671 réponses à ce sujet

[Asdrubael Vect]

It's not a strawman - it's the subject of the conversation. As much as you can be a dick in Bioware games - which is not exactly a universal option - there's no real restriction. That's literally what Hazegurl said, because that's exactly the subject of the conversation, because that's what Patrick Weekes said.

 

For example, you can punch Dorian in the face in DA:I. You just cannot utter a homophobic  slur. It's the same situation here. If the argument is that DA:I doesn't let you be rude to Krem, well, you can't really be rude to Mother Giselle either, but that doesn't mean "religious people are on some magical pedestal". 

and what aftermath have this punch apostage Tevinter mage Dorian option, or make him anger and to break relations his father

 

NOTHING

 

He is a mary sue character, no matter what his epilogue is good or very good +  "sweet romance" with someone

 

the same we have in ME3

[AlanC9]

they(as any characters) should not be forced to us, so we can recruit them and we must have option to not to, and as we have option to fight with them and protect them we must have option to fight against and not agree with them.

Making characters optional has real costs, since any plot or combat function has to be handled by someone else if the character's gone; picture DAI with both Vivienne and Dorian fired and Solas gone. It's not unreasonable for Bio to decline to pay those costs.
 

and they should not be like Dorian who does not care(we not have any real effect on this character, only to give him good things) about what we do and recruit him or not, his epilogue about being Magister and having a seat in Senat for nothing, with Maevaris(who was connected with Inquisition no matter what) and becoming "Tevinter opposition" was one of the worst thing ever

Worst thing ever? That's a bit hysterical, isn't it? I don't even see the issue.

[General TSAR]

Are you talking about the Inquisitor or Dorian? Because Dorian is not a Mary/Gary Sue.

[Panda]

and what aftermath have this punch apostage Tevinter mage Dorian option, or make him anger and to break relations his father

 

NOTHING

 

He is a mary sue character, no matter what his epilogue is good or very good +  "sweet romance" with someone

 

the same we have in ME3

 

You can hit him and he will leave Inquisition. Even if you can't murder knife him nor ruin his whole life I think that's enough being a dick. It's not like you can murder and ruin lives for other companions either? I don't think that makes him nor anyone Mary Sue.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Making characters optional has real costs, since any plot or combat function has to be handled by someone else if the character's gone; picture DAI with both Vivienne and Dorian fired and Solas gone. It's not unreasonable for Bio to decline to pay those costs.
 

Worst thing ever? That's a bit hysterical, isn't it? I don't even see the issue.

i was said about forced Characters like Solas/Flemeth and Morrigan/Alistair(and even he could be replaced) for storysense and hero life depend point, it not the same

 

Cullen as Lelianna and Josephine was not, as Cortez and Traynor and Liara in ME3, especially on our party in CItadel DLC

 

No it was like resurrection of Lelianna and not having option to punish/execute Cullen(while we could execute OUR OWN SISTER) with Meredith...atleast we have lyrium option in DA3

 

it is worst cos we would have those in DA4 without choice, we in DA3 could support Archont and still Inquisition would have connections with opposiion what was created with Inquisition even that we not have choice of that

[Hazegurl]

It's not a strawman - it's the subject of the conversation. As much as you can be a dick in Bioware games - which is not exactly a universal option - there's no real restriction. That's literally what Hazegurl said, because that's exactly the subject of the conversation, because that's what Patrick Weekes said.

 

For example, you can punch Dorian in the face in DA:I. You just cannot utter a homophobic  slur. It's the same situation here. If the argument is that DA:I doesn't let you be rude to Krem, well, you can't really be rude to Mother Giselle either, but that doesn't mean "religious people are on some magical pedestal". 

Um, that is NOT literally what I said. You better go back and reread what I posted. I had no idea what the context of Weeke's statement was about. Just that the poster I was responding to mentioned that Weekes stated that you could not be mean to Trans characters.  Not that you could not state transphobic slurs to them.  I don't know how many times I have to correct myself before you get it straight.

[Gothfather]

I'm not talking about bringing up a character's transness in a negative light.  I'm talking about being a jerk period. Or just plain dismissive to the character.

 

"I don't care about your issues, just do your damn job." or "Shut up and get to work."

 

Now this sheds more light on the context of Weeke's statement. It'll be stupid to let a character be transphobic in a world where that isn't a thing. 

 

However, I still consider BW's treatment of the Dorian quest and Krem convo (with IB) to be poorly handled and contained some level of kid gloves.  Why I can't I tell Dorian to "suck it up and deal with his daddy issues." then split. Or say "Since you asked me to stay, my opinion as a noble is that you should do your duty to your family, bye."

 

I'm not saying Dorian should listen to me, he could very well tell me to go *u*k myself. But at least it adds some level of replayability to my character.

 

I always felt that they should have frame the narrative of noble homosexuality in thedas from a Spartan perspective. Here you have a society with 'forced' homosexuality upon its citizens but every citizen was expected to get married and have children. And not having children is viewed in a very negative light because it weakened the state. If they framed things in a manner that all that is expected of you is to produce children and who you shag for recreation and enjoyment is your own business and Dorian was just too Roguish to do this the story would be a little better than lets bring in contemporary gay 'curing' into thedas. I mean the idea of a straight roguish noble not settling down to do one's marital duties is rather common in literature and Dorian is a 'rogue' so it would have fit better in my opinion.

 

Still Bioware seems to be damned if they do and damned if they don't with regards to minority representation by elements of both the straight and LGBT communities.

[In Exile]

Um, that is NOT literally what I said. You better go back and reread what I posted. I had no idea what the context of Weeke's statement was about. Just that the poster I was responding to mentioned that Weekes stated that you could not be mean to Trans characters.  Not that you could not state transphobic slurs to them.  I don't know how many times I have to correct myself before you get it straight.

 

That you were completely ignorant about the actual context of the quote from Weekes - and took absolutely no time to verify it before launching into a tirade - isn't a particularly compelling defence -  but I guess I should apologize.

 

I apologize for assuming you were opining about  a topic you had bothered to spend a few minutes googling. It was unfair of me to assume that you knew the actual content of the line that you posted a tirade on. 

 

In the future, I'll assume a great deal more ignorance. 

[Asdrubael Vect]

You can hit him and he will leave Inquisition. Even if you can't murder knife him nor ruin his whole life I think that's enough being a dick. It's not like you can murder and ruin lives for other companions either? I don't think that makes him nor anyone Mary Sue.

So what? we could just not have him in first place and nothing changes

 

that is silly and its like with Cole stupid "forget" thing what actually should not work on Seeker Cassandra and our hero with fade connection, but this work so Cole would not be hunted by Inquisition as dangerous abomination and easily can be in DA4 as cameo

 

miss option what we have with Allistar, and Morrigan, zevran, fenris, and many ME characters

[Hazegurl]

1)Not see that coming cos of Krem story, so it maybe was possible with other charges who have all sense to hate Qun but sure this thing will not work with Krem, and Krem sure does not care about Tevinter(where she would be executed there for lie, treason and killing tevinter soldiers with bull incident) and her parents at all, so Bull is only person for who Krem care

 

 

Krem's story was so short it could have been changed to anything. Also aligning with the Inquisitor is not the same as being an ally of Tevinter.  A chance to free his father from slavery would be a good incentive to turn on Bull. Especially if BW didn't retcon the Qunari just to make Bull likeable. Not to mention that Bull could pretty much let them die, anyway.

 

 

and Vivienne was officially from Rivain so problems with her origin was solved, but i can understand problems with Fereldens like Ser Barris(and he was from noble dynasty what was live in ferelden for centuries), Master Denet and Orlais Chantry Mother Giselle, if they was called rivainians and have at least some logic explanation there would be no questions and problems

 

 

There were never any problems with Viv's or Ser Barris' origins. Not every country has 100% of any one racial group living there.  As long as humans have boats, like money, and love to screw there will always be different groups of people everywhere.

[Panda]

So what? we could just not have him in first place and nothing changes

 

that is silly and its like with Cole stupid "forget" thing what actually should not work on Seeker Cassandra and our hero with fade connection, but this work so Cole would not be hunted by Inquisition as dangerous abomination and easily can be in DA4 as cameo

 

miss option what we have with Allistar, and Morrigan, zevran, fenris

 

We have had options to kill or destroy lives of some companions, but not everyone. Dorian with Solas is only one's you can even punch in whole franchise this far so I think you can be very dickish to those two especially in DAI when compared to others. I don't see why we should have option to kill or destroy Dorian's life particularly.

[In Exile]

Krem's story was so short it could have been changed to anything. Also aligning with the Inquisitor is not the same as being an ally of Tevinter.  A chance to free his father from slavery would be a good incentive to turn on Bull. Especially if BW didn't retcon the Qunari just to make Bull likeable. Not to mention that Bull could pretty much let them die, anyway.

 

Except they didn't make the Qun more likable. They just gave it a likable narrator. The Qun that the IB describes is the most awful of all the three descriptions we've gotten in game. He's just super likable. 

[Hazegurl]

That you were completely ignorant about the actual context of the quote from Weekes - and took absolutely no time to verify it before launching into a tirade - isn't a particularly compelling defence -  but I guess I should apologize.

 

I apologize for assuming you were opining about  a topic you had bothered to spend a few minutes googling. It was unfair of me to assume that you knew the actual content of the line that you posted a tirade on. 

 

In the future, I'll assume a great deal more ignorance. 

Point out, in that post you first responded to, even when I didn't know the full context, where I LITERALLY (according to you) stated that I wanted to make Homophobic or transphobic slurs. Go ahead and do it, and you don't need a google search for that, it's just a few page clicks away.   I responded to another poster during a convo on a forum, I didn't realize I had to fact check every single poster's comment for them.  And even then, My point stood about the kid gloves treatment with not giving us many options to focus on the family duty aspects of Dorian's quest. Something I've mentioned multiple times in the past already. 

 

But whatever. You wanted to be offended so congrats, you've achieved something that no one these days is capable of, being offended on an internet message board.

[In Exile]

Point out, in that post you first responded to, even when I didn't know the full context, where I LITERALLY (according to you) stated that I wanted to make Homophobic or transphobic slurs. Go ahead and do it, and you don't need a google search for that, it's just a few page clicks away.   I responded to another poster during a convo on a forum, I didn't realize I had to fact check every single poster's comment for them.  And even then, My point stood about the kid gloves treatment with not giving us many options to focus on the family duty aspects of Dorian's quest. Something I've mentioned multiple times in the past already. 

 

But whatever. You wanted to be offended so congrats, you've achieved something that no one these days is capable of, being offended on an internet message board.

 

I didn't get offended. Don't be so sensitive. Just because I'm being mean to you doesn't mean I'm offended. It means I'm being mean to you. And probably unfair. Actually, this reminds of a quote from someone:

 

See, it's crap like that that's the problem.  Don't ...hold the player's hand like some overgrown child. If my Character hates everyone and treats everyone dismissively then why on earth would s/he suddenly be all sensitive toward a [another] person? What makes them so super special awesome and worthy of the highest respect? Doing justice to the character is placing them in a position of being treated the same as any other character in the game.  That's like allowing your kid in the play pen but you're gonna wrap them in bubble wrap to make sure they aren't harmed by the other children. 

 

 

If I'm dismissive towards everyone, why should I have treated you with "the highest respect"? Shouldn't I avoid holding your hand "like some overgrown child"? I wouldn't want to you to think you're in the play pen wrapped in bubble wrap, after all. 

[Hazegurl]

 

I didn't get offended. Don't be so sensitive. Just because I'm being mean to you doesn't mean I'm offended. It means I'm being mean to you. And probably unfair. Actually, this reminds of a quote from someone:

 

I accept your concession.

 

Unless you're still looking for those literal homophobic/transphobics slurs....should I keep waiting or do you want to move the goalposts some more?

[Asdrubael Vect]

We have had options to kill or destroy lives of some companions, but not everyone. Dorian with Solas is only one's you can even punch in whole franchise this far so I think you can be very dickish to those two especially in DAI when compared to others. I don't see why we should have option to kill or destroy Dorian's life particularly.

and almost every companions and now advisors what lives cannot be affected(only do good or more good but never bad things) by us and they are not a godlike(Solas/Morrigan) creatures is Dorian, Sera, Josephine, Lelianna, Isabella, Tallis. Traynor, Cortez. and others like them..now we would have Maevaris in DA4(and Charter who would replace Lelianna) and some new ones in ME

 

Cos he is Tevinter mage apostage and even if someone does not want to execute such as other Tevinters, so for mages and tevinter supporters they learn that he have a position against Tevinter, he is potential enemy of Templars and Mages/Tevinter supporters

 

and remember we can have a alliance with Tevinter and Archon in DA3

 

And we could cut his life so he would not become Magister, never have a seat in Senat, not become "opposition" with connection with Inquisition via Maevaris, we would not deal with him anymore if we have a choice and not let him become who he is become, we even could support and not support Calpernia but never have a choice with Dorian

 

 

he was originally not have any value for us, only temporaly and minor in mages quest with time breaking, so there is no point of why he is special while Bull and Blackwall and some characters in game is not

 

if he was stay as he was without becoming a magister who he should not be, and he was not become one without Inquisiton support,  it was not really matter if he was die or not, but death is 90% save from characters appear

 

And now this "untouchable" will become our forced advisor/companion with Maevaris, i will not be surprised than Maevaris or Dorian will be Archon candidates and they as someone said would be "placed on a pedestal" and treated like special one above others

[Draining Dragon]

If I'm dismissive towards everyone, why should I have treated you with "the highest respect"? Shouldn't I avoid holding your hand "like some overgrown child"? I wouldn't want to you to think you're in the play pen wrapped in bubble wrap, after all.

Because civility is the same thing as hand-holding. Topkek.

You must be fun at parties.

[Sifr]

So... wait, people are now complaining Bioware is being intolerant for not making a leading character in a game who can be a racist, bigoted, insensitive, misogynistic and all around homicidal jerk?

 

Spoiler

 

[Lyrandori]

I don't care, to be honest, either way (if they include one such character, or not).

 

As long as the main story arc is good and it doesn't end remotely close to how ME3 did, then I'll be a happy panda.

[Stakrin]

It's not should or shouldn't. I don't think they should be forced to mention every single social issue, or every single group. It would be nice to have character diversity and if a well written character happens to be transgendered, then cool.

I wouldn't romance them in my main play though, because I always play first and most completely by doing what I would actually do, and I am attracted to women on both an emotional and physical level.
But for an RP character, if they worked together. I wouldn't refuse to do it under any circumstance just because they are trans.

[DreamerM]

1) I dob't tarns meet new person first or second think they say is i am trans.

2) In Baldaru's gate or DnD universe in general having trans make no sense. Why if you want to become opposite sex you can magical items, potions. You not trans anymore man can just become real women and even make baby's. If you don't like you body and have option with now side effect wouldn't you take it isn't what trans people want. It's same as green space magic in mass effect it make no sense. If you want trans person how about someone ask pc to help buy potion to change sex. And have something like help, don't help, give fake potion. Look at DA Krem I don't think it was so bad as some say. And it makes sense why he is trans, blood magic is evil and not many people so powerful like Flemeth, Solas or Cory who can change body, exist in DA.

1. You might if you lived in a world where being trans is not supposed to be "a big deal" and also you are asked. It came up casually in conversation because it's supposed to be a casual topic. It's not supposed to be some sort of big dramatic reveal. Trans people the world over wish it didn't have to be this big verbotten taboo, but it is, and this cult of silence around it does not help. This was one fiction writer's attempt to show us what a world where that wasn't the case might be like.

2."having trans make no sense." ... that is a more revealing statement then you intended. Because in the real world, as well as fiction, that exact reason, "it makes no sense," is used against real life trans people who exist, to try and insist that they are just sick, or confused, or anything other then exactly what they claim to be, all because some cis person cannot get their head around the reasoning of how, how can such a thing be real? Because it "make no sense," no, it's got to be the trans person who has it wrong. I'm not crazy. You're crazy. It's everyone else's fault that I'm confused right now. Stop confronting me with things that I don't understand! Aaaaah!

In a sci fi or fictional world where there are much crazier things, the idea that the mere existence of trans people would need some sort of special explanation or justification doesn't make sense to me.

[-leadintea-]

And even then, My point stood about the kid gloves treatment with not giving us many options to focus on the family duty aspects of Dorian's quest.

 

Seriously. His quest was heavily skewed towards his own idealistic position and it was a very black and white story, with his father using blood magic to try to change his very nature and his fiance, apparently, being a ******. The only way you could even make a sensible case against Dorian was by reading about his past in supplementary materials released months after the game's release. Not only that, at the end of his quest, you could praise him for abandoning his country's culture and sticking to his ideals, yet you couldn't chastise him for his actions in the opposite option, instead just calling him "trouble."

 

And now this "untouchable" will become our forced advisor/companion with Maevaris, i will not be surprised than Maevaris or Dorian will be Archon candidates and they as someone said would be "placed on a pedestal" and treated like special one above others

 

Yeah, this is something that's really going to bother me about DA4. Dorian's popularity (and woobie status) plus Bioware's pushing for more positive LGBT characters seems as though Dorian is going to end up being a candidate for being an Archon in Tevinter and I feel like they're going to go full Gary Stu with him and make him the most competent leader and the "best" candidate, who's able to solve all of Tevinter's centuries long issues in just a couple of months just like they did with Leliana in DAI. Personally, I'm really hoping they make Maevaris the Archon candidate or at least make another candidate the "best" option.

[Biotic Apostate]

@Asdrubael Vect

Your argument makes absolutely no sense. You argue that Dorian and Mae have some sort of special status, that they're protected and "forced," yet you yourself list several other characters that are treated the same. Varric, Leliana, Morrigan, Flemeth, Sebastian, Cullen, Liara, and so on. And actually Cortez and Krem can die (like Zervran, Anders, Fenris, Kaidan, Bull), depending on your actions. So it's not like BioWare is somehow protecting LGBT characters against all harm. They, like other characters, can either die or have greater influence over the story. The PC is not a god, who gets to decide everyone's fate.

If your argument is against characters that cannot be killed by the PC in general, then it's not really relevant to this thread, and it's a bit weird that you don't complain more about heterosexual characters that cannot be killed.

Plus I don't see how Mae is forced. She was introduced in the comic series, and her relevance to Tevinter has already been established.

[Draining Dragon]

I am an equal opportunity psychopath.

I want a game that lets me brutally murder everyone, regardless of age, race, creed, color, sex, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, marital status, or socioeconomic status.

[In Exile]

Because civility is the same thing as hand-holding. Topkek.

 

Apparently, yes. Let's read again:

 

See, it's crap like that that's the problem.  Don't ...hold the player's hand like some overgrown child. If my Character hates everyone and treats everyone dismissively then why on earth would s/he suddenly be all sensitive toward a [another] person? What makes them so super special awesome and worthy of the highest respect? Doing justice to the character is placing them in a position of being treated the same as any other character in the game.  That's like allowing your kid in the play pen but you're gonna wrap them in bubble wrap to make sure they aren't harmed by the other children.