Do we expect a detailed explanation to "why is there a straight person in this game?" every time an NPC mentions an opposite sex significant other? Do we expect detailed in-world explanation to "why are there white / Caucasian people in this world?" when we run into (yet another) white / Caucasian NPC? If not - why should we expect that from minority characters? Isn't the implied explanation "LGBT / POC exist" enough?
 
I just really, really don't get it. What is there to be judgmental of? What do we (white, straight etc. people) have to loose if a LGBT / POC characters story arc doesn't live up to our expectations or standards? (And let's not lie to ourselves "I just hate poor story telling / bad character arcs" - As a group, we've been more than happy to play borderline genocidal war criminals with no character arc or motivation to speak of for various reasons.) It doesn't affect us unless we choose to be affected by it - but the minorities are, more often than not, affected by exclusion and/or poor and demeaning representation - and, if we choose to engage with the topic, we should really be asking their opinion first (which doesn't seem to be happening all that much). And if we mess up, we acknowledge it, ask how we can do better, and then try to do just that in the future.
 
Why is it so frightening to some people to include these people and talk about these issues? We have quite literally absolutely nothing to loose by allowing more people and stories into our games and our culture - the exact opposite.

I wish this thread would end here with what you've said, sort of summed up there, but i fear the debate about what it means to be a trans, in or out of ME:A, and trans as a romance will go on...

[9TailsFox]

You can literally get Krem killed for a unreliable at best alliance with the Qunari, in the game. Doesn't seem very wrapped up in cotton wool to me.

Did you want the option to teabag his corpse afterwards?

I am sorry I just have to.

Spoiler

[Battlebloodmage]

I am sorry I just have to.

Spoiler

What a dick...

 

 

and balls, too. 

[9TailsFox]

Why would / should minority NPCs "justify" their existence in the game world when majority characters don't?

 

We spend literally tens and hundreds of hours meeting, discussing with, defending and fighting with white male NPCs in games with no backstory or story arch to speak of. Why must their existence magically gain "justification" the moment they are female / POC / LGBT? Do we expect a detailed explanation to "why is there a straight person in this game?" every time an NPC mentions an opposite sex significant other? Do we expect detailed in-world explanation to "why are there white / Caucasian people in this world?" when we run into (yet another) white / Caucasian NPC? If not - why should we expect that from minority characters? Isn't the implied explanation "LGBT / POC exist" enough?

 

I just really, really don't get it. What is there to be judgmental of? What do we (white, straight etc. people) have to loose if a LGBT / POC characters story arc doesn't live up to our expectations or standards? (And let's not lie to ourselves "I just hate poor story telling / bad character arcs" - As a group, we've been more than happy to play borderline genocidal war criminals with no character arc or motivation to speak of for various reasons.) It doesn't affect us unless we choose to be affected by it - but the minorities are, more often than not, affected by exclusion and/or poor and demeaning representation - and, if we choose to engage with the topic, we should really be asking their opinion first (which doesn't seem to be happening all that much). And if we mess up, we acknowledge it, ask how we can do better, and then try to do just that in the future.

 

Why is it so frightening to some people to include these people and talk about these issues? We have quite literally absolutely nothing to loose by allowing more people and stories into our games and our culture - the exact opposite.

1) I dob't tarns meet new person first or second think they say is i am trans.

2) In Baldaru's gate or DnD universe in general having trans make no sense. Why if you want to become opposite sex you can magical items, potions. You not trans anymore man can just become real women and even make baby's. If you don't like you body and have option with now side effect wouldn't you take it isn't what trans people want. It's same as green space magic in mass effect it make no sense. If you want trans person how about someone ask pc to help buy potion to change sex. And have something like help, don't help, give fake potion. Look at DA Krem I don't think it was so bad as some say. And it makes sense why he is trans, blood magic is evil and not many people so powerful like Flemeth, Solas or Cory who can change body, exist in DA.

[9TailsFox]

What a dick...

 

 

and balls, too. 

This is the Dick you want.

[Battlebloodmage]

This is the Dick you want.

Nightwing is famous for his ass, not his front. You could say he's an ass man. 

 

[9TailsFox]

Nightwing is famous for his ass, not his front. You could say he's an ass man. 

 

Spoiler

Aneeta wouldn't approve this, we need cape special Wayne industry equipment designed to cover his ass.

[Prince Enigmatic]

Aneeta wouldn't approve this, we need cape special Wayne industry equipment designed to cover his ass.

I'm pretty sure in that video she was criticizing how there wasn't the same focus on male characters asses as with female characters, in regards to Batman Arkham City especially with Catwoman - Batman - Nightwing.

[9TailsFox]

I'm pretty sure in that video she was criticizing how there wasn't the same focus on male characters asses as with female characters, in regards to Batman Arkham City especially with Catwoman - Batman - Nightwing.

Yes you correct. Poor women couldn't see Batmans ass. Why no one showed her you can put on alternative costume without cape.