671 réponses à ce sujet

[Biotic Apostate]

@Asdrubael Vect

Prosper was neither gay nor bi, I don't know where you got that. A speech or behaviour pattern does not determine your sexuality.

 

Again, moving goalposts. Varric counts. If Sebastian is important, because he became ruler, then the same applies to Dorian, who can end up becoming Archon.

 

I forgot about Wynne, but the rest stands. You can kill Oghren, they just resurrect him for Awakening, if it happens, he even comments on it in DAA. Sten was never confirmed dead, if you leave him in the cage. Velanna and Sigrun leave or disappear, never is it said they die. Blackwall cannot be executed by your choice. You just get to pardon him or send him to the grey wardens. Not outright kill him. He is still alive 2 years later, even if he becomes a grey warden.

 

LGBT companions who can die? Anders, Fenris, Merrill, Zevran, Iron Bull, Kaidan, Steve, Kelly, Samara, Morinth, Krem. Leliana was retconned like Oghren and Morrigan (she is not a god, she can only have an old god baby). There's plenty of LGBT characters that do die, so honestly, you don't have a strong argument here.

 

And who is valuable to the world and story is not a fact as you present it, but an opinion. I think Dorian is more important to the story than Sebastian. I believe Mae is more important to the story than Oghren.

 

You want to murder LGBT companions, then just own up to it, stop making up BS. Anyway, I'm not going to continue discussing with you, since you're clearly bending over backwards to try to support your point, which is false. LGBT characters get the same treatment story wise as straight characters do.

[Dalinne]

(...) Varric did more damage to the Inquisition than Dorian.

I agree with you in everything you said except this. THIS is unacceptable, sir.  I throw a glove at you. I'll protect Varric's honor at any cost!!

[Biotic Apostate]

I agree with you in everything you said except this. THIS is unacceptable, sir.  I throw a glove at you. I'll protect Varric's honor at any cost!!

I'm not actually arguing for this point. I'm saying that you can find dirt on any companion, if you really try. I wouldn't punish him, because it's more Bianca's fault (her I would like to slap). If that dude wants to find reasons for killing Dorian, I can show reasons for killing other companions.

[Heathen Oxman]

It would have been awesome if I could have had the option of talking to Krem behind the scenes, getting him to help betray Bull and take over the Chargers, then during Bull's quest. Kill the Qunari, take the dreadnoughts for myself, kill Bull, and instate Krem as leader of the Chargers.  My Inquisitor could have gotten his father out of slave debt.
 

I agree, the jerk options were just plain weak. However I wouldn't want to run around calling Viv racial slurs or Krem gross, or be sexist toward Cass. None of that would fit the environment of the game because racial, LGBT phobias, and sexism (outside the Qun) don't exist.  That's just dragging IRL bs into the game world where it don't belong.

 

But yeah, I would have loved having this ending though.

 

Spoiler

 

I don't necessarily want to use racist/sexist slurs against the characters either, but, whenever someone complains that they can't be a transphobic douch canoe to Krem, they never complain about not being able  to be bigoted to other characters based their race/sex/religion/ect.

 

Apparently, having the option to be transphobic/homophobic is REALLY importartant to "gameplay" and "immersion," but other forms of bigotry aren't. 

[fhs33721]

Unless you're Jon Snow, then you get plot armor. He doesn't die even when he's killed. 

That just means he moved from the already dead category back to the will soon be dead category.

[AlanC9]

I was said that our choices must matter and we must have a consequences

Maevaris/Dorian thing was ruin it and our choices with Dorina does not have any impact as we can understand they will not have with Maevaris in DA4

Our Inquistion could have alliance with Archon but no matter of than Tevinter opposition was created cos of Inquistion connection wtih Maevaris who use it

This would be a huge resource sink. Are you singling out Maevaris for special treatment, or are you saying that Bio must do this for every plot element carrying over into DA4?

It's beginning to sound like you're just flailing around looking for any rationale at all that will let you say that these particular characters were badly handled.

[Battlebloodmage]

That just means he moved from the already dead category back to the will soon be dead category.

I doubt they pull off another move like that. Shows like Walking Dead and Game of Thrones never kill their most popular characters. Maybe when Daryl or Jon Snow die, I'd be impressed.

[Battlebloodmage]

I don't necessarily want to use racist/sexist slurs against the characters either, but, whenever someone complains that they can't be a transphobic douch canoe to Krem, they never complain about not being able  to be bigoted to other characters based their race/sex/religion/ect.

 

Apparently, having the option to be transphobic/homophobic is REALLY importartant to "gameplay" and "immersion," but other forms of bigotry aren't. 

I only need an option to tell them to scram it, like telling them I don't care to hear about their story or something. In Fallout 4, whenever I hear someone's soap story, I can just tell them to shut up. If those want to listen to it, ok sure, for those who don't, they should be able to as well. Same as with Dorian. No need for transphobic or homophobic comments.

[Asdrubael Vect]

 

@Asdrubael Vect

Prosper was neither gay nor bi, I don't know where you got that. A speech or behaviour pattern does not determine your sexuality.

 

Again, moving goalposts. Varric counts. If Sebastian is important, because he become ruler, then the same applies to Dorian, who can end up becoming Archon.

 

I forgot about Wynne, but the rest stands. You can kill Oghren, they just resurrect him for Awakening, if it happens, he even comments on it in DAA. Sten was never confirmed dead, if you leave him in the cage. Velanna and Sigrun leave or disappear, never is it said they die. Blackwall cannot be executed by your choice. You just get to pardon him or send him to the grey wardens. Not outright kill him. He is still alive 2 years later, even if he becomes a grey warden.

 

LGBT companions who can die? Anders, Fenris, Merrill, Zevran, Iron Bull, Kaidan, Steve, Kelly, Samara, Morinth, Krem. Leliana was retconned like Oghren and Morrigan (she is not a god, she can only have an old god baby). There's plenty of LGBT characters that do die, so honestly, you don't have a strong argument here.

 

And who is valuable to the world and story is not a fact as you present it, but an opinion. I think Dorian is more important to the story than Sebastian. I believe Mae is more important to the story than Oghren.

 

You want to murder LGBT companions, then just own up to it, stop making up BS. Anyway, I'm not going to continue discussing with you, since you're clearly bending over backwards to try to support your point, which is false. LGBT characters get the same treatment story wise as straight characters do.

 

Stop that

 

1)it was about BAD consequences, yes death and especially if we have option to do such is good as options but its all about choices and consequences, not just kill for kill, those characters about what i was talk does not have anything bad

 

2)i was perfectly clear about ME3 and DAI characters and their trope of "untouchables" what would continue in DA4 and MEA

 

from all games before, only Lelianna was in DA2 ressurected until DA3 and Isabella with Tallis was survive no matter what in DA2, and Cullen cant die until DA3

 

Sebastian(and he was from dlc) was ruler of a kingdom hawke do not decide anything about him and sebastian life really was not depend on Hawke who was less noble than he was, if we was a Inquisitor we maybe could do something with Sebastian himself. even that we really can fight againt him in DA3

 

before ME3 and DAI we have some choices and they was matter that what many want back

[Biotic Apostate]

2)i was perfectly clear about ME3 and DAI characters and their trope of "untouchables" what would continue in DA4 and MEA

Yep, those untouchable LGBT ME3 and DAI characters. Except Kaidan, Iron Bull, Krem, and Cortez. Yep, so untouchable. Maybe you should stop.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Yep, those untouchable LGBT ME3 and DAI characters. Except Kaidan, Iron Bull, Krem, and Cortez. Yep, so untouchable. Maybe you should stop.

 

facepalm

 

Kaidan(who was retconed from straight romance) could be dead in ME1 if your forget

 

Krem and Bull death are connected and Krem is not a advisor or companion of us, not even a member of Inquisition or have any value for now atleast.....death of Krem with Charges for the sake of Qunari alliance what is not make any sense and punish us in DLC does not count as real option, and yes Bull is the only one from DAI who die in DLC

 

about Cortez death i was said, and about him and Traynor and Liara i was said about CItadel DLC moments, actually as i can understand after Citadel Dlc and Leviathan he cant de cos we would interact with him

[Panda]

So... wait, people are now complaining Bioware is being intolerant for not making a leading character in a game who can be a racist, bigoted, insensitive, misogynistic and all around homicidal jerk?

 

Spoiler

 

 

To be fair.. it's quite fun to play as homicidal jerk.

 

"You are working too hard"

 

[Asdrubael Vect]

This would be a huge resource sink. Are you singling out Maevaris for special treatment, or are you saying that Bio must do this for every plot element carrying over into DA4?

Bioware makes Maevaris special and Mae would be "placed on a pedestal" as Dorian and others like them

 

I hope they will not force those characters to our new hero, that they give us choice to hire and support or NOT to hire them and fight against them if we want, if those cant die then they atleast must have some real bad consequences

 

And yeah this would be "funny" to have 2 candidates to Archon who would be Mae or Dorian

 

 

This is clear?

 

And the same thing would be good for ME

[DreamerM]

I have never understood this. Bioware puts so much pride and effort into the depth and emotion they can get out of their characters. They made their name on this.

....And so many hardcore Bioware fans demand the right to just ignore all of that and brutalize everything and everyone in front of them because "that's what my sociopathic character would do."

I've never understood this.

[Biotic Apostate]

facepalm

 

Kaidan(who was retconed from straight romance) could be dead in ME1 if your forget

 

Krem and Bull death are connected and Krem is not a advisor or companion of us, not even a member of Inquisition or have any value for now atleast.....death of Krem with Charges for the sake of Qunari alliance what is not make any sense and punish us in DLC does not count as real option, and yes Bull is the only one from DAI who die in DLC

 

about Cortez death i was said, and about him and Traynor and Liara i was said about CItadel DLC moments, actually as i can understand after Citadel Dlc and Leviathan he cant de cos we would interact with him

And? There was no gay romance with him in 1, but he's bi and you still can kill him in 3. And what's the difference, if Krem and Bull's deaths are connected. They can still die. You have the option. So what you actually want is to kill Krem and Dorian, and not suffer any consequences. Tough luck, guy.

 

You also never said what you mean about those "Citadel DLC" moments. All of your companions take part in that, not just those three.

 

Again, you're flailing hard.

[daveliam]

facepalm

 

Kaidan(who was retconed from straight romance) could be dead in ME1 if your forget

 

Krem and Bull death are connected and Krem is not a advisor or companion of us, not even a member of Inquisition or have any value for now atleast.....death of Krem with Charges for the sake of Qunari alliance what is not make any sense and punish us in DLC does not count as real option, and yes Bull is the only one from DAI who die in DLC

 

about Cortez death i was said, and about him and Traynor and Liara i was said about CItadel DLC moments, actually as i can understand after Citadel Dlc and Leviathan he cant de cos we would interact with him

 

Please, if anyone should be facepalming, it should be us for having to read the ways that you are trying to justify your "explanation" with a dozen qualifiers and, even then, it still doesn't work.

 

Look, here's the thing.  You've been on BSN for years advocating for less LGBT content and the ability to turn away and/or kill LGBT characters.  Fact.  We all know this.  So just own it and stop trying to make it about anything other than your own dislike for LGBT characters.

 

The examples that you are giving are wrong.  Painfully wrong.  There are plenty of major LGBT characters that can be killed in ME3 and DA:I.  And, even if you try to narrow it down to just the "advisors and companions", there are still plenty of them.  Again, Bull, Kaidan, Steve, Kelly, Morinth, and Samara can all be killed in the games you mentioned.  Liara, Traynor, Dorian, Josephine, Sera, and Leliana can't.  That's 6 out of 12 that can be killed.  If you expand one circle out and include major characters that aren't companions or advisors, then there's also Celene who can be killed by your actions as well.  There isn't any kind of "special treatment" happening with LGBT character in these games. 

 

So, please, just give up on this line of reasoning.

[slimgrin]

This topic. Honesty. How complicated does it need to be...

 

[Hazegurl]

I don't necessarily want to use racist/sexist slurs against the characters either, but, whenever someone complains that they can't be a transphobic douch canoe to Krem, they never complain about not being able  to be bigoted to other characters based their race/sex/religion/ect.

 

Apparently, having the option to be transphobic/homophobic is REALLY importartant to "gameplay" and "immersion," but other forms of bigotry aren't. 

I agree, I think the only NPCs where it makes sense to use racial slurs with is elves and humans because "Knife ear" and "Shemlen" are pretty established as racial slurs within Thedas.

 

But honestly, I think the best racial interaction I've ever had was in DAO between my Cousland and Sarel, the Dalish storyteller.  The passive-aggressive sassiness between the two of them was way better than walking around calling NPCs Shem and Knife Ear.

[Asdrubael Vect]

And? There was no gay romance with him in 1, but he's bi and you still can kill him in 3. And what's the difference, if Krem and Bull's deaths are connected. They can still die. You have the option. So what you actually want is to kill Krem and Dorian, and not suffer any consequences. Tough luck, guy.

 

You also never said what you mean about those "Citadel DLC" moments. All of your companions take part in that, not just those three.

 

Again, you're flailing hard.

we could kill him in 1 game and never see again as with ashley, and in ME3 we does not see them 90% of the game, stop use them they not represent anything and not mean anything, Kaiden even was the most killable companion in ME

 

I thing you should thinking about retconnning his orientation more, noone was care about Kaiden and i am not think this would be possible to not make him non-killable cos he is replacement for ashley, and if ashley have 2 option to die so Kaiden should have too, if he was not this would be +1 more

 

I thing that it would be better that Charges future does not be to much connected with Bull and be like with Satherland Rose mercenaries who can doom themself on missions, what we have with Qunari mission was silly

 

And we not have any consequences from Dorian death exept he would not be in opposition faction with Mae

 

I was mention them about how Liara, Cortez and Traynor was in our party before we could decide to have our friends, loved ones with who we have years, and i was talk about Traynor moments on previous pages

[Temper_Graniteskul]

facepalm

 

Kaidan(who was retconed from straight romance) could be dead in ME1 if your forget

 

Krem and Bull death are connected and Krem is not a advisor or companion of us, not even a member of Inquisition or have any value for now atleast.....death of Krem with Charges for the sake of Qunari alliance what is not make any sense and punish us in DLC does not count as real option, and yes Bull is the only one from DAI who die in DLC

Krem's death and Bull's aren't connected, though, or at least not the way you seem to think. Bull dies only if he remains loyal to the Qun - if you don't do his personal quest, he'll still die even though Krem and the Chargers are alive. Since Bull is canonically pansexual, I'm not sure why you'd think this works with your theory that LGBT characters are being protected no matter what.

 

And Kaidan failing to express an interest in a male Shepard in ME1 is not the same as being straight; people aren't straight until otherwise labelled, they're simply undefined. Kaidan being bi in ME3 wasn't a retcon. It was clarification.

[Battlebloodmage]

It's weird how he mentioned Isabela, and yet forgetting Anders, Fenris, and Merrill all can be killed in the game. In DAO, both of the gay options Lelianna and Zevran can be killed, DAI, Iron Bull, Krem can be killed, Kaidan and Cortez can be killed. Most of the gay characters can be killed, maybe there are more straight characters can be killed because there are more straight characters in general.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Please, if anyone should be facepalming, it should be us for having to read the ways that you are trying to justify your "explanation" with a dozen qualifiers and, even then, it still doesn't work.

 

Look, here's the thing.  You've been on BSN for years advocating for less LGBT content and the ability to turn away and/or kill LGBT characters.  Fact.  We all know this.  So just own it and stop trying to make it about anything other than your own dislike for LGBT characters.

 

The examples that you are giving are wrong.  Painfully wrong.  There are plenty of major LGBT characters that can be killed in ME3 and DA:I.  And, even if you try to narrow it down to just the "advisors and companions", there are still plenty of them.  Again, Bull, Kaidan, Steve, Kelly, Morinth, and Samara can all be killed in the games you mentioned.  Liara, Traynor, Dorian, Josephine, Sera, and Leliana can't.  That's 6 out of 12 that can be killed.  If you expand one circle out and include major characters that aren't companions or advisors, then there's also Celene who can be killed by your actions as well.  There isn't any kind of "special treatment" happening with LGBT character in these games. 

 

So, please, just give up on this line of reasoning.

 

that is a wery fat lie and i remind you that story can be seen

 

For years i was advocate for races options for players in each game and not giving players another human Shepard/Hawkes 2

 

For more(cause females already have everything exept dwarf male) females non-humans and non-chantry mages companions and romances for males non-humans and mages heroes, and i was for like Solas have restricted romances what makes sense

 

For give us back option to decide who we want to have in our partry/organisation or not and have option to get rid from those or kill, and it was never about orientation but about members of some groups when i personaly was agains to much Andrastians, Orlais, Anrivans, Templars/Seekers and non-mages, Qunari in our "choices" from companions

 

I was for that our choices must have consequences(logic ones) for us and others, especially our companions, DAI does not have such with their mages or templars and others and ME was worst endings ever where only good thing was that Shepard finally gone

 

in Me2 i was not compain about anything exept Liara DLC and Geth became a "good guys" but it was worst in ME3 not in ME2

 

in DA2 Merril romance for hawke exept Aveline, and that it would be better to have anyone exept Isabella with aids. And Tallis, Cullen with Sebastian survival, especially with Tallis and Cullen who can be out enemy by our choices, to fight against Qunari and Templars

 

 

Here I was talking about DAI and ME3 and their characters, not previous games what not have such many problems

 

stop using characters from previous games who can be dead and we can get rid from them atleast and this have consequences

 

some those heroes(Varrick, Morrigan) have a plot save for a real reason what was in the game where they was introduced to be that way and have it, and Dorian, Sera and others does not have any sense to have it

 

and in DAI Iron Bull is the only one who have die and only with option what not makes much sense to pick as what punish us when it was clear that Qunari will go against us

[Asdrubael Vect]

It's weird how he mentioned Isabela, and yet forgetting Anders, Fenris, and Merrill all can be killed in the game. In DAO, both of the gay options Lelianna and Zevran can be killed, DAI, Iron Bull, Krem can be killed, Kaidan and Cortez can be killed. Most of the gay characters can be killed, maybe there are more straight characters can be killed because there are more straight characters in general.

http://forum.bioware...mea/?p=20219128

 

and please start to read until this page

 

and i was talk about ME3 and DAI and what can be in next games and what they should not

[Battlebloodmage]

Varric, Morrigan didn't die, plot armor.

Solas doesn't die, he's god character.

Dorian doesn't die, gay favoritism.

Iron Bull and Krem dies, they intentionally make people want to save them by punishing us

Cassandra, Vivienne doesn't die because they could become the divine

Lelianna can become the divine, she's alive because writers are biased toward LGBT

[Asdrubael Vect]

Varric, Morrigan didn't die, plot armor.

Solas doesn't die, he's god character.

Dorian doesn't die, gay favoritism.

Iron Bull and Krem dies, they intentionally make people want to save them by punishing us

Cassandra, Vivienne doesn't die because they could become the divine

Lelianna can become the divine, she's alive because writers are biased toward LGBT

Varrick neutral in anything very rich with much connections GAME NARRATOR

 

Flemeth/Morrigan and Solas(and Inquisitor life was depend of him) are god charactes, and powerfull mages, they cant die easily even that we can stab morrigan and Flemeth we was warned that we cant stop them for long

 

i was before and would never complain about such heroes survive especially if they was stabbed like Anders or Merril what was show in their story or game that they cant be killed that way

 

Bull have a bad ending option and i was mention him, still not makes sense for those who romance him and have high relationship with him even if chargers die

 

Krem-Charges death option was to connected with Iron Bull himself and it would be better to be like with Satherland Rose mercenaries, and yes players are punished and not have a real choice

 

I complain about Cassandra as much as with Kirkwall hero Cullen "general", Cullen does have a bad end, Cassandra not so, even with Vivienne Divine, mostly i was not like that my Inquisitor was need to be friend with Cass to not rebuild Seekers

 

Lelianna was killed before and ressurect(that was a problem what devs not really solved, and yes devs was biased toward her character) to become forced member to the team of our new hero and yes she can become a Divine and dissapear if she was killed(as i remember she was dissapear even if she was divine), now we have Charter, new elven Lelianna

 

Dorian is noone, some exile from Tevinter, Sera is peasant criminal, Josephine not have anything bad in their epilogues no matter what, Dorian especially