671 réponses à ce sujet

[Sifr]

I thought Krem was a step in the wrong direction actually, in that he was rather obviously created to just to check a box. There needs to be more than just representation for a character to be interesting.

 

Some of his banter with the Iron Bull also felt more like a public service announcement than natural dialogue in the game world. It also didn't help that the Qun got a little bit of a kindler, gentler rewrite in order to accommodate Krem.

 

Krem should be referred to as a guy and with masculine pronouns, fixed this for you in the above quote. Slips of the tongue can and do happen when discussing this topic, it's normal... only when it's done intentionally do trans people tend to find it a tad offensive. You got in spot on in the part of the post I didn't quote, when you referred to Mae properly as she.

 

(Sorry, thought I'd point it out for those who might not know, rather than meaning to sound as if I'm complaining or being pedantic.)

[Hazegurl]

I never said Jack or miranda had more substance than Dorain, I said their quest had more substance than his.

Oh, well yeah I can agree with that. lol!

 

Some of his banter with the Iron Bull also felt more like a public service announcement than natural dialogue in the game world. It also didn't help that the Qun got a little bit of a kindler, gentler rewrite in order to accommodate Krem.

 

I think Krem and IB's relationship would have been far more interesting if the Qun wasn't rewritten.  Afterall, IB starts off using these people as a cover so I can see him hiring Krem for his skill and may not even know he was born a woman until later, but keeps him on simply because he's good at his job and the Chargers like him. Perhaps have IB speak of the growing respect his has for Krem despite the teachings of the Qun. It could have showcased another aspect of IB changing because of the Chargers.  But the ball was dropped in favor of an easy PSA segment.

 

Seems like some of us here just want people to be gay or transgender but doesn't want them to be actively shown or have content to show that they are gay or transgender because people want the appearance that Mass Effect and Dragon Age is a world without gender or sexual orientation discrimination.... ...right?

 

No, he creators told us multiple times throughout the years that these worlds already lack sexual orientation discrimination.  It's a case of BW shooting themselves in the foot now that they suddenly want to tell these types of stories.  There is nothing wrong with an LGBT character being open about it.

[daveliam]

No, he creators told us multiple times throughout the years that these worlds already lack sexual orientation discrimination.  It's a case of BW shooting themselves in the foot now that they suddenly want to tell these types of stories.  There is nothing wrong with an LGBT character being open about it.

 

But Dorian's story isn't one of discrimination based on his sexual orientation.  It's a story about a son refusing to go along with his arranged marriage, damaging the relationship between a powerful Magister and his only heir.  Dorian's story could have played out in an almost identical way if Dorian were straight.

 

We still don't have any indication that there is any discrimination based on sexual orientation in Thedas.  But we shouldn't be surprised that the nation that relies upon eugenics in their noble families don't look favorably on individuals who don't "do their duty" to family.

[78stonewobble]

1. What I meant was that using self-identifying data about a historically marginalized group is flawed.  

2. Because to use it the way that you are trying to use it, you have to assume that none of the "I'd prefer not to answer" people aren't LGBT, which, frankly, is pretty damned unlikely. 3. You also have to assume that none of the "straight" people are lying.

4. As someone who spent my whole high school and college years in the closet, I can tell you that there is no way that I would have answered "gay" to a survey when I was in the closet.

5. So it's safe to say that there are probably some people in that data who are in the closet.

6. There is still a HUGE amount of discrimination in many states that cause Americans to stay closeted.

7. And there are still many religious Americans who struggle with their self-identity because of the cultural messages in organized religion about LGBT people.

8. Until that goes away (i.e. never), this kind of data will never accurately represent the total percentage of LGBT people.

 

9. So, basically, it's not accurate data for the story that you are trying to make it tell.

10.  And the researchers specifically say that.

11. They say, in their report, that the data is flawed for the exact reasons that I just mentioned.

12. So the only way to accurately use this data is to say that '3.8% of Americans will self-identify as gay in a survey'.  

13. Which has nothing to do with how many gay characters should be in a video game.

 

 

1. Mention 1 demographical estimation that is without flaws and bear in mind that we are talking anonymous self reporting.  

 

2. You are assuming that I think this is 100 percent accurate. Noone thinks that, but that it is a best estimate. You are also making assumptions with no statistical evidence as to that some amount of people will misreport themselves. On what statistical significant survey, in an area you apparently cannot make any selfreporting surveys in, do you base your assumption on? 

 

3. Based on what statistically significant survey, in an area you apparently cannot make any selfreporting surveys in, do you base your assumption on?

 

4. Anecdotal evidence is not representative. 

 

5. Based on what statistically significant survey, in an area you apparently cannot make any selfreporting surveys in, do you base your assumption on?

 

I'll agree with the hypothesis... Tho I think that an anonymous selfreporting survey is the way to go for minimizing errors. 

 

6. And that is why anonymous selfreporting is presumably the most accurate estimation we will get. 

 

But lets go with anecdotal evidence... When I walk down the street, people rarely cheer... Would you then argue that you cannot estimate any of the following factors demographically with any degree of accuracy: Straight, white, male, 30 something, mental illness, being a smoker, being a communist, being a capitalist? Would you flat out reject any survey that includes those factors? 

 

7. Postulation without evidence... Tho I will agree that it seems likely, but I see no better option that anonymous selfreporting. 

 

8. Define accuracy? Because you have no problem making broad sweeping statements about what people will and will not report in anonymous self reporting surveys with absolutely no evidence to back that up, other than your own story, which offcourse cannot be extrapolated. 

 

9. Best possible estimate... Which is adequate for the purpose of this discussion and you have provided no other numbers with higher accuracy. 

 

10. Offcourse they do and they should and we allready know it, but if it were as pointless as you make it out to be, why the hell do the survey? Because obviously we wanna have the best possible estimate. And best possible estimate does obviously not mean 100 percent accurate numbers, which we will never have. 

 

11. Flawed to an unknown degree. We don't know the accuracy. Do you have any other surveys with proven higher accuracy? 

 

12. Which was obviously implied to me and most everyone else... And the alternative is saying that those people don't know who they are or what they're doing and we should decide for them, which has obviously never been a good idea. 

 

13. That is also not what I said...

 

People can make games containing what ever characters they want to and in whatever demographical proportions they want for all I care. 

 

But If people want representation in a game because Eg. X is gay here in the real world and thus there should be gay people in this fictional world, then I think that the representation should be based on real world demographics, since that is the example the person is drawing from, allthough I think it's ok to round up to atleast 1 character representation, because I'm just that nice of a guy. 

 

And in that case, to expect disproportionate demographical representation is selfish and thinking you're worth more than others. Not to mention the sheer irony of trying to fight discrimination with discrimination. 

[daveliam]

<snip>

 

One more time, dude.  Read the actual study that you are quoting.  I'm telling you what the researchers themselves say.  They specifically say not to use this study the way that you are trying to use it, but it sounds like you think you understand demography better than demographers.  Your issue is with them.  Take it up with them. 

[Sifr]

We still don't have any indication that there is any discrimination based on sexual orientation in Thedas.  But we shouldn't be surprised that the nation that relies upon eugenics in their noble families don't look favorably on individuals who don't "do their duty" to family.

 

In Orlais, rumours of a same-sex relationship between Emperor Florian and Meghren caused a rift that lead to the latter being sent to Ferelden to administrate the Occupation as the new Regent. However, we don't if the scandal may have been more to do with them violating some taboo by being first cousins, rather than anything to do with them being in a homosexual relationship?

 

Could have been both, I suppose, but Orlesian foppishness even among straight individuals doesn't make it seem like being gay is that much of a shocking concept to them. That we overhear a gay couple in the Winter Palace having an loud argument without seeming concern of being overheard, seems to indicate that Orlesians don't bother to keep it hidden behind closed doors, as their counterparts would in Tevinter.

[Vortex13]

@Vortex, I may not be the one to argue against your pov, because I'm heavily bias in favor of humanity and human stories. I wouldn't want my gameplay filled with non human stuff. I like SWTOR and KOTOR 1-2, but listening to every other alien ramble on with their alien languages gets on my nerves.  However, I do agree with the retconning of the Qunari, and even removing the oppression of the elves.  Thedas is suddenly a world where everyone gets along and centuries old oppression can be ended in a mere few months. What's even stranger about Tevinter is the fact that it's actually not a homophobic culture according to the WoT book.

 

 

I can respect that, and I don't want to completely remove those human elements from the games, just scale them back to a more balanced ratio like we had in the first games of the series.

 

We can have elements like these, but not at the cost of the diversity of the setting; I don't want the latest BioWare title wind up like this concerning the non-human elements:

 

[ZipZap2000]

No, he creators told us multiple times throughout the years that these worlds already lack sexual orientation discrimination.  It's a case of BW shooting themselves in the foot now that they suddenly want to tell these types of stories.  There is nothing wrong with an LGBT character being open about it.

 

I agree with everything here.

[SnakeCode]

Demographic estimates don't (and shouldn't) matter in regards to videogame representation. Especially in those games that aren't based on real life or set in the real world. If devs decided that 50% or more of their world's population were gay, or trans it isn't a problem, because it's a conscious design choice. It isn't a reflection of reality, and shouldn't be confined to the same limitations. It's why these "only 0.0005% of characters in any single game should be trans" arguments are ridiculous. As are the people complaining about the lack of minorities in TW3, because it goes both ways.

[Hazegurl]

But Dorian's story isn't one of discrimination based on his sexual orientation.  It's a story about a son refusing to go along with his arranged marriage, damaging the relationship between a powerful Magister and his only heir.  Dorian's story could have played out in an almost identical way if Dorian were straight.

 

We still don't have any indication that there is any discrimination based on sexual orientation in Thedas.  But we shouldn't be surprised that the nation that relies upon eugenics in their noble families don't look favorably on individuals who don't "do their duty" to family.

True, except Gaider has Dorian say a line that makes no sense for the world he lives in when he asks why does it matter if he likes men or something like that.  It's an out of place line when you live a world where no one cares if you like men.  Dorian's story may not outright be a sexual discrimination story but it is a blatant allegory for one.

 

In the WoT it mentions that Tevinter has no issues with homosexuality as long as you pop out some kids but that most noble men/women choose not to enter into same sex relationships and stick with slaves and servants or something along those lines. 

[78stonewobble]

One more time, dude.  Read the actual study that you are quoting.  I'm telling you what the researchers themselves say.  They specifically say not to use this study the way that you are trying to use it, but it sounds like you think you understand demography better than demographers.  Your issue is with them.  Take it up with them. 

 

Your flawed arguments invalidated all of demography, but rests ultimately on demographers. Great job dude. 

 

Yes, we know that demographic surveys are not 100 percent accurate and subject to flaws, but sometimes they are the best estimates we have. 

 

Now... do you flat out reject any and all anonymous selfreporting survey of eg. weight, whether people smoke or what they vote on the fact that there are errors and flaws?  

[Dean_the_Young]

I see no good reason why there shouldn't be transgendered individuals in Mass Effect: Andromeda. 

As for romancing them, if they are interesting and I like them I'll make a character that romances them. 

 

If not a human transgender, there should certainly be an alien species who defies gender stereotypes.

 

Honestly, I think this is a case where the sci-fi nature of Mass Effect and aliens as anthromorphizations works better for the use of metaphor/analogy as a lead-in for a topic. DA is suited for transgender in practice, since gender stereotypes are already often deconstructed in the DA setting- matriarchial political system, few clear gender distinctions for important things, use of differeing identity covers-  but Mass Effect would be better suited for transgender by metaphor.

 

Aliens in Mass Effect are already projections of human cultures and dynamics. I mean, just look at the Asari- faux denials aside, they're the race of lesbian space babes. 'Monogendered' was a farce of an excuse: they're seen, act, and treated as women down to the pronouns.

 

Mass Effect would be a good setting to approach the topic of sexual dimorphism by, well, having a species that's not sexually dimorphic. A hermaphroditic species that truly has no set gender concept- who changes by cycle or context or even deliberate intent- would be perfectly acceptable in the concept of using aliens as a way to explore aspects of humanity. The defiance of dimorphic normism, experiences of transition, and interaction with those who don't share certain basic viewpoints on the nature of identity.

 

I'm not invested in the idea of a trans character one way or the other so long as it's tasteful and not tokenism, but I would be interested in an alien species that challenges human-centric (and cultural-centric) expectations.

[78stonewobble]

Demographic estimates don't (and shouldn't) matter in regards to videogame representation. Especially in those games that aren't based on real life or set in the real world. If devs decided that 50% or more of their world's population were gay, or trans it isn't a problem, because it's a conscious design choice. It isn't a reflection of reality, and shouldn't be confined to the same limitations. It's why these "only 0.0005% of characters in any single game should be trans" arguments are ridiculous. As are the people complaining about the lack of minorities in TW3, because it goes both ways.

 

I agree... but if the argument of representation stems from "because I'm lefthanded in real life, there should be a left handed representation of me in this fictional future whatever world"... Then I think it's hard to get around demographics as the only objectively fair way of deciding who get's represented and how much. 

 

 

PS: And personally I don't care about if there are games full of one sexuality, one gender, one skincolour, 1 duck sub genus whatever... Some i'll like, some I won't, but that's just my taste... not others... People can make whatever they want, play the game they want for all I care... 

 

My problem is just with the abovementioned argument, because I ultimately believe that 1 person is worth no more or no less than any other person. 

[daveliam]

True, except Gaider has Dorian say a line that makes no sense for the world he lives in when he asks why does it matter if he likes men or something like that.  It's an out of place line when you live a world where no one cares if you like men.  Dorian's story may not outright be a sexual discrimination story but it is a blatant allegory for one.

 

In the WoT it mentions that Tevinter has no issues with homosexuality as long as you pop out some kids but that most noble men/women choose not to enter into same sex relationships and stick with slaves and servants or something along those lines. 

 

Yeah, I'm not sure what line you are referring to (it's been a while since I've played that story line), but I can see where you are coming from.  I tend to think it's more of the latter -- Where it's not about his sexual orientation; it's about his unwillingness to just marry a mage girl and pop out some kids while he has a slave boy lover on the side.  But I do remember a line or two about "liking men", so I can see why some people see it that way. 

[Fandango]

In answer to the OP, I'm all for it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well I'm gonna get jumped on for this but no, I wouldn't.

No matter how it's done it'll look like they're pandering to the current mood, SJWs, social media or whatever.  Even if it's a beautifully written story and a great character, many ppl, and perhaps the media, will start rolling their eyes no matter how it's handled.

 

If I worked for BioWare, I'd tackle the subject in an entirely different way.  I'd create a species of aliens that are non-gendered and androgenous.  Not Asari, but a beautiful yet handsome creature that had a VA you couldn't quite place, like Shale for example.  Shale is female with a female VA but it's not immediately apparent.  I would NOT hire a super famous femShep VA that we all know is a woman the second we hear her.

 

This alien species would then reach the point in their life where they could chose which sex to be for the sake of reproduction.  He or she would lean one way, but have pressure from family to go the other way.  Your interaction with them would, if well written, highlight the inner turmoil they're going through as society pushes them to be one gender, whilst inside they feel like the other.

 

So what I'm trying to say, perhaps clumsily, is that the issues of gender could be told with far more impact if done in a unique way like that, instead of 'here's an extra human we added to the ship who's transgender'.

 

Let's face it, when given a transgender character, or a gay character, some ppl close their minds and go 'NOPE' and don't interact much with them.  I think far more ppl would respond to something like this, and be willing to listen to the character's story.  And perhaps through their story, have opened themselves up to learning more about a very real human problem through the eyes of an alien companion.  

 

Wish I'd read this instead of just posting my thought, because this is a good summation.

 

One of the advantages of sci-fi and alien species is that you can use your aliens to approach issues from an angle that avoids some of the preemptive biases and expectations. A trans human character would spark suspicions of tokenism, pandering, and representation even before they opened their mouth. A hermaphroditic alien species could approach many of the same elements with less controversy- because, for better and worse, it's 'alien' and 'different' even as aliens are some of the most human characters to empathize with (and thus what they hold isn't so alien at all).

 

 

Cultural context has changed since Bioware raised Asari as the nod-and-wink lesbian option in Mass Effect. People are more accepting of same-sex relationships than they used to be, but the rise of SJW concerns threatens a backlash against even the perception of pandering. You can still explore new concepts through the filter of aliens, however- if that's even your desire to.

[daveliam]

I do think that "irrelevant because of technology" argument doesn't hold up.  Individuals would still be transgender, despite what types of technology exist.  And, given that ME (unlike DA) is based off of our real world, there will still likely be issues around transgender people.  It's unlikely to disappear completely in a few hundred years. 

 

But, in response to the OP, I'm in favor for including a trans character if that's the character that the writers want to make.  Of course, even if it were that way, they'd still be accused of "pandering", so they are damned either way.  But, yeah, of course I'd be in favor of the idea.  With regard to romancing the character, I can't answer that without knowing who the character is -- Is it a transman or transwoman?  Since my PCs are usually gay guys, I'd only be interested in a transman.  Then, who is this guy?  Is he likeable?  A douche?  That makes a huge difference.  Basically, if there were a transman character who was someone that I'd be interested in romancing anyway, then of course I'd be interesting in romancing him in the game.  You know, just like any other character.....

 

Also, bonus points for Aydian Dowling showing up in this thread.  He is fiiiiiiiiiiine.

[Fandango]

Given that we've seen so very few transgendered characters in Mass Effect to date, I just don't buy the 'pandering' or 'demography' arguments against doing so for this latest game. 

[Vortex13]

Wish I'd read this instead of just posting my thought, because this is a good summation.

 

One of the advantages of sci-fi and alien species is that you can use your aliens to approach issues from an angle that avoids some of the preemptive biases and expectations. A trans human character would spark suspicions of tokenism, pandering, and representation even before they opened their mouth. A hermaphroditic alien species could approach many of the same elements with less controversy- because, for better and worse, it's 'alien' and 'different' even as aliens are some of the most human characters to empathize with (and thus what they hold isn't so alien at all).

 

 

An alien species like the Liir from Sword of the Stars would fit this concept perfectly, while at the same time retaining enough of an 'alien' nature as not to be labeled with the 'space trans-gender' as their sole defining characteristic.

[78stonewobble]

I do think that "irrelevant because of technology" argument doesn't hold up.  Individuals would still be transgender, despite what types of technology exist.  And, given that ME (unlike DA) is based off of our real world, there will still likely be issues around transgender people.  It's unlikely to disappear completely in a few hundred years. 

 

But, in response to the OP, I'm in favor for including a trans character if that's the character that the writers want to make.  Of course, even if it were that way, they'd still be accused of "pandering", so they are damned either way.  But, yeah, of course I'd be in favor of the idea.  With regard to romancing the character, I can't answer that without knowing who the character is -- Is it a transman or transwoman?  Since my PCs are usually gay guys, I'd only be interested in a transman.  Then, who is this guy?  Is he likeable?  A douche?  That makes a huge difference.  Basically, if there were a transman character who was someone that I'd be interested in romancing anyway, then of course I'd be interesting in romancing him in the game.  You know, just like any other character.....

 

Also, bonus points for Aydian Dowling showing up in this thread.  He is fiiiiiiiiiiine.

 

Actually... you could view it as technology making it possible for people to not want to change gender and thus eliminating transgenderedness or possibly eliminating it even before birth... 

 

I suspect few would be interested in discussing it from that point of view. 

 

I know it's not the same, but after the test for Downs syndrome became available here, the number of births with kids with Downs syndrome had been more than halved and out of those born, only very few born if tested, most births were from couples not doing the test. 

 

...

 

Anyways... Personally? I just hope the devs, go with what they can write a good character and stories for. 

[MrObnoxiousUK]

Should Transgenders be in MEA,you write like they are strange aliens that are separate from humanity.

All types of groups should be featured with the same frequency that they exist in normal community's. 

Also i am not attracted to that type of person so i would not romance them,more power to those that do,but a volunteer is worth ten pressed men,so do not insist on it being forced on everyone.

[78stonewobble]

Given that we've seen so very few transgendered characters in Mass Effect to date, I just don't buy the 'pandering' or 'demography' arguments against doing so for this latest game. 

 

The demographics of mass effect games is argument that demopgrahy is a bad argument against trans people in mass effect andromeda? 

 

Doesn't that also make demographics, eg. the existence of trans people in the real world, a bad argument FOR trans people in mass effect? 

 

Just something to think about... 

 

PS: Completely agree with pandering tho... bioware should do what they can make good characters and stories with... 

[Sifr]

I do think that "irrelevant because of technology" argument doesn't hold up.  Individuals would still be transgender, despite what types of technology exist.  And, given that ME (unlike DA) is based off of our real world, there will still likely be issues around transgender people.  It's unlikely to disappear completely in a few hundred years. 

 

The advanced technology of ME would make it easier for trans individuals to transition than in DA, but you are right that transgender issues will continue regardless of how advanced medical tech gets.

 

While I think that overall society would be more accepting of trans individuals in the future, given that people are dealing with aliens without issues on a daily basis, that being said, we know that bigotry and intolerance has not vanished entirely, not only for humans but the alien species as well.

 

Terra Firma and Cerberus show there are still members of humanity with anti-alien or pro-Human agendas, while the Alliance has open enmity for the Batarians, lingering resentment towards the Turians and some distrust of alien nationals like Quarians.

 

Just because human (and galactic) society has become more integrated within a larger and more varied community doesn't mean the old prejudices or hatreds will die out or go away overnight. It's something that everyone has to work at to overcome, so that society can move in a more positive direction.

 

That's something that always bothered me in Star Trek, where despite this being the Roddenberry ideal that people overcome their prejudices, blanket statements that pat themselves on the back by saying "Humans are more evolved" and "Humanity is no longer prejudiced and intolerant" is a vast oversimplification of societal problems that just cannot hold up under scrutiny.

 

Often Trek seems to treat it as this trait was naturally ingrained in their psyche from birth, but the truth is that a species would not "evolve" into better people. However society could and that's a far better message I think, that Trek Humans are not "better" inherently due to birth, but because the culture they belong to instills the belief that they should always strive to be better at their core.

 

Mass Effect society in that regard is a better take on this, because society does seem to be getting better, albeit gradually over time and because of hard work and effort on the part of the people who live there.

[MrObnoxiousUK]

The advanced technology of ME would make it easier for trans individuals to transition than in DA, but you are right that transgender issues will continue regardless of how advanced medical tech gets.

 

While I think that overall society would be more accepting of trans individuals in the future, given that people are dealing with aliens without issues on a daily basis, that being said, we know that bigotry and intolerance has not vanished entirely, not only for humans but the alien species as well.

 

Terra Firma and Cerberus show there are still members of humanity with anti-alien or pro-Human agendas, while the Alliance has open enmity for the Batarians, lingering resentment towards the Turians and some distrust of alien nationals like Quarians.

 

Just because human (and galactic) society has become more integrated within a larger and more varied community doesn't mean the old prejudices or hatreds will die out or go away overnight. It's something that everyone has to work at to overcome, so that society can move in a more positive direction.

 

That's something that always bothered me in Star Trek, where despite this being the Roddenberry ideal that people overcome their prejudices, blanket statements that pat themselves on the back by saying "Humans are more evolved" and "Humanity is no longer prejudiced and intolerant" is a vast oversimplification of societal problems that just cannot hold up under scrutiny.

 

Often Trek seems to treat it as this trait was naturally ingrained in their psyche from birth, but the truth is that a species would not "evolve" into better people. However society could and that's a far better message I think, that Trek Humans are not "better" inherently due to birth, but because the culture they belong to instills the belief that they should always strive to be better at their core.

 

Mass Effect society in that regard is a better take on this, because society does seem to be getting better, albeit gradually over time and because of hard work and effort on the part of the people who live there.

Star Trek the next gen had an episode that kind of dealt with Transgenderism and the alien society would forcibly "Correct" them,i think the episode was called "The Outcast"

[Cyonan]

Given that we've seen so very few transgendered characters in Mass Effect to date, I just don't buy the 'pandering' or 'demography' arguments against doing so for this latest game. 

 

It's not really a problem of pandering as much as it's a problem that BioWare's most recent LGBT characters can, at times, come across with all the subtlety of a wrecking ball.

 

It makes the characters feel like a walking PSA when they're doing that, which isn't really what I want to see in my video game characters.