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[Draining Dragon]

Apparently, yes. Let's read again:

See, it's crap like that that's the problem. Don't ...hold the player's hand like some overgrown child. If my Character hates everyone and treats everyone dismissively then why on earth would s/he suddenly be all sensitive toward a [another] person? What makes them so super special awesome and worthy of the highest respect? Doing justice to the character is placing them in a position of being treated the same as any other character in the game. That's like allowing your kid in the play pen but you're gonna wrap them in bubble wrap to make sure they aren't harmed by the other children.

Your analogy is flawed.

In the context Hazegurl describes, the two parties are the developer and the player. The developer is not allowing the player to behave in an uncivilized manner towards certain fictional characters. That is hand-holding. If the player was allowed to be uncivil to the fictional characters, that would not mean that they were being uncivil towards the developer. Alternatively, if the player had the option to be uncivil but chose to be civil towards the fictional characters, that would not be hand-holding.

In your example, the two parties are you and Hazegurl. You are behaving in an uncivilized manner towards him. No higher power is physically forcing you to be civil. If they did, that would be hand-holding. If you chose to engage with Hazegurl in a polite manner, you would not be hand-holding.

Now do you understand?

[Enigmatick]

Who's to say there haven't been transgender characters all throughout Mass Effect already?

[Battlebloodmage]

For Battlebloodmage and SnakeCode... what DreamerM said here is pretty much what I was trying to get at, that we'd either start the game with the knowledge that a pre-made character was trans going in, or otherwise discover this detail about our main character as the story progresses.

 

Did anyone care in Dreamfall: Chapters when they dropped the reveal that one of your dual-protagonists, Kian Alvane, happened to be gay?

 

It'd be no different here if they happened to reveal that our character was trans, should we as players decide to engage on a romance path with another character. There'd be no other reason to otherwise bring the subject up outside of the romance path, so if you didn't decide to romance anyone, you might finish the game not even aware of this detail.

 

And for those who might feel put out, uncomfortable, penalised or "tricked" in some way because they don't want to play as, nor engage in a relationship as a trans character, I just have to say... so what? Who cares if our badass protagonist happens to be transgender, friggin' deal with it!

 

Reminds me of this comic with Javik;

 

Spoiler

 

See, he casually drops a trans reveal and he's still a total freaking badass, so why can't it be the same for our player character?

Yet, once again, you're using a character with defined race, sex, gender to justify a custom protagonist with custom race, sex, gender and morality. It's like we can't make Geralt black lesbian because he's a straight white male. If they decide to define it to that extend, then it's a set character, not our character, and my character is not trans, it never will be trans.

[Hazegurl]

I always felt that they should have frame the narrative of noble homosexuality in thedas from a Spartan perspective. Here you have a society with 'forced' homosexuality upon its citizens but every citizen was expected to get married and have children. And not having children is viewed in a very negative light because it weakened the state. If they framed things in a manner that all that is expected of you is to produce children and who you shag for recreation and enjoyment is your own business and Dorian was just too Roguish to do this the story would be a little better than lets bring in contemporary gay 'curing' into thedas. I mean the idea of a straight roguish noble not settling down to do one's marital duties is rather common in literature and Dorian is a 'rogue' so it would have fit better in my opinion.

 

Still Bioware seems to be damned if they do and damned if they don't with regards to minority representation by elements of both the straight and LGBT communities.

I agree, I think the ball was dropped with the blood magic cure/mind control aspects of the story. I think they tried to have the "screw whomever you want just have kids" story with Dorian rejecting that lifestyle, but then they had to add the "gay cure" part with it and I think it just buried it.

 

 

Seriously. His quest was heavily skewed towards his own idealistic position and it was a very black and white story, with his father using blood magic to try to change his very nature and his fiance, apparently, being a ******. The only way you could even make a sensible case against Dorian was by reading about his past in supplementary materials released months after the game's release. Not only that, at the end of his quest, you could praise him for abandoning his country's culture and sticking to his ideals, yet you couldn't chastise him for his actions in the opposite option, instead just calling him "trouble."

I agree, being able to punch Dorian isn't the same as having an option to call him out on his "dangerous" (For his country) idealism, especially from the perspective of a human noble who may have a better idea of the dangerous game Dorian is playing with his life and his family's lives. At times, Dorian came across as living in his own fairy tail world while his father was in the trenches fighting the real fight. Most likely the results of just growing up spoiled.  But you can't call Dorian spoiled, "because his father tried to use blood magic on him and he came from a society that wants to take his soul away" or something like that. Dorian is pretty much expected to be admired for going against his society and doing whatever he wants (while facing no real consequences in the process).  It is something I admire about him personally, but I also feel like the character should have had some consequences to face for his choices. Maybe he will in DA4? Who knows.

 

edit: I can't help but think that if Dorian was a Game of Thrones character he would be dead.

[Bowlcuts]

Been gone from this site for about a week...nope, nothing has changed.

[Asdrubael Vect]

@Asdrubael Vect

Your argument makes absolutely no sense. You argue that Dorian and Mae have some sort of special status, that they're protected and "forced," yet you yourself list several other characters that are treated the same. Varric, Leliana, Morrigan, Flemeth, Sebastian, Cullen, Liara, and so on. And actually Cortez and Krem can die (like Zervran, Anders, Fenris, Kaidan, Bull), depending on your actions. So it's not like BioWare is somehow protecting LGBT characters against all harm. They, like other characters, can either die or have greater influence over the story. The PC is not a god, who gets to decide everyone's fate.

If your argument is against characters that cannot be killed by the PC in general, then it's not really relevant to this thread, and it's a bit weird that you don't complain more about heterosexual characters that cannot be killed.

Plus I don't see how Mae is forced. She was introduced in the comic series, and her relevance to Tevinter has already been established.

First do not mix godlike heroes like Solas Morrifan/Flemeth, and yet we can do a real harm for 2 of them, and Flemeth is gone and Solas who was valuable for us and was the only one who save us from beginning and give us many, is become our new hero main enemy(and i hope we have a option to not stop him) in DA4

 

I was talk and separate heroes what we must have and our life depend on them, and those who have no real value for us at all

 

Varrick is a storyteller hero who was more valuable than hawke and he have everything what we was need, the whole Inquisition connections was his connection, Varrick never have his postion what is neutral and we could not have anything from go against him what is impossible by the sense of Varrick neutrality, but yes Maevaris was connected with him before Inquisition

 

I was talked about Cullen, and yet he can be dead in DA3, without punishment for Kirkwall but still it was OUR doing, not warden or hawke but Inquisitor have effect on his future

 

About Lelianna(and her corpse was dissapear and hope never rise again) i was talked as about her friends as Josephine

 

Sebastian was a ruler of Starhaven no matter what and we can effect on him in DA3, pity that only on wartable send forces against his....and yes i was missed option for Hawke to execute him so he would not send forces to Kirkwall

 

Liara is the same as Cortez and Traynor and i was especially talk about those 3 and Citadel dlc party moments and other moments with them

 

i was said about Krem death what was possible with option what not make sense and with this Bull always betray and die too

 

about Cortez i was talk about other things as with Traynor, and yeah he can die if we not interact with him much

 

And there are almost none heterosexual characters like(who is not a godlike and "our life depend on them" and wasnt romance option)  Dorian, Sera, Josephine, Isabella, Tallis. Liara, Traynor who cant be dead or be killed when we can go against them, or  they become noone cos of our actions like drunk alistair

 

and i was actually remember only 2 non-heterosexual villians and who can die and they are Danarius(and i was like that character and give him fenris) and Duke Prosper?...and thats all

 

 

Mae(as with Lelianna replacement Charter) would be forced as hero companion or advisor without our choice and do we support we Mae or not, and Dorian would be with Mae in their opposition thing

 

and Mae with Dorian are "placed on a pedestal" in comics(and Krem was too) and in game

 

and such thing would be in Me like it was in Me3

[Lord Bolton]

 

edit: I can't help but think that if Dorian was a Game of Thrones character he would be dead.

 

Actually, Dorian's VA, Ramon Tikaram has appeared in GoT and was killed very quickly

[Hazegurl]

Actually, Dorian's VA, Ramon Tikaram has appeared in GoT and was killed very quickly

Wow!! Yeah I forgot about that!   Poor guy can't catch a break on GoT.

[o Ventus]

So, it seems that most of us can agree that transgender (and LGBT characters in general) should be included, but they should be treated like every other character.

 

From my perspective, that means:

 

1. You should be able to treat them the same way you would any other character, whether good or bad. If it's a setting where bigotry on the basis of such characteristics doesn't exist, then I'm fine with not having the option to be homophobic or transphobic, but I should be able to be rude in a more generalized way (telling them to shut up, etc).

 

2. The characters should not have to be justified any more than any non-LGBT character. On the flip side, they also shouldn't be justified noticeably less than other characters. In other words, the character being LGBT is not an excuse for bad writing.

 

There are two types of portrayals of minorities in the media that result in drama. One is when the characters are stereotyped in an offensive way, and the other is when the characters are placed on a pedestal. The key to good writing is to avoid either extreme.

 

But this is, like, super problematic. They killed off some gay characters on The 100 and people flipped their lids over it.

[Amirit]

And if they were romance options would you romance them?

 

Too late to the party but will say it anyway. I think the very question is offensive and should not ever be formulated like that. It has to be ask totally different way - like "If a writer feels a need to make some NPC(s) transgender - should the writer go for it"? See? No more focus on transgender part, no more implied tokenism but it comes from the writing necessities. Otherwise it does sound like a permission to bring some agenda into the game.

[Biotic Apostate]

And there are almost none heterosexual characters like(who is not a godlike and "our life depend on them" and wasnt romance option)  Dorian, Sera, Josephine, Isabella, Tallis. Liara, Traynor who cant be dead or be killed when we can go against them, or  they become noone cos of our actions like drunk alistair

 

and i was actually remember only 2 non-heterosexual villians and who can die and they are Danarius(and i was like that character and give him fenris) and Duke Prosper?...and thats all

...Duke Prosper was not straight? That's news to me. His son, on the other hand, was bi. Also, Celene and Briala can die, depending on where you stand, they can be villains.

 

You are moving goalposts constantly. Not godlike, not romanceable (why would you exclude those), not important. Again, straight companions that cannot be killed: Oghren (who was also resurrected for Awakening), Wynne, Sten, Morrigan, Velanna, Sigrun, Varric, Sebastian, Solas, Cassandra, Vivienne, Cole, and Blackwall. If you think that some should be excluded from this list, because they are LIs, then the same applies to LGBT companions, yes? Then your list of protected LGBT characters shrinks down to Tallis, and maybe Mae in the future, but that's not certain yet.

 

You're obviously bending the rules, so you can be more outraged at Dorian and Mae being important (and we don't even know yet if Mae will be able to die based on our actions), and so that you can ignore Varric, Cassandra, and others. After Hawke makes his cameo, Varric is really not that important to the story, I don't see why Dorian, who will serve as one of the sides of the conflict in Tevinter is less important than Varric, a companion whose relevance in Inquisition is stretched anyway. You probably won't get an option to turn Mae down as an advisor, but neither could you disagree with Cassandra.

 

Both straight and LGBT characters can die or be protected by the story. If Mae and Dorian are on a pedestal, then so are Varric and Cassandra.

 

Edit: Also, we cannot do harm to Flemeth, that's Solas. And if you want to punish Dorian for...what, his family relations(?), then you have to also want to punish Varric for blabbing about the red lyrium to Bianca, which leaked to Corypheus. Varric did more damage to the Inquisition than Dorian.

[AlanC9]

it is worst cos we would have those in DA4 without choice, we in DA3 could support Archont and still Inquisition would have connections with opposiion what was created with Inquisition even that we not have choice of that

This is a little hard to follow; are you saying that it's better to have choices that don't actually change anything than it is to not have choices at all?

[AlanC9]

I agree, I think the ball was dropped with the blood magic cure/mind control aspects of the story. I think they tried to have the "screw whomever you want just have kids" story with Dorian rejecting that lifestyle, but then they had to add the "gay cure" part with it and I think it just buried it.

Is that a problem with the story, or the audience? Though the latter would still be Bio's fault; by now they should know that gamers are prone to gay panic.

[Battlebloodmage]

Is that a problem with the story, or the audience? Though the latter would still be Bio's fault; by now they should know that gamers are prone to gay panic.

With the story, I believe. 

[Undead Han]

25 pages? 

 

I'm pretty sure this is The Antagonist's reaction right about now. 

[Sandal Negindar]

The question of transgender existing or not in games is kind of offensive like "should black people exist in the universe?" HOWEVER... I'm not fond of the idea of traditional/classic/standard/"binary" transgender people into sci-fi and fantasy worlds because those would obviously resort to magic/science to change their body.

Other identities could be explored since there are trans people that do not wish to "transtition" or wish to do so partially... HOWEVER²... most of these worlds deal with werider things so transgenderism would not be such an issue so my final thought is that these worlds already have parallels to transgederism and if they make more sense in a given setting than they should be used instead.

Like, if I was born into any high fantasy setting my priority would be to work/steal/adventure until I bought a potion or magic service/item to have the body I always dreamed of. Perhaps I would be a druid in Golarion and die until I reincarnate as a specific species/gender? Same goes for sci-fi or sci-fantasy, obviously hundreds of years in the future our surgery expertise would be a lot better if not perfect and I would work/steal/adventure until I got the money to become what I intended to be (bodywise) or even resort to alien knowledge, whatever, no need to be trapped in my body.

Now about the "everything in between" people like all the gender spectrum that is not either exclusively female ou exclusively male, including people without gender or with multiple genders... would a society with aliens, faster than light speeds and gigantic monster realy focus on these people? Wouldn't interspecies relationships become "the new ugly thing"? Like "'my son masturbates to Reapers pictures' - tonight on Discovery Health"... I highly doubt transgenders would be that much of an issue

Still they could subvert the expectations and present transgender and gay/lesbian characters in all normality they deserve in such settings, like no issue at all. To be honest I can't even understand gender differences in high fantasy or sci-fantasy settings, seriously, the gender roles would gradually balance themselves out and sexuality wouldn't be defined by gender roles since those wouldn't mean a thing once magic/super-science started to change things. Also would people still be teaching their children to be either men or women? Initially yes, but after people realize those don't mean a thing when you can change gender multiple times across a lifetime (that in a sci-fantasy, in DnDish settings you could change your gender each morning with a spell) would that still be the smart thing to do?

So, being a SJW and all, yes, they should be represented in games (and everywhere else) but being a person who understands why human kind have things like gender in its social-cultural set-up makes me believe transgenderism would not be a huge issue in fantasy world and that if gender even existed in those worlds (or at least existed with the same meaning that it does in our current world)

[Asdrubael Vect]

...Duke Prosper was not straight? That's news to me. His son, on the other hand, was bi. Also, Celene and Briala can die, depending on where you stand, they can be villains.

 

You are moving goalposts constantly. Not godlike, not romanceable (why would you exclude those), not important. Again, straight companions that cannot be killed: Oghren (who was also resurrected for Awakening), Wynne, Sten, Morrigan, Velanna, Sigrun, Varric, Sebastian, Solas, Cassandra, Vivienne, Cole, and Blackwall. If you think that some should be excluded from this list, because they are LIs, then the same applies to LGBT companions, yes? Then your list of protected LGBT characters shrinks down to Tallis, and maybe Mae in the future, but that's not certain yet.

 

You're obviously bending the rules, so you can be more outraged at Dorian and Mae being important (and we don't even know yet if Mae will be able to die based on our actions), and so that you can ignore Varric, Cassandra, and others. After Hawke makes his cameo, Varric is really not that important to the story, I don't see why Dorian, who will serve as one of the sides of the conflict in Tevinter is less important than Varric, a companion whose relevance in Inquisition is stretched anyway. You probably won't get an option to turn Mae down as an advisor, but neither could you disagree with Cassandra.

 

Both straight and LGBT characters can die or be protected by the story. If Mae and Dorian are on a pedestal, then so are Varric and Cassandra.

his act was the same as his son and i was raised a question about him be or not be, if you know other than Danarius so please say who?...i was remember BI Branka

 

despite that i consider Orlais nobles as enemies they are not a villians and legit by their country

 

i was not moving anything it is you who start to mix characters when i was perfectly clear about it and about what group i was talking, those who never have bad endings and those who are not valuable to a world and our hero life does not depend on them, as our hero is above them by his status and powers and those characters the only ones who ignore that

 

Morrigan/Flemeth(god), Solas(god) and Varrick(neutral game narrator), Sebastian(single ruler of the country) does not count and they are was too important for a DA world....and Flemeth was die and now Solas is our main enemy and Morrigan maybe will die with Solas

 

and we can go agains Sebastian and can send forces against him in Kirkwall on wartable

 

Cassandra play her role in the beginning and Vivienne can too if we HIRE HER, yes they cant be killed or die in DA3 cos of Divine thing, this is another thing and connected with matter of our choices what in this moment does not matter, at least they can give option to get rid from Cullen, and those as Cassandra and Vivienne maybe can die in DA4 if they are not a Divines, but i doubt it

 

I was talk about Cole and his forget thing, and Cole still already dead, he is a demon who is not even have a real body, we cant  really kill him as Sloth Deamon or Coryfeus, he is dangerous and i was hope than in DA4 we could end this, and he would be there

 

ahd now you start to lie

 

Wynne(who actually can naturally die after her quest before archdeamon if we do not kill her, and we can do this not less than twice, in circle, in urn of sacred ashes and as i remember if we are blood mages), and she was killed in book so wynne no matter what was die

Ogren(killing him in origin is impossible(even keep remove that option) and was not make any sense cos oghren does not care and represent anything), can die in epilogue

Sten(we can leave him in cage or he will do a fight for leader position and thats all), sure if he was survive you can kill him in DA4 as with previous Arishok

Vellanna, can die in epilogue

Sigrun, can die in epilogue

Blackwall can be executed and he still will die from blight as a grey warden

 

 

the only lgbt companion/advisor/member of our Inquistion who can have a bad ending and die in DAI is Iron Bull in dlc, and if we let Krem die for a Qunari alliance, for almost no reason and something what benefit us or our future and of course our hero as Inquistion reputation was punished for such

 

lelianna was killed in DAO so her possible "death" in DAI was not count

 

it is not only about killing-diying in a bad endings but a bad ending option itself what should be a reason of our actions or our not doing something

 

Dorian, Sera, Josephine, Isabella, Traynor, Liara does not have such,

 

Leliana possible death was almost ignored until DA3

[Hazegurl]

Is that a problem with the story, or the audience? Though the latter would still be Bio's fault; by now they should know that gamers are prone to gay panic.

There are some gay gamers who did not like Dorian or his quest. I heard lesbians complaining about Sera too.  So I would just say it's more of the story's fault.

[fhs33721]

edit: I can't help but think that if Dorian was a Game of Thrones character he would be dead.

Everyone as a game of thrones character would be dead. It's game of thrones. The characters there can be sorted in two categories. The ones that are already dead and the ones that will soon be dead.

[Akrabra]

There are some gay gamers who did not like Dorian or his quest. I heard lesbians complaining about Sera too.  So I would just say it's more of the story's fault.

And some straight male gamers complained about Cassandra and Josephine. People complain, it is not really a new thing.

[Asdrubael Vect]

This is a little hard to follow; are you saying that it's better to have choices that don't actually change anything than it is to not have choices at all?

I was said that our choices must matter and we must have a consequences

 

Maevaris/Dorian thing was ruin it and our choices with Dorina does not have any impact as we can understand they will not have with Maevaris in DA4

 

Our Inquistion could have alliance with Archon but no matter of than Tevinter opposition was created cos of Inquistion connection wtih Maevaris who use it

[Asdrubael Vect]

And some straight male gamers complained about Cassandra and Josephine. People complain, it is not really a new thing.

Some for good and real reason and some just cos of their facial look, thats different

 

but even their facial  look is kinda really loose to other Li in DAI so i can understand those claims, even if this is not a main problem of those Li, Tali was loved without facial look

[Battlebloodmage]

And some straight male gamers complained about Cassandra and Josephine. People complain, it is not really a new thing.

Yup, so it's more about the story than the audience. Dorian's story makes me see him not as a character but as a device for the writer to preach to the audience. The exact same cliche story we see many times already in TV shows and movies.

[Dalinne]

But this is, like, super problematic. They killed off some gay characters on The 100 and people flipped their lids over it.

I think it was more the way that character was killed off rather than the fact that she died. Like a divine punishment right after she had sex with the girl she loved, you know. I very common TV trope "bury our lesbians" (I think it is called)

[Battlebloodmage]

Everyone as a game of thrones character would be dead. It's game of thrones. The characters there can be sorted in two categories. The ones that are already dead and the ones that will soon be dead.

Unless you're Jon Snow, then you get plot armor. He doesn't die even when he's killed.