671 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

No offense but does anyone else think the whole, big fancy expensive CRPG designed to be at the forefront of gaming and all that and the forums looking like a bunch of unruly children is a bit, I don't know, disappointing? 

[Seraphim24]

I'm pretty sure in that video she was criticizing how there wasn't the same focus on male characters asses as with female characters, in regards to Batman Arkham City especially with Catwoman - Batman - Nightwing.

 

Well in fact, she has gone so far on numerous occasions (paraphrasing to the best of my ability here that) noted that the reverse damselling etc of a male character or representing male characters in sexualized positions etc would not actually be problematic since it doesn't reinforce any pre-existing norms concerning males in media or something along those lines. 

 

I took this to imply that she desires it personally on some level and is phrasing it in this complex sort of way but tis nothing but speculation on my part. 

 

Because she always goes "simply reversing" is not the solution, so it sounds like the point is some degree of objectification is ok and perhaps even desirable, but lets not simply reverse. I think her idea is maybe lets reverse, but... make it not quite the same either, change it, or something. 

[Asdrubael Vect]

You can literally get Krem killed for a unreliable at best alliance with the Qunari, in the game. Doesn't seem very wrapped up in cotton wool to me.

Did you want the option to teabag his corpse afterwards?

It would be better if Chargers or Krem-Charges second commander future was not connected with Bull and his staying with hero, especially why the hell he can romanced someone and have high relationship and then betray for nothing

 

this "alliance with Qunari" was not make much sense for mage(with his powers Inquisitor is dangerous mage no matter what and we know what qunari do to such, we have info) Inquisitor as for any Inquisitor for roleplay purpose cos we cant support and agree with Qun, especially with our alliances with Tevinter/Nevarra and having Ferelden with Orlais and Free Marshes city's and mages or Chantry/templars....not makes any sense and should damage relationships with all others for nothing

 

i am sure that almost noone  was pick that option and have it in canon, only those who are huge fans of qunari and does not thing about what would be next

 

And yeah it was(and it was tooo obvious as with Orlais backstabbing) not give us something and not makes sense, and Inquistion was punished for such in Treespasser DLC, even show hero is not smart person(especially in epilogue for those who romanced iron bull) for doing such thing

 

the whole point was literally to do thing what not makes sense(just for the player fan love to Qunari without any reason for his hero himself) or not do such and without our choice save Krem so krem with Bull would be in epilogue and as cameo in next game....why we cant send Qunari alliance to hell and destroy their drednaught

 

It would be best if chargers-Krem future was connected in the same way as Satterlend Rose mercenaries who can die on mission. this would be fair

 

and such things what was with "Krem saving" would be in next DA game and can be in Me Andromeda

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Well in fact, she has gone so far on numerous occasions (paraphrasing to the best of my ability here that) noted that the reverse damselling etc of a male character or representing male characters in sexualized positions etc would not actually be problematic since it doesn't reinforce any pre-existing norms concerning males in media or something along those lines. 

 

I took this to imply that she desires it personally on some level and is phrasing it in this complex sort of way but tis nothing but speculation on my part. 

 

Nah, it's pretty commonly accepted in academia that sexism, racism etc. don't work in a vacuum but work on axes of power as well. It's why inversion is a source of humour/art.

 

For example, gay people saying 'oh being straight is a disease' is different to all but the simplest person than a straight person saying 'being gay is a disease' because there's a massive history of gay people trying to be forcibly 'cured' and nothing of the sort for straight people.

[Seraphim24]

Nah, it's pretty commonly accepted in academia that sexism, racism etc. don't work in a vacuum but work on axes of power as well. It's why inversion is a source of humour/art.

 

For example, gay people saying 'oh being straight is a disease' is different to all but the simplest person than a straight person saying 'being gay is a disease' because there's a massive history of gay people trying to be forcibly 'cured' and nothing of the sort for straight people.

 

I don't understand how your comment relates to mine. 

[9TailsFox]

Well in fact, she has gone so far on numerous occasions (paraphrasing to the best of my ability here that) noted that the reverse damselling etc of a male character or representing male characters in sexualized positions etc would not actually be problematic since it doesn't reinforce any pre-existing norms concerning males in media or something along those lines. 

 

I took this to imply that she desires it personally on some level and is phrasing it in this complex sort of way but tis nothing but speculation on my part. 

Everyone knows male can't be sexualised. Oh and fun fact Batman was drugged and raped by Talia al ghul (joker tormenting bat girl CHANGE THE COVER!, Batman raped meh no one cares) and have son Damian Wayne and didn't even told for later than he was like 10 years or something, Damian become Robin.

[Seraphim24]

Everyone knows male can't be sexualised. Oh and fun fact Batman was drugged and raped by Talia al ghul (joker tormenting bat girl CHANGE THE COVER!, Batman raped meh no one cares) and have son Damian Wayne and didn't even told for later than he was like 10 years or something, Damian become Robin.

 

Well as I said, she also states "Simply reversing" is not the solution. 

 

Like I said, I'm guessing she would not object to some form of male objectification/slight damselling sort of thing but would object to a strict repeat of the more hardcore (I guess that's the word) forms of the dynamic, such as "Women in the refrigerator," or stuff you see in like the Darkness 2 or something like that-

 

Wait this doesn't have anything to do with Transgenderism. 

 

Well I didn't start this, I blame the other people *Hops into buggy and zooms away*

[Heimdall]

Nah, it's pretty commonly accepted in academia that sexism, racism etc. don't work in a vacuum but work on axes of power as well. It's why inversion is a source of humour/art.

For example, gay people saying 'oh being straight is a disease' is different to all but the simplest person than a straight person saying 'being gay is a disease' because there's a massive history of gay people trying to be forcibly 'cured' and nothing of the sort for straight people.

Different, but certainly no more acceptable. Too often I've seen this line of thinking used to promote double standards of treatment.

[9TailsFox]

Well as I said, she also states "Simply reversing" is not the solution. 

 

Like I said, I'm guessing she would not object to some form of male objectification/slight damselling sort of thing but would object to a strict repeat of the more hardcore (I guess that's the word) forms of the dynamic, such as "Women in the refrigerator," or stuff you see in like the Darkness 2 or something like that-

 

Wait this doesn't have anything to do with Transgenderism. 

 

Well I didn't start this, I blame the other people *Hops into buggy and zooms away*

Oh this is my problem I think if you want go to extreme you can do it  Do "men in the refrigerator do "men in the woodchoper" I don't care I have no problem with Batman being raped. The problem is who will decide what is extreme and what isn't, what feminist want is games for children without adult themes and attack games for adults. Games Aneeta find good and positive is all games for children PEGI 13 at best . Ok I am sorry for going of topic. Ok how about good transgender character no focus on him being transgender at all. Haku from Naruto.

Spoiler

Very big spoiler.

Spoiler

[Heathen Oxman]

See, it's crap like that that's the problem.  Don't add Trans characters then hold the player's hand like some overgrown child. If my Character hates everyone and treats everyone dismissively then why on earth would s/he suddenly be all sensitive toward a trans person? What makes them so super special awesome and worthy of the highest respect? Doing justice to the character is placing them in a position of being treated the same as any other character in the game.  That's like allowing your kid in the play pen but you're gonna wrap them in bubble wrap to make sure they aren't harmed by the other children. 

 

BW might as well not even bother if they're too scared to do it in any other way than a podium speech and a sob story.

 

To be fair, the "jerk options" for your character in DAI were pretty weak. 

 

You couldn't really play an "evil" character, and, at best, your jerky dialogue options were blunt/aggressive.  You couldn't say anything rude about Krem's TG status, but you couldn't call Viv the n-word, or lecture Cass about how a woman's place is in the home either. 

 

Heck, I wanted to turn the Inquisition into a gloriously dark, power-mongering, despotic war machine that would wipe its bum with the whole of Thedas, but that didn't happen. 

[Hazegurl]

You can literally get Krem killed for a unreliable at best alliance with the Qunari, in the game. Doesn't seem very wrapped up in cotton wool to me.

Did you want the option to teabag his corpse afterwards?

Meh, it's not like you can murder knife him. You pretty much have to resort to sneaky tactics and open your door to a possible powerful invading force. Not worth it just to kill off one minor character.  Not that I would murder knife Krem. He and "Not a Mage" were the only two Chargers members I liked enough not to take the Qunari deal....that is until I realized I could kill Bull later on.  But then again, I can always avoid doing Bull's quest, kill him and keep the Chargers for myself. Yay for loopholes. lol!

 

 

Why would / should minority NPCs "justify" their existence in the game world when majority characters don't?

This is why it makes no sense for trans characters in ME to even have to tell us they are trans. All it will be is the character explaining to the PC why they exist in some way.  Why can't they just be men and women doing their thing on board the ship? Instead of Trans men/women? Why should BW go out of their way to separate them from other men and women? Heaven forbid if they are just mistaken for regular "cis" folks...but oh wait, they've now been erased.

[Hazegurl]

It would be better if Chargers or Krem-Charges second commander future was not connected with Bull and his staying with hero, especially why the hell he can romanced someone and have high relationship and then betray for nothing.

It would have been awesome if I could have had the option of talking to Krem behind the scenes, getting him to help betray Bull and take over the Chargers, then during Bull's quest. Kill the Qunari, take the dreadnoughts for myself, kill Bull, and instate Krem as leader of the Chargers.  My Inquisitor could have gotten his father out of slave debt.
 

 

To be fair, the "jerk options" for your character in DAI were pretty weak. 

 

You couldn't really play an "evil" character, and, at best, your jerky dialogue options were blunt/aggressive.  You couldn't say anything rude about Krem's TG status, but you couldn't call Viv the n-word, or lecture Cass about how a woman's place is in the home either. 

 

Heck, I wanted to turn the Inquisition into a gloriously dark, power-mongering, despotic war machine that would wipe its bum with the whole of Thedas, but that didn't happen.

 

I agree, the jerk options were just plain weak. However I wouldn't want to run around calling Viv racial slurs or Krem gross, or be sexist toward Cass. None of that would fit the environment of the game because racial, LGBT phobias, and sexism (outside the Qun) don't exist.  That's just dragging IRL bs into the game world where it don't belong.

 

But yeah, I would have loved having this ending though.

 

Spoiler

[Sifr]

In this context you would be playing as a pre-made character, like one of the umpteen heroes with amnesia who discovers who he or she is through the course of the game. Except in this case, you'd be discovering the character you are playing as is trans. You are in the driver's seat as you figure out who in your character's social circle can be trusted with this information. When is the right time to bring it up? And so on.

...Actually that'd be an interesting game.

 

For Battlebloodmage and SnakeCode... what DreamerM said here is pretty much what I was trying to get at, that we'd either start the game with the knowledge that a pre-made character was trans going in, or otherwise discover this detail about our main character as the story progresses.

 

Did anyone care in Dreamfall: Chapters when they dropped the reveal that one of your dual-protagonists, Kian Alvane, happened to be gay?

 

It'd be no different here if they happened to reveal that our character was trans, should we as players decide to engage on a romance path with another character. There'd be no other reason to otherwise bring the subject up outside of the romance path, so if you didn't decide to romance anyone, you might finish the game not even aware of this detail.

 

And for those who might feel put out, uncomfortable, penalised or "tricked" in some way because they don't want to play as, nor engage in a relationship as a trans character, I just have to say... so what? Who cares if our badass protagonist happens to be transgender, friggin' deal with it!

 

Reminds me of this comic with Javik;

 

Spoiler

 

See, he casually drops a trans reveal and he's still a total freaking badass, so why can't it be the same for our player character?

[o Ventus]

 

For example, gay people saying 'oh being straight is a disease' is different to all but the simplest person than a straight person saying 'being gay is a disease' because there's a massive history of gay people trying to be forcibly 'cured' and nothing of the sort for straight people.

 

I bet you're one of those "racism is prejudice + power" people.

[IST]

Just asking this infers that it's a taboo or something, aren't we past that by now?

 

I'm fine with anything, as long as the game is amazing and nothing feels 'forced' *glances at Anders moping about*

[Asdrubael Vect]

It would have been awesome if I could have had the option of talking to Krem behind the scenes, getting him to help betray Bull and take over the Chargers, then during Bull's quest. Kill the Qunari, take the dreadnoughts for myself, kill Bull, and instate Krem as leader of the Chargers.  My Inquisitor could have gotten his father out of slave debt.
 

I agree, the jerk options were just plain weak. However I wouldn't want to run around calling Viv racial slurs or Krem gross, or be sexist toward Cass. None of that would fit the environment of the game because racial, LGBT phobias, and sexism (outside the Qun) don't exist.  That's just dragging IRL bs into the game world where it don't belong.

 

But yeah, I would have loved having this ending though.

 

Spoiler

1)Not see that coming cos of Krem story, so it maybe was possible with other charges who have all sense to hate Qun but sure this thing will not work with Krem, and Krem sure does not care about Tevinter(where she would be executed there for lie, treason and killing tevinter soldiers with bull incident) and her parents at all, so Bull is only person for who Krem care

 

Still having the option to execute Bull spy, turn many charges against him and kill qunari and possibly take dreadnout was good to be in game, not really understand why we cant kill Bull(with chargers or turn them against qun and conscript) and start to look for spy in Inquisition after he was said about qunari spy

 

2)not really...Tevinter, Dwarves, City and Dalish Elves.....and others still have some racism/nationalism and tradition vievs about relationship and family, even Orlais Chantry does never be so openminded and they have scandals with Megren and Celine have scandals with her relationship with Brialla so she was need to show force

 

and Vivienne was officially from Rivain so problems with her origin was solved, but i can understand problems with Fereldens like Ser Barris(and he was from noble dynasty what was live in ferelden for centuries), Master Denet and Orlais Chantry Mother Giselle, if they was called rivainians and have at least some logic explanation there would be no questions and problems

 

3)Or ending where we ban Orlais Chantry, execute rebel Chantry priests with templars and not have any Divine elections...and not have any Chantry-Divine forces, or ban of Inquisition in Tresspacer....and this thing was good for Orlais Throne Solution to have option to kill both Gaspar with Celine and Florianne

 

this was the problems with representations and equal relationships

[Draining Dragon]

So, it seems that most of us can agree that transgender (and LGBT characters in general) should be included, but they should be treated like every other character.

 

From my perspective, that means:

 

1. You should be able to treat them the same way you would any other character, whether good or bad. If it's a setting where bigotry on the basis of such characteristics doesn't exist, then I'm fine with not having the option to be homophobic or transphobic, but I should be able to be rude in a more generalized way (telling them to shut up, etc).

 

2. The characters should not have to be justified any more than any non-LGBT character. On the flip side, they also shouldn't be justified noticeably less than other characters. In other words, the character being LGBT is not an excuse for bad writing.

 

There are two types of portrayals of minorities in the media that result in drama. One is when the characters are stereotyped in an offensive way, and the other is when the characters are placed on a pedestal. The key to good writing is to avoid either extreme.

[SofaJockey]

So, it seems that most of us can agree that transgender (and LGBT characters in general) should be included, but they should be treated like every other character.

 

That rather sensible comments like this and others have not deterred 23 pages of debate is so very BSN...

[General TSAR]

Why would / should minority NPCs "justify" their existence in the game world when majority characters don't?

 

We spend literally tens and hundreds of hours meeting, discussing with, defending and fighting with white male NPCs in games with no backstory or story arch to speak of. Why must their existence magically gain "justification" the moment they are female / POC / LGBT? Do we expect a detailed explanation to "why is there a straight person in this game?" every time an NPC mentions an opposite sex significant other? Do we expect detailed in-world explanation to "why are there white / Caucasian people in this world?" when we run into (yet another) white / Caucasian NPC? If not - why should we expect that from minority characters? Isn't the implied explanation "LGBT / POC exist" enough?

 

I just really, really don't get it. What is there to be judgmental of? What do we (white, straight etc. people) have to loose if a LGBT / POC characters story arc doesn't live up to our expectations or standards? (And let's not lie to ourselves "I just hate poor story telling / bad character arcs" - As a group, we've been more than happy to play borderline genocidal war criminals with no character arc or motivation to speak of for various reasons.) It doesn't affect us unless we choose to be affected by it - but the minorities are, more often than not, affected by exclusion and/or poor and demeaning representation - and, if we choose to engage with the topic, we should really be asking their opinion first (which doesn't seem to be happening all that much). And if we mess up, we acknowledge it, ask how we can do better, and then try to do just that in the future.

 

Why is it so frightening to some people to include these people and talk about these issues? We have quite literally absolutely nothing to loose by allowing more people and stories into our games and our culture - the exact opposite.

Maker, I've never seen so much self-flagellation outside the dark ages. Also what's this "we" crap? Don't speak on behalf of anyone and don't assume the video game industry is some evil cabal trying to keep minorities out. Also and I know this is difficult, there's a vast difference between putting in a well written character who happens to be gay/trans/w/e and knowingly putting in a token character and then masturbating to how progressive it is while shutting down legitimate criticism.

 

More legitimate arguments and less bending at the waist next time.

[AlanC9]

I've never heard that"bending at the waist" metaphor. Is that a new thing?

[In Exile]

That's a lovely strawman you have, but Hazegurl never said you should be allowed to attack them because they are trans, but despite them being trans. You can insult people without bringing up race or gender. The argument is that if you're playing as a dick in game, you should be able to be a dick to everyone. If you're going around insulting everyone and then you reach a trans character and your options are three variations of "nice to meet you" then it's not only jarring, but saying a certain group of people are off limits is highlighting that they are different, a special case. Trans characters don't need to be wrapped up in cotton wool.

 

It's not a strawman - it's the subject of the conversation. As much as you can be a dick in Bioware games - which is not exactly a universal option - there's no real restriction. That's literally what Hazegurl said, because that's exactly the subject of the conversation, because that's what Patrick Weekes said.

 

For example, you can punch Dorian in the face in DA:I. You just cannot utter a homophobic  slur. It's the same situation here. If the argument is that DA:I doesn't let you be rude to Krem, well, you can't really be rude to Mother Giselle either, but that doesn't mean "religious people are on some magical pedestal". 

[General TSAR]

I've never heard that"bending at the waist" metaphor. Is that a new thing?

Nope.

[AlanC9]

this "alliance with Qunari" was not make much sense for mage(with his powers Inquisitor is dangerous mage no matter what and we know what qunari do to such, we have info) Inquisitor as for any Inquisitor for roleplay purpose cos we cant support and agree with Qun, especially with our alliances with Tevinter/Nevarra and having Ferelden with Orlais and Free Marshes city's and mages or Chantry/templars....not makes any sense and should damage relationships with all others for nothing[/

Different Inquisitors will see this issue differently. And the qunari allisnce plays out with real in-universe benefits.
 

i am sure that almost noone  was pick that option and have it in canon, only those who are huge fans of qunari and does not thing about what would be next.

Canon? There's no such thing. Just individual Inquisitors making their own choices.

[AlanC9]

Nope.

Where's it from, then, and what's it mean? Even if it's one of those lower-class things, I should still be hearing it on TV even if I don't hear it IRL.

[Asdrubael Vect]

So, it seems that most of us can agree that transgender (and LGBT characters in general) should be included, but they should be treated like every other character.

 

From my perspective, that means:

 

1. You should be able to treat them the same way you would any other character, whether good or bad. If it's a setting where bigotry on the basis of such characteristics doesn't exist, then I'm fine with not having the option to be homophobic or transphobic, but I should be able to be rude in a more generalized way (telling them to shut up, etc).

 

2. The characters should not have to be justified any more than any non-LGBT character. On the flip side, they also shouldn't be justified noticeably less than other characters. In other words, the character being LGBT is not an excuse for bad writing.

 

There are two types of portrayals of minorities in the media that result in drama. One is when the characters are stereotyped in an offensive way, and the other is when the characters are placed on a pedestal. The key to good writing is to avoid either extreme.

they should not be included by the point of just being included to please someone, it must have some sense and be suited as with any character

 

they(as any characters) should not be forced to us, so we can recruit them and we must have option to not to, and as we have option to fight with them and protect them we must have option to fight against and not agree with them.

 

and they should not be like Dorian who does not care(we not have any real effect on this character, only to give him good things) about what we do and recruit him or not, his epilogue about being Magister and having a seat in Senat for nothing, with Maevaris(who was connected with Inquisition no matter what) and becoming "Tevinter opposition" was one of the worst thing ever

 

and now we would have Dorian with Maevaris in DA4 to be forced advisors/companions to out new Hero and Inquisitor

 

They should be more like Zevran who was a good character(he was feel real and have his good and bad sides) without any problems with what bio characters have in later games and we can decide his fate, our desidion was matter