671 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

But Dorian's story isn't one of discrimination based on his sexual orientation.  It's a story about a son refusing to go along with his arranged marriage, damaging the relationship between a powerful Magister and his only heir.  Dorian's story could have played out in an almost identical way if Dorian were straight.

 

We still don't have any indication that there is any discrimination based on sexual orientation in Thedas.  But we shouldn't be surprised that the nation that relies upon eugenics in their noble families don't look favorably on individuals who don't "do their duty" to family.

 

That might have been the intention, but I don't think that's how it necessarily came across... proof being all the people, myself included, to whom it came across as being based on his sexual orientation. Given that meaning is something derived by the audience, what people take away is true, even if it's different from authorial intent or other audience reception.

 

Tropes like 'cure the gay', and 'trying to change who his is,' and 'not living a lie' have a stronger resonance with the gay angle than the arranged marriage. The character story focused more on that Dorian's father tried to fundamentally change his preferrance than on anything about just going ahead with an arranged marriage (like, say, blood magic to force intercourse).

 

'Blame' isn't the right word, but I do feel there was a touch of writer projection with Dorian. Gaider once wrote that writing Dorian allowed him to exorcise personal ghosts, and that was something I suspected even before I read his comment. One of the elements that stuck out to me was the parallels to gay conversion 'therapy.' The pretext of the story may have been that Dorian didn't want an arranged marriage, but the heart of the drama was about his orientation, and the father's attempt to change it. Dorian being gay was integral to his character, and I truly thought that was wonderful all around, but the character arc would have lost most of its impact had its focus actually been on anything but a gay man being forced straight.

 

If it had been a gay-on-gay arrangement, or even Dorian being heterosexual, most of the drama (and audience sympathy) would have been lost. It's a scenario which works because of the forcing of sexuality, not relationship in abstract- the story would still hold true and relatable if the political arrangement angle were dropped entirely, but wouldn't carry itself without the sexuality angle and if it were just a case of 'I don't love -him/her-.' The former is a violation of the innermost, most fundamental sense of self common to us all. The other comes across as selfish whining from an entitled and privileged aristocrat.

[Sifr]

Star Trek the next gen had an episode that kind of dealt with Transgenderism and the alien society would forcibly "Correct" them,i think the episode was called "The Outcast"

 

Well, strictly speaking "The Outcast" was about a society that had evolved into an androgynous, monogendered species, but possessed some individuals who did identify as male or female. These were derided as throwbacks by the rest of society that called back to a time when their species was gendered, then put through brainwashing/conversation therapy.

 

As an allegory for trans discrimination, I don't know if it works all the well as it's kind of the reverse situation. Rather than a conservative society telling someone they're wrong to identify as the opposite gender or as gender-neutral, this is a society of people who identify as gender-neutral insisting that someone is wrong for being born identifying as female or male.

 

As the metaphor for homosexual discrimination that it was intended to be, it still doesn't work particular well. Tthe alien in question identifies as a woman, is portrayed by a woman and enters a heterosexual relationship with Riker.

 

(The reviewer SFDebris actually made a good joke about how this all unwittingly ends up being more akin to a militant lesbian society bullying heterosexual women than an allegory about society's discrimination of gay men, which really shows how much they botched the writing.)

 

Frakes (who played Riker) did complain and later criticised the show for hiring only women to play the aliens rather than men, since it heavily undercut the entire message and point the episode was trying to make.

[78stonewobble]

Well, strictly speaking "The Outcast" was about a society that had evolved into an androgynous, monogendered species, but possessed some individuals who did identify as male or female. These were derided as throwbacks by the rest of society that called back to a time when their species was gendered, then put through brainwashing/conversation therapy.

 

As an allegory for trans discrimination, I don't know if it works all the well as it's kind of the reverse situation. Rather than a conservative society telling someone they're wrong to identify as the opposite gender or as gender-neutral, this is a society of people who identify as gender-neutral insisting that someone is wrong for being born identifying as female or male.

 

As the metaphor for homosexual discrimination that it was intended to be, it still doesn't work particular well. Tthe alien in question identifies as a woman, is portrayed by a woman and enters a heterosexual relationship with Riker.

 

(The reviewer SFDebris actually made a good joke about how this all unwittingly ends up being more akin to a militant lesbian society bullying heterosexual women than an allegory about society's discrimination of gay men, which really shows how much they botched the writing.)

 

Frakes (who played Riker) did complain and later criticised the show for hiring only women to play the aliens rather than men, since it heavily undercut the entire message and point the episode was trying to make.

 

To be fair, it only looses it's essence, if you discriminatorily decide that only some people can discriminate and then possibly the whole thing went over a persons head anyway. 

 

EDIT and PS: I mean... it's discrimination to find discriminating lesbians silly or that heterosexual women can't be discriminated against. 

 

For an episode that was about that discrimnation is bad, no matter who's doing it to whom, that point seems to have been missed then. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Given that we've seen so very few transgendered characters in Mass Effect to date, I just don't buy the 'pandering' or 'demography' arguments against doing so for this latest game. 

 

How would we know we had few transgendered characters if transgendered was truly accepted in the Mass Effect setting? Isn't the point of being transgendered, and the goal, to be what you feel yourself to be, so that it isn't remarkable? To make the transition so thoroughly that you don't need a qualifier.

 

 

Honest question, and thought, because this could be one of those elements in which people mean different things when they say the same thing.

 

Say we have a transgender woman character. What does that mean? Does that we want someone who has successfully transitioned to being a woman, so much so that you wouldn't think otherwise unless told? In Dragon Age, Krem is limited in biological transitioning, but in Mass Effect that's not (or shouldn't) be an issue. Or is telling the point- we need a woman who openly raises 'I was a man, but-' with that 'but' being used to show that they haven't fully transitioned, because they can't or aren't accepted?

 

If that's the case, do you really want a transgender woman? Or do you want someone in the process of transitioning- incomplete, or unaccepted, and not actually what you want to be? Is the goal to have someone relatable to the modern context, and deny them completion, so you can tell a story of them being between the two instead of telling the story of, well, a trans woman, ie a woman? A woman who thinks she's a woman, and is seen as a woman, and has transitioned to being a woman despite what she was born as? A woman so womanly, that you could meet her and go through an entire romance arc never thinking otherwise, with the story itself being your discovery well into it?

 

 

It's more complex than that, of course, but that's rather the point- people have different ideas of what a trans person is, or what a trans story would be. People still disagree what being trans- not least because people also argue if sex and gender are the same thing- but part of the iffyness of Bioware tackling a trans character is the ambiguity of what a trans person even is.

 

But, if we think there's a progressive angle to the Bioware intent, that they intend to show us trans characters in the ME universe as an uncontroversial thing... how would we know that they haven't already?

[AlanC9]

Actually... you could view it as technology making it possible for people to not want to change gender and thus eliminating transgenderedness or possibly eliminating it even before birth... 

Well, without the "before birth" part, you'd probably get both at once. Something like Samuel Delany's Triton, where people change whatever they feel like changing. IIRC there's a funny sequence mid-book where the hero has a little trouble getting himself altered from a heterosexual male to a heterosexual female. It's technically trivial; the problem is that the guys in the body-modification lab aren't sure where in the building the orientation lab is located, since nobody ever comes in for both procedures at once.

[vbibbi]

It's Dorian's personal quest that I was referring to not his overall inclusion, sorry for the confusion on that point. It would appear that we both feel the same way about the preachy-ness of said quest though. I will still stand by the position that adding in more of these 'trending issues' be they straight, gay, bi, trans, etc, does result in the reduction of other elements in the setting that were present prior to such social topics becoming the holy grail of video game storytelling however.

 

Just compare ME 1 and DA:O/A to their latest iterations. Contrast the level of content developed for things like the Rachni, Elcor, and Hanar, and things like Sylvans, Awakened, or intelligent demons to the amount of screen time given to showcase such things as daddy issues and bi/gay/lesbian character backgrounds, etc. Indeed, the amount of limelight given to such 'non-human' elements only decreased as the respective series went on, and also consider how characters like Steve and Samantha despite only being added in the last game of the trilogy still had more resources devoted to their development, backstory, and screen time than something like the Elcor or Rachni got in all three games combined. 

 

I dislike any special focus on any current real world hot button issues, that's not why I buy these games. Other people obviously feel differently, but that's differing opinions for you. I do know that I would gladly trade in characters like Steve, Miranda, Kaiden, or James for a serious take on a Hanar companion (like a doctor); I would personally find a third mage character in the form of the Messenger (the 'good' Awakened from DA:A) to be far more interesting than one like Dorian, who's whole selling point (according to the Devs in interviews) was how he was the first gay character in a BioWare title.

 

The point remains that if Dorian's quest had been about something else (which I would have been good with) that still wouldn't free up resources for other things. It would decrease the overall content of "real world agendas" sure, but it wouldn't increase any content outside of Dorian's character story.

 

Oh, well yeah I can agree with that. lol!

 

I think Krem and IB's relationship would have been far more interesting if the Qun wasn't rewritten.  Afterall, IB starts off using these people as a cover so I can see him hiring Krem for his skill and may not even know he was born a woman until later, but keeps him on simply because he's good at his job and the Chargers like him. Perhaps have IB speak of the growing respect his has for Krem despite the teachings of the Qun. It could have showcased another aspect of IB changing because of the Chargers.  But the ball was dropped in favor of an easy PSA segment.

 

No, he creators told us multiple times throughout the years that these worlds already lack sexual orientation discrimination.  It's a case of BW shooting themselves in the foot now that they suddenly want to tell these types of stories.  There is nothing wrong with an LGBT character being open about it.

 

Yes, this would have been great. As it stands, it's tough to really tell much about IB's conflict with the Qun until playing through the game twice and taking both paths of his quest. It would have been nice to show more of his conflict and why he's so conflicted. In the game, it seems like he only really follows the Qun because that's what he knows and how he was raised, but he really doesn't like any aspect of it. The decision to side with the Qunari is mostly about resources and political alliances rather than for IB's personal benefit.

[Dabrikishaw]

I'm not going out of my way to ask for trans characters to be included, but there's no reason to exclude them.

[LightningPoodle]

A transgender shouldn't not be included however I do think that a transgender character shouldn't be shoehorned in to the game for the sake of having one in the roster.

 

And while we're at it, if there is a transgender character, does it have to be a human? I can't believe that humans are the only ones that may want to change gender. With this, you could develop a species culture. It's the little things. If we see that one species has very defined gender roles, and a member of that species defying them and being somewhat punished for it (whether that be through violence or merely a scolding by the parent), it would give the inclusion of a transgender an actual role besides being a token.

[78stonewobble]

Well, without the "before birth" part, you'd probably get both at once. Something like Samuel Delany's Triton, where people change whatever they feel like changing. IIRC there's a funny sequence mid-book where the hero has a little trouble getting himself altered from a heterosexual male to a heterosexual female. It's technically trivial; the problem is that the guys in the body-modification lab aren't sure where in the building the orientation lab is located, since nobody ever comes in for both procedures at once.

 

Well, my point were more that we don't really know what kind of technology is possible. 

 

I admit freely, that I have no idea how it feels to be a transgendered person.

 

I've heard it described as a feeling of being born in the wrong body and for arguments sake say, that I were in that situation and I had the choice between 2 pills. 

 

One would change my body to fit my mind and the other would change my mind to fit the body. Sure I might lean towards keeping the mind safe, but I'd probably just go with what had overall less risk. 

 

Just as an example... Don't know how others would feel. 

 

PS: Or possibly future medicaid just dispenses super space happypills ad nauseam and that's why... people are just high and don't care. 

[AlanC9]

A woman who thinks she's a woman, and is seen as a woman, and has transitioned to being a woman despite what she was born as? A woman so womanly, that you could meet her and go through an entire romance arc never thinking otherwise, with the story itself being your discovery well into it?

We had that in Legion of Super-Heroes, come to think of it. Turned out that Shvaugn had always been an MTF transsexual; it was only revealed when a war disrupted the supply of Pro-Fem and she had to transition back. Fortunately, her boyfriend was OK with being his boyfriend. (Though DC's such a free-fire zone for retcons that this entire continuity has been erased.)

Of course, having the transition require continual doses of medication was the contrivance which allowed them to have the story. I don't see how ME could get away with that.

[Sifr]

To be fair, it only looses it's essence, if you discriminatorily decide that only some people can discriminate and then possibly the whole thing went over a persons head anyway. 

 

EDIT and PS: I mean... it's discrimination to find discriminating lesbians silly or that heterosexual women can't be discriminated against. 

 

For an episode that was about that discrimnation is bad, no matter who's doing it to whom, that point seems to have been missed then. 

 

I meant the absurdity of the Trek episode was how badly they mangled the message that was intended to be about homosexuality by portraying a hetero relationship with an alien who saw herself as female, played by a woman. Not that the false-equivalency you pointed out that being LGBT automatically means someone cannot be incapable of discrimination either.

 

You just have to look at the awful excuses given by the creators of Glee and Two Broke Girls for that kind of argument, who've denied accusations of racism because as gay writers, they "understood what it was like to be discriminated against"... despite the fact that ethnic stereotyping was rampant in Glee and is pretty much half of Two Broke Girls entire schtick.

 

Apologies for that slight tangent, but you were right in saying that discrimination can come from anywhere and be directed at anyone, regardless of who they are or what group they belong to.

[Dean_the_Young]

We had that in Legion of Super-Heroes, come to think of it. Turned out that Shvaugn had always been an MTF transsexual; it was only revealed when a war disrupted the supply of Pro-Fem and she had to transition back. Fortunately, her boyfriend was OK with being his boyfriend. (Though DC's such a free-fire zone for retcons that this entire continuity has been erased.)

Of course, having the transition require continual doses of medication was the contrivance which allowed them to have the story. I don't see how ME could get away with that.

 

Having the discovery of the genitilia issue be the drama would be my recommendation. To make a proposal...

 

Imagine we have a woman. Introduced as a woman, treated as a woman, breasts of a woman. You and I know that we're discussing a trans-woman, but the player wouldn't. Really the only indication that's anything different is that there would be a separate female love interest- which, if you metagame, might raise an eyebrow if you expect there to be balanced male/female love interests.

 

But we have our woman. She may even be part of our field team. She's capable, competent, attractive, and of good moral character. She's a bit private- shy even- and maybe she keeps to herself, but so what? Privacy may be a premium on a ship, but some people still want to contribute.

 

So you get to know her. You decide you like her. And you flirt- and she's flattered, but resistant. Modestly so, but again she is flattered, and eventually flirts back. You feel a chemistry, a tension, and you make a move... and she refuses you. There are Reasons- mature reasons, she loves her job and doesn't want to rock it, she warns that she isn't the sort of woman who have a family with you- but she can't deny an attraction. Things stall, holding, as mutual attraction is established but she doesn't want to let you too close. Warmth, affection, but reservation.

 

Then, in a part of the plot similar to Virmire, she's wounded... and in the course of treating her, you find out. You might not if you weren't romancing her- the doctor provides privacy, the squadmates who would take her seeing no need to share the truth- but you are in a Romance! You're worried, you take her to the medics yourself, and she's desperate and dazed and begging you to leave her. To let her die the woman you loved. You refuse, of course, because you love her. She makes no sense, until it does, because you stayed beside her and now question if you want to stay beside 'her' now.

 

Then you have your drama. Most relationships have the drama before the expression of interest- let this one be after, to test if you meant what you said. Warnings gain new meaning in hindsight, and drama and questions of if she deceived you- and the player can make their choice, be it a poor showing or a respectful divergence or true commitment despite the confusion.

 

That'd be my recommendation- a trans romance, where the trans person isn't a token or broadcasting that they're trans, but merely expressing what they are and are trying to be.

[Dean_the_Young]

 

Apologies for that slight tangent, but you were right in saying that discrimination can come from anywhere and be directed at anyone, regardless of who they are or what group they belong to.

 

As an unreformed geek, I was always amused (and used to be angry) when people told me that I didn't understand what it was like to be ostracized.

 

There are certainly different kinds of discrimination, and far be it from me to try and claim priority, but they way some people talked about it my privilege meant I never had to deal with the human condition.

[Han Shot First]

Krem should be referred to as a guy and with masculine pronouns, fixed this for you in the above quote. Slips of the tongue can and do happen when discussing this topic, it's normal... only when it's done intentionally do trans people tend to find it a tad offensive. You got in spot on in the part of the post I didn't quote, when you referred to Mae properly as she.

 

(Sorry, thought I'd point it out for those who might not know, rather than meaning to sound as if I'm complaining or being pedantic.)

 

Sorry, that was inadvertent. I think that happened because I associate the character with Jennifer Hale. Maeveris has no VA yet, so it was easier to not to slip up with her.

[Sifr]

Sorry, that was inadvertent. I think that happened because I associate the character with Jennifer Hale. Maeveris has no VA yet, so it was easier to not to slip up with her.

 

No worries, I've had to go back and quickly change some posts because I've slipped up when talking about Krem from time to time.

 

It's probably because we're all so used to Jennifer Hale playing female characters, that we subconsciously end up thinking of her (Jen Hale's) voice when thinking about Krem, rather than the character's voice belonging to him.

 

I bet even Krem would probably end up having similar pronoun confusion if he ever played ME or KOTOR, confronted with FemShep and Bastila's voice both sounding precisely like his, with some minor differences in pitch and accent.

[Puddi III]

That'd be my recommendation- a trans romance, where the trans person isn't a token or broadcasting that they're trans, but merely expressing what they are and are trying to be.

 
I'm not sure making drama based on 'questions of if she deceived you' for a trans character is perhaps the most sensitive way one could include a trans romance in the game.

[Fredward]

Just out of curiosity if a transgender party member/NPC/LI WAS included what would it take for people to not  see that character as shoehorned in to appease the almighty gods of PC?

[Dean_the_Young]

 
I'm not sure making drama based on 'questions of if she deceived you' for a trans character is perhaps the most sensitive way one could include a trans romance in the game.

 

The opposite of telling someone something is not telling them- and the common term for 'not telling something important that could significantly change their opinion' is 'lie of omission.' As a role-playing perspective, I'm not sure how, or why, you'd avoid that as an option- the player is led to have an assumption, and she doesn't dissuade you. If you think I was implying that should be an unavoidable response, I'll apologize for not being clear, but if you think even raising the idea is insensitive, I'd disagree.

 

If we accept that this is a romance of enough maturity where genetilia would matter, then the genetilia- or lack thereof- will matter to someone seeking a serious relationship. Transition and hormone treatment add, not take away, body parts. Unless we change that- through magic or space magic Science- then genetilia are a pretty significant thing for making an informed decision about what sort of relationship you might want with a person.

 

The tradeoff of someone who doesn't broadcast that they're trans is that lack of information for an informed choice. For a straight man who might be interested in a serious relationship, there is no (and I'd argue should be no) expectation that they should be unquestionably accepting of a dick just because the person who has it feels they are a woman and let them believe the same. Accepting someone else's transition of gender identity should not force or in any way imply that you yourself must change your own sexual orientation on the spot lest you be some kind of insensitive bigot.

 

Feeling deceived- that you were led on, or that you weren't given a real answer as to why not- is certainly an understandable emotional response to come to terms with and explore. It doesn't have to be the only one, and I wouldn't want it to be, but it's not an 'insenstive' point either.

[Sartoz]

Snip

   Until that goes away (i.e. never), this kind of data will never accurately represent the total percentage of LGBT people.

Snip

                          

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The retards that published a study and admitting their methodology was flawed are... retards.

 

On the other hand, while your point regarding accuracy is technically correct, the percentage of error may be irrelevant for the purpose of obtaining accurate numbers. Specifically, I point out, oh, the ubiquitous polls regarding who is ahead in the American presidential elections. Those numbers are accurate but with a +/- percentage deviation. I suspect the same with the numbers in the study. 

 

The important question is the percentage of +/- deviation.  So, what I see is 3.8% are out in the open while x% remain in the closet. Does the amount of 3.8% + x% =  < 5%  or >5% ? 

[Sartoz]

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Why this thread even exists is mind boggling.

[Dean_the_Young]

Just out of curiosity if a transgender party member/NPC/LI WAS included what would it take for people to not see that character as shoehorned in to appease the almighty gods of PC?

 

Probably a character plot with themes not tailor made for transgender debate.

 

Some people find any attention to be too much, and some think it's tokenism if you have a character who doesn't make that aspect a part of their personality, but I actually disagree. I prefer minority characters with character arcs that are universal- something anyone can empathize with.

 

One reason I really, really like Steve Cortez in ME3 was because his wasn't the story of 'the struggles of a gay man.' His story was 'dealing with grief' and 'loss of a loved one.' Any widower, any widow, or anyone who's lost a significant other to conflict could relate. The friendship and romance arcs went hand in hand- of offering empathetic comfort to someone who suffered from loss. It wasn't loss unique to a gay man, or some exclusive discrimination. It was something anyone, of any orientation, could relate to.

 

For a trans character, any regular story would be sufficiently humanizing. I'm not hot or cold for Krem- I just felt Krem didn't have much of a character outside of Iron Bull- but even if you do want to express the 'torn between identities' aspect of a trans-character... I'd recommend you use another conflict of identity as your metaphor. A conflict of loyalties, a conflict of identity groups- 'am I X or am I Y,' or 'I was this, I am now that'- can provide an empathizing parallel and sort of transition that others can relate to.

[10K]

Just out of curiosity if a transgender party member/NPC/LI WAS included what would it take for people to not  see that character as shoehorned in to appease the almighty gods of PC?

For me, I wouldn't want them being transgender to defined them as a character. Let me elaborate: I don't what to know that character is in fact transgender just out of the blue. Basically if I am not close to that character at all (i.e I'm not romancing them) there shouldn't be a reason I find out they are transgender. I don't want an entire bio on why they are trans, unless I decide to  press them with questions about it. A simple "I'm trans, are you okay with that?" is enough. 

[daveliam]

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The retards that published a study and admitting their methodology was flawed are... retards.

 

On the other hand, while your point regarding accuracy is technically correct, the percentage of error may be irrelevant for the purpose of obtaining accurate numbers. Specifically, I point out, oh, the ubiquitous polls regarding who is ahead in the American presidential elections. Those numbers are accurate but with a +/- percentage deviation. I suspect the same with the numbers in the study. 

 

The important question is the percentage of +/- deviation.  So, what I see is 3.8% are out in the open while x% remain in the closet. Does the amount of 3.8% + x% =  < 5%  or >5% ? 

 

True.  In their defense, I do understand why they do studies like this.  It does give us a baseline.  And, in good practice, they acknowledged the limitations of their study and specifically urged people not to generalize the numbers the way that people on BSN feel compelled to. 

 

And, yes, what we need to determine is +/- (realistically, just a + in this case since it's highly unlikely that straight people would identify as gay, whether on purpose or in error, in greater numbers than the opposite).  And I genuinely have no idea what % would be.  There are studies that report anywhere from 1%-40%.  So......yeah.  I think it's safe to say that this number won't be nailed down anytime soon. 

 

Probably a character plot with themes not tailor made for transgender debate.

 

Some people find any attention to be too much, and some think it's tokenism if you have a character who doesn't make that aspect a part of their personality, but I actually disagree. I prefer minority characters with character arcs that are universal- something anyone can empathize with.

 

One reason I really, really like Steve Cortez in ME3 was because his wasn't the story of 'the struggles of a gay man.' His story was 'dealing with grief' and 'loss of a loved one.' Any widower, any widow, or anyone who's lost a significant other to conflict could relate. The friendship and romance arcs went hand in hand- of offering empathetic comfort to someone who suffered from loss. It wasn't loss unique to a gay man, or some exclusive discrimination. It was something anyone, of any orientation, could relate to.

 

For a trans character, any regular story would be sufficiently humanizing. I'm not hot or cold for Krem- I just felt Krem didn't have much of a character outside of Iron Bull- but even if you do want to express the 'torn between identities' aspect of a trans-character... I'd recommend you use another conflict of identity as your metaphor. A conflict of loyalties, a conflict of identity groups- 'am I X or am I Y,' or 'I was this, I am now that'- can provide an empathizing parallel and sort of transition that others can relate to.

 

But there were (and still are) people who say that Steve was a "token" character and that his entire story revolved around his being gay.  You just can't win. You are correct that in a very vocal minority's opinion any attention is too much.

[daveliam]

For me, I wouldn't want them being transgender defined them as a character. Let me elaborate: I don't what to know that character is in fact transgender just out of the blue. Basically if I am not close to that character at all (i.e I'm not romancing them) there shouldn't be a reason I find out they are transgender. I don't want an entire bio on why they are trans, unless I decide to  press them with questions about it. A simple "I'm trans, are you okay with that?" is enough. 

 

I agree that it shouldn't be one of the first things we know about a character because that seems....odd.  Just unlikely to happen.  I'm not sure if I agree that it has to be tied to romance content.  I've been friends (mostly friendly acquaintances, really) with several trans people (mostly transmen, coincidentally) in real life.  I've never romanced any of them, but I've known that they are trans.  It can totally come up in a natural way with a friend, and not just a "close friend".

[Dean_the_Young]

But there were (and still are) people who say that Steve was a "token" character and that his entire story revolved around his being gay.  You just can't win. You are correct that in a very vocal minority's opinion any attention is too much.

 

And?

 

If we accept that it's a minority who feel any attention is too much, we can safely disregard them if we determine that their disapproval is not, in and of itself, a veto. For people who are determined to be unhappy, their happiness ceases to be a consideration- nothing we do will appease them, short of things we are not willing to do, so compromise is impossible.

 

In which case- so what? We aim our considerations at those willing to be worked with, not absolutists. I'm no more beholden to those who believe any presence is too much than I am to those who believe any character flaw of a minority is proof of bigotry.