671 réponses à ce sujet

[Sifr]

The Skrull as an alien race would be interesting. They can turn into males and females, and there are 2 instances where a male skrull changes into a girl to be with a lesbian and a female skrull changes into a guy to be with a gay guy.

 

One thing I like that they introduced with the Time Lords in the revived series of Doctor Who is that in addition to the classic personality and appearance changes we already knew about, they are also capable of switching race and gender.

 

While I still on the fence about ever having a female Doctor (though a Ladette version of the Ninth Doctor might be fun), I do like their take on the female incarnation of the Master and Michelle Gomez knock it out of the park... even if character-wise, it's odd for the Master to describe her new form as an "upgrade" and improvement over before, given the rather open misogyny he held in a several previous male incarnations. Then again, maybe the Master didn't know what he was missing had until she tried it.

 

(The correct pronouns to use are deffo confusing when you're talking about multiple incarnations of the same character who share different genders, yet isn't strictly speaking a transgendered character per se, just a character who happens to currently be female?)

[MrBSN2017]

I wouldn't mind playing a transgendered protagonist. It'd be fun.

Two votes yes! Let's do it

[Seboist]

We already had a transgender in the original trilogy with Ashley in ME3, so this is a moot question to ask.

[King Darious]

I don't have problem with as long they don't make a big deal of it.

[Battlebloodmage]

There was a lot of complained about Baldur's Gate expansion with the transgender who only mentioned it passingly. What would be the appropriate way to implement it and not a big deal out of it? 

[Sifr]

I don't know why people seem to think they would make a huge deal out of it... unless we're actively getting into bed with that trans character, should the contents of what they keep in their undergarments really matter or need discussing?

 

With Krem in DA, it made sense to bring the matter up because in a medieval setting, people are probably far less aware of trans individuals or those who pass. In ME where people can take a daily commute with aliens who can be telekinetic, monogendered, have different biochemistry, lay eggs, have four eyes, metal in their bones or are packing a quad... it's far less likely that you'd bat an eye at someone who happened to be transgendered.

 

Frankly, the only people who would probably bring it up in ME are the alien characters, depending on how much they actually know about human beings. Of course, for all we know, they might have similar trans individuals in their own race, so it might not shock them either.

[ZipZap2000]

You're creating a female/male videogame character specifically so a miniscule slice of the fanbase can ask if its not really a female/male videogame character.


Waste of resources.

Space pets.

Weddings/funerals.

Children.

Marriage.

Space Weiner you never actually see anyway so who cares.

Waste of resources.

[King Darious]

I didn't mean it like that. I meant don't let fact that their trans be what defines them.

[Fozee]

Space Weiner you never actually see anyway so who cares.
.

 

You're right, they never once showed it. 

[Killroy]

There was a lot of complained about Baldur's Gate expansion with the transgender who only mentioned it passingly. What would be the appropriate way to implement it and not a big deal out of it?

I wouldn't care if it was a big deal to the character. It could be something along the lines of "This character was from a very conservative/religious human colony and faced ridicule and rejection by family and peers for being a trans woman and this has caused her to be more guarded and take her gender and equality more seriously than the natural-born female characters on your squad."
It's a central part of their character because it informs their outlook and interactions, but it doesn't have to be the defining characteristic or ever come up unless you dive deep into her character through numerous interactions or even romance.

And like others have said, this is the future. There are already some totally passable, tasty trans women out there now that people would never know were born with the wrong junk. In the future it should easy as hell to fully transition. It shouldn't be like "Hey everyone, I'm trans! OK? OK!" Because that defeats the purpose of transitioning(as I understand it).

[Vortex13]

Okay, this is ridiculous. Two specific characters have content that you don't like, so they necessarily took away resources from something you would prefer? If Varric were cut, we could have had more codex entries about Rivain, which I would have loved! Darn Varric for keeping me from my Rivaini codices!

 

Speaking as someone who did not like Dorian's personal quest and did find it to be afterschool special, I don't agree that his presence in DAI was for the sake of inclusion and added nothing to the overall plot. And as much as I prefer CotJ to IHW, Dorian is one of the few companions who actually is vital to the plot during that quest.

 

And if Dorian or Krem were removed from the game, you think there would be enough resources to add anything else of significance in? If Dorian were cut, we would get a different mage companion, as we have three of each class. That companion would require just as many resources as Dorian currently does, just without gay content included. And Krem's content is very minimal. Unless Jennifer Hale were paid big bucks for her voice work, there wouldn't be that many resources freed up from cutting Krem to provide anything else.

 

 

It's Dorian's personal quest that I was referring to not his overall inclusion, sorry for the confusion on that point. It would appear that we both feel the same way about the preachy-ness of said quest though. I will still stand by the position that adding in more of these 'trending issues' be they straight, gay, bi, trans, etc, does result in the reduction of other elements in the setting that were present prior to such social topics becoming the holy grail of video game storytelling however.

 

Just compare ME 1 and DA:O/A to their latest iterations. Contrast the level of content developed for things like the Rachni, Elcor, and Hanar, and things like Sylvans, Awakened, or intelligent demons to the amount of screen time given to showcase such things as daddy issues and bi/gay/lesbian character backgrounds, etc. Indeed, the amount of limelight given to such 'non-human' elements only decreased as the respective series went on, and also consider how characters like Steve and Samantha despite only being added in the last game of the trilogy still had more resources devoted to their development, backstory, and screen time than something like the Elcor or Rachni got in all three games combined. 

 

I dislike any special focus on any current real world hot button issues, that's not why I buy these games. Other people obviously feel differently, but that's differing opinions for you. I do know that I would gladly trade in characters like Steve, Miranda, Kaiden, or James for a serious take on a Hanar companion (like a doctor); I would personally find a third mage character in the form of the Messenger (the 'good' Awakened from DA:A) to be far more interesting than one like Dorian, who's whole selling point (according to the Devs in interviews) was how he was the first gay character in a BioWare title.

[ZipZap2000]

You're right, they never once showed it.

That's a hot dog sausage.


I meant penis.

[Sifr]

I didn't mean it like that. I meant don't let fact that their trans be what defines them.

 

Ah, my bad, thought you meant Bioware making a big deal out of them being trans.

 

Some people seem to think Bioware wanting to including LGBT characters is done to promote some kind of agenda, which is ridiculous with how pro-inclusion they've been for over a decade and a half. It's not like they're jumping on some kind of social justice bandwagon to be popular, they were championing LGBT themes to be included in games back when the wheels were still being carved and fitted.

 

But as you say, characters should be defined by their character, not sexuality or gender identity. Those are secondary characteristics that inform the character, but should not serve as the end-all, be-all when it comes to how they are written.

[Battlebloodmage]

It's Dorian's personal quest that I was referring to not his overall inclusion, sorry for the confusion on that point. It would appear that we both feel the same way about the preachy-ness of said quest though. I will still stand by the position that adding in more of these 'trending issues' be they straight, gay, bi, trans, etc, does result in the reduction of other elements in the setting that were present prior to such social topics becoming the holy grail of video game storytelling however.

 

Just compare ME 1 and DA:O/A to their latest iterations. Contrast the level of content developed for things like the Rachni, Elcor, and Hanar, and things like Sylvans, Awakened, or intelligent demons to the amount of screen time given to showcase such things as daddy issues and bi/gay/lesbian character backgrounds, etc. Indeed, the amount of limelight given to such 'non-human' elements only decreased as the respective series went on, and also consider how characters like Steve and Samantha despite only being added in the last game of the trilogy still had more resources devoted to their development, backstory, and screen time than something like the Elcor or Rachni got in all three games combined. 

 

I dislike any special focus on any current real world hot button issues, that's not why I buy these games. Other people obviously feel differently, but that's differing opinions for you. I do know that I would gladly trade in characters like Steve, Miranda, Kaiden, or James for a serious take on a Hanar companion (like a doctor); I would personally find a third mage character in the form of the Messenger (the 'good' Awakened from DA:A) to be far more interesting than one like Dorian, who's whole selling point (according to the Devs in interviews) was how he was the first gay character in a BioWare title.

I don't see anyone complaining about resources being dedicated to Miranda, Jack, Tali. Is it only an issue when it's not content you use? If they're the problem then romance itself is the issue, not that they have gay romance in it. Can you show me the interviews where the developers intentionally make a big deal out of it instead of the interviewer wanting to get more views for their pages?

[Hazegurl]

It's Dorian's personal quest that I was referring to not his overall inclusion, sorry for the confusion on that point. It would appear that we both feel the same way about the preachy-ness of said quest though. I will still stand by the position that adding in more of these 'trending issues' be they straight, gay, bi, trans, etc, does result in the reduction of other elements in the setting that were present prior to such social topics becoming the holy grail of video game storytelling however.

 

Just compare ME 1 and DA:O/A to their latest iterations. Contrast the level of content developed for things like the Rachni, Elcor, and Hanar, and things like Sylvans, Awakened, or intelligent demons to the amount of screen time given to showcase such things as daddy issues and bi/gay/lesbian character backgrounds, etc. Indeed, the amount of limelight given to such 'non-human' elements only decreased as the respective series went on, and also consider how characters like Steve and Samantha despite only being added in the last game of the trilogy still had more resources devoted to their development, backstory, and screen time than something like the Elcor or Rachni got in all three games combined. 

 

I dislike any special focus on any current real world hot button issues, that's not why I buy these games. Other people obviously feel differently, but that's differing opinions for you. I do know that I would gladly trade in characters like Steve, Miranda, Kaiden, or James for a serious take on a Hanar companion (like a doctor); I would personally find a third mage character in the form of the Messenger (the 'good' Awakened from DA:A) to be far more interesting than one like Dorian, who's whole selling point (according to the Devs in interviews) was how he was the first gay character in a BioWare title.

I agree about Dorian's quest, but I think the only thing his quest reduces is resources that could have been better spent on giving him a much better story line.  And I feel this way about all of the companions. Their stories are usually side stuff that is irrelevant to the main plot. I wouldn't mind it if resources were spent integrating them more into the main story.  I don't get how adding "trending issues" takes anything away from the plot.  In ME1 a female Shep could romance Liara, in DAO, a male can romance Zevran and a female can romance Leliana. So what is so different now?  I think you are confusing the addition of "trending issues" (additions BW always included) to a deterioration in their writing dept.   One thing has nothing at all to do with the other.  The writing has simply gotten bad.  The problem isn't that Dorian is gay, but that the writing for it was just terrible and even screwed around with the settings own lore to make it happen tot he point where it comes across as a bit convoluted.  And Dorian isn't the only companion with some terribad writing.  And ME3 would have been written the same way even without Steve and Traynor and even if they never made Kaidan a gay LI.  As LIs are nothing more than side content.   How many players would have chosen a Hanar doc over Chakwas to justify the resources spent? I do agree that it would have been nice if we could have learned more about the other races, but that's more of a flaw in the game's overall story than LGBT stuff. The narrative never gave us time to actually travel and meet different Elcors et al. Like the rescue mission to save Elcor from their home world was just a "send a probe" to the planet deal.

 

I agree that the writing has gotten bad, but I think you are casting blame on the wrong thing.

[JJDXB]

I haven't a problem with it, so long as they aren't in the game because they are transgender.  I don't mean in the forced diversity kind of way (I'm fine with this), I mean reducing their person to their transgenderism i.e. they only exist to make a point about transgenderism.

[10K]

I don't see anyone complaining about resources being dedicated to Miranda, Jack, Tali. Is it only an issue when it's not content you use? If they're the problem then romance itself is the issue, not that they have gay romance in it. Can you show me the interviews where the developers intentionally make a big deal out of it instead of the interviewer wanting to get more views for their pages?

I think it's more due to the fact Dorian's entire storyline is base on his sexually. I didn't care he was gay. I would have much preferred to know more other things about him and even more on tevinter. But instead all I remember about him is he's the gay guy, why is that even relevant? With miranda and jack yes we see they have issues, but they have a bigger picture. Miranda is trying to save her sister, while jack is trying to find closure with her past. Dorian on the other hand wants to find acceptance because of his sexuality. Why should we as players care? What if a character whom is straight had their entire side quest based on that fact, it'd be stupid. But because he's gay it should be relevant?

[slimgrin]

Only if they are hawt trannies. 

[Kierro Ren]

Yes! And like in ME2, when ED says "Shepard, the wo/men's restroom is on the starboard/portside of the ship." This time however, have the ship's VI/AI say "I'm sorry, you may be a wo/men but there's no restrooms made yet for trans. The wo/men's restroom is on the starboard/portside of the ship."

 

Spoiler

(Satire) Now to kill myself for a bad joke...

[Addictress]

No, because in ME universe they have gene therapy and I assume much more advanced surgery, so if someone decides they want to be another sex then they can. No stigma, no other crap that is floating around today. For all intents and purposes they will become whatever they choose. 

 

The current thing about being "transgender" is because we lack the technology and tools to do it fast and easy. Its a slow, hard process involving loads of hormones and surgery. When we do then there won't be a big fuss about it.

 

PS. I thought we had this thread already and it got killed? 

Right. I hope I'm not butchering this, but from what I understand, a transgender person really wants to be 100% the gender they choose. If they could completely and seamlessly transform into the gender of their choosing, such that other people couldn't tell the difference, that would be ideal for them. So in the future, this is essentially what it would be. You wouldn't really be able to tell.

[Vortex13]

I agree about Dorian's quest, but I think the only thing his quest reduces is resources that could have been better spent on giving him a much better story line.  And I feel this way about all of the companions. Their stories are usually side stuff that is irrelevant to the main plot. I wouldn't mind it if resources were spent integrating them more into the main story.  I don't get how adding "trending issues" takes anything away from the plot.  In ME1 a female Shep could romance Liara, in DAO, a male can romance Zevran and a female can romance Leliana. So what is so different now?  I think you are confusing the addition of "trending issues" (additions BW always included) to a deterioration in their writing dept.   One thing has nothing at all to do with the other.  The writing has simply gotten bad.  The problem isn't that Dorian is gay, but that the writing for it was just terrible and even screwed around with the settings own lore to make it happen tot he point where it comes across as a bit convoluted.  And Dorian isn't the only companion with some terribad writing.  And ME3 would have been written the same way even without Steve and Traynor and even if they never made Kaidan a gay LI.  As LIs are nothing more than side content.   How many players would have chosen a Hanar doc over Chakwas to justify the resources spent? I do agree that it would have been nice if we could have learned more about the other races, but that's more of a flaw in the game's overall story than LGBT stuff. The narrative never gave us time to actually travel and meet different Elcors et al. Like the rescue mission to save Elcor from their home world was just a "send a probe" to the planet deal.

 

I agree that the writing has gotten bad, but I think you are casting blame on the wrong thing.

 

 

 

I will admit that I opine for the days when Chris L'Etoile was still with BioWare, and you are right, the quality of writing has gone down overall (IMO). Still though, there is a direct correlation between the amount of the non-human elements and the amount of the social topics, regardless of the decline in the writing department. I'm not saying that this is something exclusive to the LGTB elements of the games; the straight elements get in the way just as much. 

 

I understand that such real world issues are BioWare's 'thing', but why is it that the ratio of those elements are increasing while the non-human elements are steadily decreasing with each subsequent title? If anything the division resources regarding world building and the topics of the day should remain consistent, but they don't as far as experience has shown us.

 

Take DA:I for instance: we get Dorian's personal quest, Krem's airing of baggage about being trans-gendered, the retconning of the Qunari to accept such things, vilifying Tevinter further by making their ruling class largely homophobic, the card game scene meant to foster camaraderie, Cassandra's questioning of her faith etc. But not one mention of Werewovles or Sylvans (outside of a very stupid Plants vs. Zombies reference in an obscure lore entry), the complete ignoring of any mention of the events during Awakening that could have massive ramifications on the plot, no further exploration of the fear demon that has potentially been feeding off of Thedas for eons, the reduction of Darkspawn and dragons back to mindless, stupid monsters, etc.   

 

There is nothing wrong with the game having a character who: likes boys, or feels bad because their father never loved them as a child, or sees themselves as the opposite gender than the one they were born with, etc. It's just when the narrative actively decides to place those elements as the focus over letting the player go over and converse with the Rachni Queen more in depth, or find out about the Awakened more (for example) that it starts to get obnoxious. We get it, you want to talk about such things BioWare, but does the universe have to shrink to accommodate that stuff? Does the level of diversity that the first title had have to be removed so that we can get more discussions about trending cultural topics?

[frylock23]

@Vortex13

 

That about Dorian's personal quest I can agree with. Given what we know about how Tevinter society is supposed to be structured after Roman society and about attitudes toward homosexuality in Thedas in general, the idea that Dorian was so openly feuding with his family over it seemed a bit absurd. They could have done more interesting things with it.

 

Instead of Dorian feuding with his family, perhaps he had gone through with the marriage and even given his wife a child. However, they "understanding" they had about exactly who and what he was broke down when she fell in love with him and wanted more than he could give her. So, he finally ran. Instead of a feud with his father then, he would be actually running from his wife who loves him hopelessly and desperately, tragically. He'll never give her his heart; she can't accept less. And it explains why the PC can never have a long-term relationship with him.

[Cyonan]

I think it's more due to the fact Dorian's entire storyline is base on his sexually. I didn't care he was gay. I would have much preferred to know more other things about him and even more on tevinter. But instead all I remember about him is he's the gay guy, why is that even relevant? With miranda and jack yes we see they have issues, but they have a bigger picture. Miranda is trying to save her sister, while jack is trying to find closure with her past. Dorian on the other hand wants to find acceptance because of his sexuality. Why should we as players care? What if a character whom is straight had their entire side quest based on that fact, it'd be stupid. But because he's gay it should be relevant?

 

I'm currently playing through Inquisition and most of what Dorian talks about actually is Tevinter. He notes that he left because "his family disagreed with his life choices", but it's not explicitly stated that life choices meant gay until his companion quest. Maybe earlier if you're flirting with him, but I wasn't.

 

Dorian is a guy who hates the corruption and hypocrisy of the Imperium but still wants to make Tevinter great again.

 

but I agree that his companion quest is weak and can be summed up with: daddy issues because of gay. Hell, you could almost make even that an interesting side quest if his dad wasn't so ready to turn around and say "You trust me and made a mistake, I suddenly see now that this whole thing I was willing to lose my son over was wrong of me to do" and have him actually insist that "No, you need to do as we say because that's how things are done in Tevinter. That's how status is kept".

 

The problem ends up being that the whole quest just feels preachy rather than attempting to tackle a real world issue which is what they wanted to do. I mean, we're talking about a medieval fantasy world where even Elves aren't supposed to be all that accepted and now you're telling me the Qunari have a word for transgender after all that crap Sten gives a female Warden about how they're a woman and thus shouldn't be fighting?

[KaiserShep]

Adding my 2 cents about Krem; I found him to be a nice character, before the trans thing even came up. I thought he was male when I first met him, and I believe that's how it should have stayed. I think there shouldn't have been a further elaboration on Krem's background because it just felt forced. Truthfully I didn't care Krem was born female and believe that him telling us about it was unnecessary.

 

 

To be fair, much of Krem's background isn't provided unless you actively seek it out, so basically, the only thing you really have to get right off the bat are dialogue options that broach the topic, so you know Krem is biologically female, but no one will ever talk about it unless the Inquisitor does, so if you wish to have it treated casually like it's no big thing or have it be practically nonexistent, simply not select options in which the Inquisitor is puzzled or surprised about it. I always avoided that question during the Chargers drinking session, because even from the paraphrase it seemed awkward and inappropriate. 

[frylock23]

To be fair, much of Krem's background isn't provided unless you actively seek it out, so basically, the only thing you really have to get right off the bat are dialogue options that broach the topic, so you know Krem is biologically female, but no one will ever talk about it unless the Inquisitor does. I always avoided that question during the Chargers drinking session, because even from the paraphrase it seemed awkward and inappropriate. 

 

Yes, but what was the purpose to Krem other than to provide that? Did Krem really do anything pivotal? Otherwise, he's about as important as Scout Harding or the Stablemaster or any of the other characters like that, but he gets a lot of dialogue time and becomes a major minor character because he's a walking PSA.