671 réponses à ce sujet

[Xisuthros]

I haven't a problem with it, so long as they aren't in the game because they are transgender.  I don't mean in the forced diversity kind of way (I'm fine with this), I mean reducing their person to their transgenderism i.e. they only exist to make a point about transgenderism.

I have to agree with this. Traynor and Cortez in ME3 were effective gay characters because their sexuality is neither unimportant nor their sole defining characteristic. Any hypothetical transgender characters should probably be treated the same way.

 

As for non-humans, there could be a species of Andromedans that engage in sequential hermaphroditism (https://en.wikipedia...hermaphroditism) like clownfish. You take a male alien on board your ship at some point, the lack of females of his species on the ship environment triggers some hormones, and gradually he changes sex. Of course, that's far from the same situation, but it still could make an interesting subplot. Bizarre alien biology, especially when based on weird IRL biology, has always been one of the things that's drawn me to Mass Effect's lore.

[Hazegurl]

I think it's more due to the fact Dorian's entire storyline is base on his sexually. I didn't care he was gay. I would have much preferred to know more other things about him and even more on tevinter. But instead all I remember about him is he's the gay guy, why is that even relevant? With miranda and jack yes we see they have issues, but they have a bigger picture. Miranda is trying to save her sister, while jack is trying to find closure with her past. Dorian on the other hand wants to find acceptance because of his sexuality. Why should we as players care? What if a character whom is straight had their entire side quest based on that fact, it'd be stupid. But because he's gay it should be relevant?

But why should Dorian's content be shifted to something else entirely based on that?  I can understand wanting the resources used to make better content for that character but why erase him in favor of other content? Which seems to be Vortex's point. And whether we care about their content is based solely on opinion.  Some players didn't care at all about Miranda and her sister or Jack and her past.  Just like there are some players who actually adored Dorian's personal quest.  The question of "Why should the player care?" can be asked for every companion in the game.

 

Although I do believe BW should have added an option for the PC to say they just don't give a crap and just walk out and end the quest with no auto cut scene.

 

@Cyonan, I agree completely.  Dorian has other aspects to his character than just being gay but the quest was just terrible.  But in 10K's defense, I will say that if you listen to some of the companion banter, especially between Dorian and Cole, it's all about "Daddy issues cause I'm gay" and  "Gay relationship issues." Then the banter with IB before their relationship happens, it's just "Mage boy, mage boy what color are your underwear, blah blah...." then Dorian and Viv "Fashion, fashion, and wine"  A player would pretty much have to roll with Cass, Solas, or Varric with Dorian to get the more Magey Tevinter sides of him, or the fun playing cards and gambling side. 

 

@Vortex, I may not be the one to argue against your pov, because I'm heavily bias in favor of humanity and human stories. I wouldn't want my gameplay filled with non human stuff. I like SWTOR and KOTOR 1-2, but listening to every other alien ramble on with their alien languages gets on my nerves.  However, I do agree with the retconning of the Qunari, and even removing the oppression of the elves.  Thedas is suddenly a world where everyone gets along and centuries old oppression can be ended in a mere few months. What's even stranger about Tevinter is the fact that it's actually not a homophobic culture according to the WoT book.

[straykat]

I don't care for Dorian's personal issues, but he was a good character for the most part.

 

I don't even say good things about DAI usually either. Take that as you will.

[AlanC9]

Yes, but what was the purpose to Krem other than to provide that? Did Krem really do anything pivotal? Otherwise, he's about as important as Scout Harding or the Stablemaster or any of the other characters like that, but he gets a lot of dialogue time and becomes a major minor character because he's a walking PSA.

That's profoundly silly. Krem exists as part of Iron Bull's background, scenes, and personal quest; those scenes need a character with lines to work.

[straykat]

That's profoundly silly. Krem exists as part of Iron Bull's background, scenes, and personal quest; those scenes need a character with lines to work.

 

As if Iron Bull matters. He sucks even more than Krem.

[10K]

I'm currently playing through Inquisition and most of what Dorian talks about actually is Tevinter. He notes that he left because "his family disagreed with his life choices", but it's not explicitly stated that life choices meant gay until his companion quest. Maybe earlier if you're flirting with him, but I wasn't.
 
Dorian is a guy who hates the corruption and hypocrisy of the Imperium but still wants to make Tevinter great again.
 
but I agree that his companion quest is weak and can be summed up with: daddy issues because of gay. Hell, you could almost make even that an interesting side quest if his dad wasn't so ready to turn around and say "You trust me and made a mistake, I suddenly see now that this whole thing I was willing to lose my son over was wrong of me to do" and have him actually insist that "No, you need to do as we say because that's how things are done in Tevinter. That's how status is kept".
 
The problem ends up being that the whole quest just feels preachy rather than attempting to tackle a real world issue which is what they wanted to do. I mean, we're talking about a medieval fantasy world where even Elves aren't supposed to be all that accepted and now you're telling me the Qunari have a word for transgender after all that crap Sten gives a female Warden about how they're a woman and thus shouldn't be fighting?

But that's what I'm talking about his quest. Instead of having something to do with maybe tevinter, his quest was dealing with his sexuality. Look the other companions, their quest had to do with something that ultimately defined them; Cassandra and the seekers, Solas and his interest with fade spirits, Verric and red lyrium and the deep roads. Dorian's quest is centered around his sexuality. So is that what's suppose to defined him? It was just weird and out of place.

[10K]

But why should Dorian's content be shifted to something else entirely based on that? I can understand wanting the resources used to make better content for that character but why erase him in favor of other content? Which seems to be Vortex's point. And whether we care about their content is based solely on opinion. Some players didn't care at all about Miranda and her sister or Jack and her past. Just like there are some players who actually adored Dorian's personal quest. The question of "Why should the player care?" can be asked for every companion in the game.

Although I do believe BW should have added an option for the PC to say they just don't give a crap and just walk out and end the quest with no auto cut scene.

I never said he should be erased or his content should get shafted. I just think his content should have been better. I would have liked something more on the lines of telling me who Dorian is more, something thattells me more about his character. Relaying who he prefers to bang does not do that. What I learned about Dorian is he's a member of a royal family in tevinter, he gay, and his father disliked it and tried to use magic to turn him straight. Alot of people may have not liked miranda and jack quest, but they had more overall substance. Like I said, if their was a mission for a straight character dealing with his sexuality people would question it. But because he's gay it's relevant.

[d4rk fallen]

There already was in DAI so don't see why not as long as its not there just to be there type things.

& no would not romance

[Killroy]

There already was in DAI so don't see why not as long as its not there just to be there type things.

& no would not romance

 

I mean, you say that...

 

 

...but these are all trans people. The last one there BTW, she used to be a big, burly US Marine. So clearly there can be beauty found in just about anyone, no matter the genitals they were born with.

[Furisco]

I mean, you say that...

 

...but these are all trans people. The last one there BTW, she used to be a big, burly US Marine. So clearly there can be beauty found in just about anyone, no matter the genitals they were born with.

No one said that they aren't beautiful, it's just his option.

[Panda]

Yes there should be and maybe I'd romance one, depends on character really. Would s/he be boring human?

[Catastrophy]

I don't know, but mushrooms need to be in. I'm pretty strong on that. No compromises.

[Sartoz]

Yes, but what was the purpose to Krem other than to provide that? Did Krem really do anything pivotal? Otherwise, he's about as important as Scout Harding or the Stablemaster or any of the other characters like that, but he gets a lot of dialogue time and becomes a major minor character because he's a walking PSA.

                                                                                        <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>>

 

Interesting.

I used Krem to get to Bull. After that, I left this character to his own devices and he played no further part in the game (for me). If, as you say, Krem was given a lot of dialogue from the Word Budget then, I can safely conclude that the character was deliberately created for an internal Bio purpose, other than as a gate to get to Bull. Also interesting is that this "purpose" was given enough weight to influence the artist's visual concept for the character. I give the artist and writer credit. Krem gave off "a weird vibe".  He, along with Kaidan, Ashley and Cortez are the only characters that I parked, so to  speak.

[78stonewobble]

I wouldn't mind it if they were there... but as others have argued, I also presume that me universe technology is so advanced that the point of making a fuss of them is moot.

 

If people wanna make the point of representation because "real life"... Then I am in favour of representation for everyone... That is... representation according to demographics.

 

That means that around 3,8 percent of the characters in the game should be LGBT... The number of transgendered would be even lower.

 

Why do I think demopgrahic representation is the only way to go?

 

Because I don't believe that 1 X person is equivalent to 10 Y persons. I belive we are all equal, but I will generously allow to round up to 1.

 

 

 

PS: But I think that's a bit of a slippery slope... Because there is no limit to the groupings of people who deserve representation.

 

Personally and as an example, I'm a 30 something straight white guy with dysthymia, social anxiety, half capitalist half communist atheist and... oh yeah... I'm a smoker.

 

How was that represented? The illusiveman smoker were evil... Straightshep jokes are we'll bang ok (it's a hilarious meme tho, sent my gf that exact line this morning)? And the representations of mental problems were somewhat hit and miss...

 

...

 

I think it's a bit silly to find yourself or some specific group or person represented in a game. You/them aren't in the game... The people in the game aren't you or your friends... They are a whole other bunch of people...

 

And I think it's selfish to feel you should be represented disproportionately to demographics... That's not being equal... that's being better than others.

[daveliam]

Also? Those demographic studies that you mention are inherently flawed. If you had read the studies, you'd know that the researchers specifically caution against using the findings the way that you (and others on BSN) try to use them.....because the authors themselves call their own methodology flawed. Basically, the only way to use those demographics correctly is to say that '3.8% of Americans will self-identify as LGBT in a survey'. Which is not a compelling story. But it's also not the same as '3.8% of humans are LGBT'. And that's exactly why the authors tell you not to interpret their data that way.

[Hazegurl]

I mean, you say that...

 

 

...but these are all trans people. The last one there BTW, she used to be a big, burly US Marine. So clearly there can be beauty found in just about anyone, no matter the genitals they were born with.

Sure they are beautiful but it takes more than beauty to keep a relationship going.  Whether or not the transition is complete down below and wanting bio kids can also factor in whether or not a person would romance a trans person.

 

 

I never said he should be erased or his content should get shafted. I just think his content should have been better. I would have liked something more on the lines of telling me who Dorian is more, something thattells me more about his character. Relaying who he prefers to bang does not do that. What I learned about Dorian is he's a member of a royal family in tevinter, he gay, and his father disliked it and tried to use magic to turn him straight. Alot of people may have not liked miranda and jack quest, but they had more overall substance. Like I said, if their was a mission for a straight character dealing with his sexuality people would question it. But because he's gay it's relevant.

I agree, the focus on Dorian's sexuality was really uncalled for in a setting like Thedas anyway. It was more of Gaider hijacking the character's story and inserting his own that's the major issue, he never allowed Dorian to be his own character in the setting, instead he became a therapeutic sponge for Gaider's own daddy issues.  I think if Gaider actually put more thought into Dorian, he would have been in Calpurnia's role which IMO would have made him a far more complex companion to have. But IMO, none of the companion content were great or relevant to the story except for Solas and unfortunately this content is gated behind race and gender. 

 

But I don't see how Dorian has less substance than Miranda or Jack though. How many times did we have to hear about Miranda being made into a perfect human by her evil daddy, and how many times were her a** thrown in the player's face?  Or hear Jack's wailing about Cerberus? Not to mention that Jack's sexual past and promiscuity was brought up on more than one occasion.  Like Dorian, you just have to care enough about them and their surface problems to get to the "heart" of the character...aka qualities you may like about them.  Otherwise, it's pretty easy to get the impression that these are just sexualized bag of sad characters you're placed in the role of banging/hugging the pain away.  Until BW weave the companions into the plot more they'll almost always be irrelevant side content.

[78stonewobble]

Also? Those demographic studies that you mention are inherently flawed. If you had read the studies, you'd know that the researchers specifically caution against using the findings the way that you (and others on BSN) try to use them.....because the authors themselves call their own methodology flawed. Basically, the only way to use those demographics correctly is to say that '3.8% of Americans will self-identify as LGBT in a survey'. Which is not a compelling story. But it's also not the same as '3.8% of humans are LGBT'. And that's exactly why the authors tell you not to interpret their data that way.

 

Obviously self identifying... And that is a very conscious choice I make there...

 

For what is the alternative? That someone, somewhere... Not just decides for other people, what they feel like and what they should be like, but actually decides what other people are. 

 

And if those people can do that... They can just decide there are no LGBT people and the problems solved... 

 

Now, that idea... Is certainly not something I find respectfull of other people or would subscribe to... and I find it a little disturbing that some people would think that's preferable. 

[VelvetStraitjacket]

As others have already said, if they would do it right, why not? Krem wasn't perfect, but he was a large step in the right direction. So, if they did another trans character that had a purpose for being there, a story, and more to them than just being trans, I'm all for it.

[Sifr]

Yes, but what was the purpose to Krem other than to provide that? Did Krem really do anything pivotal? Otherwise, he's about as important as Scout Harding or the Stablemaster or any of the other characters like that, but he gets a lot of dialogue time and becomes a major minor character because he's a walking PSA.

 

Krem's character shows us another side to Tevinter, that despite all the negative encounters we've had with them in previous games, they aren't all moustache-twirling villains (although Dorian has the epic 'tache for it), nor is there society divided solely into powerful mages and powerless slaves.

 

Krem lets us see how the hum-drum regular folk in the Imperium manage in a society that values magic above all, mentioning how he joined the military to help pay the bills, while his father was forced to become an indentured servant after their family business went under.

 

The only part of Krem being trans that deals with him having been a victim of discrimination is that because of Tevinter's conservative outlook and the minor technicality that he lied on the application form about his gender, it would have been enough for them to have ended the career of a promising soldier in their prime. Someone who was apparently so good at his job in the two years he served, was even up for promotion when his trans status happened to be discovered.

 

Furthermore, Krem's character and the rest of the Chargers helps inform and tell us a lot about Bull as a company commander. Bull doesn't care about someone's race, gender identity, sexuality, religion or even past history... as long as you have his back in a fight you're good with him.

 

The story of how Bull and Krem met also tells us how despite appearances, Bull is not the rambunctious bruiser he often acts as if he is, but has a compassionate streak that was enough to step in front of a flail, losing his eye to prevent someone getting beaten, despite having never met them before.

 

The clear friendship between Bull and Krem, who's obviously his right-hand-man, shows also precisely what Bull stands to lose in his personal quest. Does he abandon his friends and comrades for the sake of the mission because it's what the Qun demands he do, or does he stand by them and forever alienate himself from his people?

 

We find out in WOT2 that Bull the incident that nearly broke him in Seheron was because violated the Qun (using a technicality as an excuse) to allow his squad to carry out a retaliatory strike solely for the purpose of getting revenge. That mission ended up leading to him losing most of his squad and several close friends as a result and he was left with deep emotional (and physical) scars as a result of it. Now he's being asked to do the same thing and go through it again, sacrificing his friends and comrades, this time for the Qun.

 

Krem has far more purpose in the game and relating to Bull's story than to serve as just a PSA on trans discrimination.

[10K]

Sure they are beautiful but it takes more than beauty to keep a relationship going.  Whether or not the transition is complete down below and wanting bio kids can also factor in whether or not a person would romance a trans person.
 
 
I agree, the focus on Dorian's sexuality was really uncalled for in a setting like Thedas anyway. It was more of Gaider hijacking the character's story and inserting his own that's the major issue, he never allowed Dorian to be his own character in the setting, instead he became a therapeutic sponge for Gaider's own daddy issues.  I think if Gaider actually put more thought into Dorian, he would have been in Calpurnia's role which IMO would have made him a far more complex companion to have. But IMO, none of the companion content were great or relevant to the story except for Solas and unfortunately this content is gated behind race and gender. 
 
But I don't see how Dorian has less substance than Miranda or Jack though. How many times did we have to hear about Miranda being made into a perfect human by her evil daddy, and how many times were her a** thrown in the player's face?  Or hear Jack's wailing about Cerberus? Not to mention that Jack's sexual past and promiscuity was brought up on more than one occasion.  Like Dorian, you just have to care enough about them and their surface problems to get to the "heart" of the character...aka qualities you may like about them.  Otherwise, it's pretty easy to get the impression that these are just sexualized bag of sad characters you're placed in the role of banging/hugging the pain away.  Until BW weave the companions into the plot more they'll almost always be irrelevant side content.

I never said Jack or miranda had more substance than Dorain, I said their quest had more substance than his.

[Dalinne]

Sifr, BRAVO!

 

I get so tired when Krem is reduced as the "trans-character". Sometimes I get the impression that reduction is made by us, the character was complex enough.

[daveliam]

Obviously self identifying... And that is a very conscious choice I make there...

 

For what is the alternative? That someone, somewhere... Not just decides for other people, what they feel like and what they should be like, but actually decides what other people are. 

 

And if those people can do that... They can just decide there are no LGBT people and the problems solved... 

 

Now, that idea... Is certainly not something I find respectfull of other people or would subscribe to... and I find it a little disturbing that some people would think that's preferable. 

 

What I meant was that using self-identifying data about a historically marginalized group is flawed.  Because to use it the way that you are trying to use it, you have to assume that none of the "I'd prefer not to answer" people aren't LGBT, which, frankly, is pretty damned unlikely.  You also have to assume that none of the "straight" people are lying.  As someone who spent my whole high school and college years in the closet, I can tell you that there is no way that I would have answered "gay" to a survey when I was in the closet.  So it's safe to say that there are probably some people in that data who are in the closet.  There is still a HUGE amount of discrimination in many states that cause Americans to stay closeted.  And there are still many religious Americans who struggle with their self-identity because of the cultural messages in organized religion about LGBT people.  Until that goes away (i.e. never), this kind of data will never accurately represent the total percentage of LGBT people.

 

So, basically, it's not accurate data for the story that you are trying to make it tell.  And the researchers specifically say that.  They say, in their report, that the data is flawed for the exact reasons that I just mentioned.  So the only way to accurately use this data is to say that '3.8% of Americans will self-identify as gay in a survey'.  Which has nothing to do with how many gay characters should be in a video game.

 

<snip>

 

This is what I think.  His story, to me, has always been about the other side of Tevinter.  What life is like for someone who isn't from a mage family.  It's not super fleshed out because Krem is a minor character.  It's just to give us a taste of what we're about to see in DA4.  Is he transgender?  Yep.  But that's not at all "what his story is about".  It's about 1 minute of dialogue from a character that has about 10 minutes of content. 

[Sifr]

Sifr, BRAVO!

 

I get so tired when Krem is reduced as the "trans-character". Sometimes I get the impression that reduction is made by us, the character was complex enough.

 

It bothers me as well.

 

Saying Krem is a one note character is not true, because in addition to having his own story and background, he gives us a window and new insight into Bull's character we wouldn't otherwise have gotten.

 

It's like kind of how Thrask and Cullen were used in DA2 to give us a Templar perspective. They gave us more insight on Meredith, showed us that not all Templars in Kirkwal were hardliners (Thrask was a sympathiser with a secret mage daughter and Cullen was a moderate at this point in his arc) and not everyone in the Gallows was necessarily happy with how she ran shop.

 

It was important for us as the audience to see this perspective, because DA2 often gave us far more reason to side with the mages than the Templars whenever an issue came up, especially with no-one in our party who might have been a Templar. The closest we get is Aveline who was married to one, but aside from that even if Carver joins, he's still on a bus after Act 1 unless you bring him along in DLC.

 

Similarly, Cauthrien in DAO gave us a little bit of a glimpse into Loghain. The game makes clear that despite her misgivings, the man clearly had earned her loyalty and she'd follow him to the Void if he ordered her too. Yet we see that if you talk her down from her last stand at the Landsmeet, she does question what he's done and eventually begs the Warden to save Loghain from himself.

 

People like Cauthrien were important to show us what a fallen hero Loghain had let himself become, as well as why so many people in Ferelden had been willing to fight and die for his side of the civil war. The man had been a national hero and he'd earned the respect and deference people gave him.

[Undead Han]

As others have already said, if they would do it right, why not? Krem wasn't perfect, but he was a large step in the right direction. So, if they did another trans character that had a purpose for being there, a story, and more to them than just being trans, I'm all for it.

 

I thought Krem was a step in the wrong direction actually, in that she was rather obviously created to just to check a box. There needs to be more than just representation for a character to be interesting.

 

Some of her banter with the Iron Bull also felt more like a public service announcement than natural dialogue in the game world. It also didn't help that the Qun got a little bit of a kindler, gentler rewrite in order to accommodate Krem.

In contrast I thought Dorian's content was much better handled. Like Krem it deals with modern LGBT issues, but it does it in a much less ham-fisted manner. And it doesn't alter in way how Tevinter was presented previously. In fact Dorian & his father's falling out, if anything, was in keeping with the lore on Tevinter.

 

I haven't read any of the recent DA comics or books, but from reading posts about Maevaris here, and the brief mentions during the War Table missions, it sounds like she could be a much more interesting character than Krem. If she is a major character in DA4 however, I hope Weekes isn't writing her. 

[aoibhealfae]

Seems like some of us here just want people to be gay or transgender but doesn't want them to be actively shown or have content to show that they are gay or transgender because people want the appearance that Mass Effect and Dragon Age is a world without gender or sexual orientation discrimination.... ...right?