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TL;DR: If Dean Made a Dragon Age Game


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#26
vbibbi

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It'd be a full game concept.
 
Conceptually it'd link DAI and DA4 in the same way ME2 links ME1 and ME3: a danger is introduced, and a new crisis is related to it, but ultimately the new crisis isn't terribly important to the still-looming danger.


Okay, got it. You had referenced DA4 which made me think this was an interquel game rather than a full one. But given the scope and cast size it does make more sense as a full game.

This is the kind of game I'd prefer all DA games to be: impactful and relevant to the overall mythos, but focused on politics and characters rather than ancient magic and monsters. It's why I liked so much of DA2 despite its warts and why I found a lot of the elements in DAI to be disappointing. And the Rivain setting provides so many different cultures to explore and you've linked it to current events resulting from DAI (Circle and College) and bring back some of the feel of DAO, in visiting various factions.
 

I agree- and there'd be more potential love interests amongst the Caravan. I just didn't flesh them out because, well, they weren't a part of the core cast it was getting long enough as it was.
 
There's conceptual space for 6 love intersts, 4 from the companion cast and at least 2 from the Caravan non-companion cast, with at least two options for every sexuality.
 
Straight Male: Dalish
Bisexual Male: Saarebas
Gay Male: TBD- possibly the Minstrel
Straight Female: Warden Mage
Bisexual Female: TBD- had an idea for a refugee
Gay Female: LKISA
 
That'd give two male and two female options for every character, which I would think would be more than fair, and only require two non-companion support characters, which is easy.


Got it, and I think you did mention that and I forgot. I had no problem with Josie and Cullen (or Steve and Samantha) as LIs so this also works for me. Plus it's nice to have variety and not have every LI be combat-oriented in some way.
 

The Minstrel would definitely be an option- and would be amusing as a potential future love interest, since on intent is that he's the sort who runs off at the end, rather than a true commitment.
 
The bisexual female... I was tempted to say the pirate or first mate of the ship, but that might seem a bit too much like Isabella. Tev's assistant was another, but I had the feeling that having Yet Another information broker/diplomat be relegated to a female love interest might be a bit trite at this point.


Yeah, you can't have the KISA finally but then fall back on the roguish bisexual female ;)
 
 

Agreed. (Unsuprisingly.)


I should hope so.
 

Plus, it has the benefit of 'the world doesn't die if the PC walks away'. DAO has to deal with the fact you can never flee the Blight, but by being the Fugitive, the Fall Plan works. Even in a 'bad' end, there's still sufficient space that the world doesn't go to hell and Solas can still be stopped in DA4. Which could conveniently go 'there's political turmoil in Rivaini', and be appropriately vague.


Yeah it was an interesting thought process of the failed world states of the Fugitive running off to the Dalish/Carta/Wardens/Qun. Probably not the most realistic use of game development resources, but good from a narrative perspective.

I can only hope Bioware still visits these boards sometimes and blatantly plagiarize some of your ideas. If you're okay with your ideas being used without getting monetary compensation for them...



#27
Dean_the_Young

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My favorite is the Saarebas, through and through. I shed a few tears reading the romance as well. Like, ****, this character doesn't exist outside of our heads and he is already making my eyes wet. Damn. I need him to be real!!

 

 

Really? Huh. I find the ending sweet, but I was concerned that there might be worrying undertones of domestic abuse. Like, if he has an outburst and hits/hurts the Fugitive- something to show that he really isn't in control or a harmless overgrown puppy- even if he's apologetic and sincrely regretful, some people would see 'abusive relationship.' Some might be 'okay, he deserves sympathy and support to overcome, not condemnation for something he can't control,' but others might see Unfortunate Implications in it- especially if there might never be a 'totally stable' place. Like it was expecting the player to go 'okay, I'm expected to go forward with a potentially abusive relationship.'

 

Which is fine- role play is role play, and the player breaking off the relationship then and there would be a definite catalyst to make him choose Tranquility of his own volition- but... well I thought it concerning, at least. It'd need to be done carefully.

 

 

 

Just a though: I'd personally love a gay male companion who isn't romanceable by the PC, but instead already has a boyfriend or has the possibility of romancing someone else in the game. Possibly not even a companion, but an NPC that ties to his story. I think the Saarebas would be enough for me (literally everything I want in a romance), I wouldn't need another option (but I'm sure someone else might lol).

 

 

Personally, I've always wanted to see a Bioware love interest set up for two different PC protagonists. Think if Leliana were romanceable in DAI, regardless of DAO status. Something that'd be this weird mix of cheating and meta-faithfulness, because they're different people (PCs), but the same person (the player).

 

The Minstrel would be a good set-up for that. Minstrels already have a reputation for being players and heart-breakers, so the idea of him leaving you at the end- just like everyone else he said sweet nothings to- would be bitter-sweet. That something special you had... was it that special? Bitter for the departure, obviously, but with a sweet token of affection before he does.

 

It'd offer some unique opportunities for the sequel, where he's once again a love interest, only now the player has a personal knowledge that he's a player. How do you approach him? And how is he changed- because what if he does have lingering feelings for the first PC, and left love for duty? What if he's the one who's conflicted with the new flame? And if he didn't have a relationship the first time around, what if he Really Means It this time- would the PC trust him? Would the player forgive him, even if they're supposedly someone 'else' this time?

 

I think you could get a nice one-two with that- especially if he leave the second PC to go back to the first. Story quality aside, the fan drama alone would be epic.



#28
SgtSteel91

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Great piece!

I liked the nuances you put into the companions, giving them flaws while providing opportunities to grow through the personal quests.

#29
Witch Cocktor

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Ugh, I did something and the whole wall of text I wrote disappeared. URGH.

 

Anyway, about the Fugitive x Saarebas relationship being abusive: I don't think so. The Fugitive would know Saarebas enough to know what they are getting themselves into. The Fugitive probably wouldn't be a scaredy cat and afraid of Saarebas' emotional fits, but they'd be understanding and willing to lend a helping hand, would Saarebas require it. I'd be more concerned with it seeming like the relationship would be too one-sided: Saarebas being so in love with the Fugitive while Fugitive kind of shrugs and strings him along because of lulz and because he is easily manipulated with the promise of hugs and kisses.

 

But alas, I doubt that's the relationship you wanted to write, and even if you did, would that be so wrong? Abusive, manipulative, unhealthy relationships aren't banned from entertainment, and should be written as much as healthy and loving ones. As long as they are written well, everything's fair.

 

----

 

About the minstrel romance. I find it interesting but I have several problems:

 

1. You play the romance once, why would you then consider playing it again? You might now comment that '' Solas '' which yes, Solas' romance exists and people love it and play it again and again. The difference is that Solas is a big plot point in the future games and it only makes sense for him to leave his lovers side, and Solas does seem very upset about the whole thing. Solas didn't think he'd fall in love, but he did, and he had to let the Inquisitor go, and it kills him inside (I bet). He'll be extremely important in the future games, that's why the romance works. You'll have to give the minstrel a good reason to leave, a goal, something that'll give him a reason to be in the next game indefinitely. And no, '' I am afraid of love and commitment '' really isn't enough.

 

2. So, let's say the minstrel does have a goal. Now, why the heck would he be romanceable in DA5? If he is so goal-driven that he'd drive away the man that loved him fiercely, why would he be suddenly up for grabs in the next game? So now that he is ready to romance, why wouldn't he go back to the Fugitive? What makes the next PC so damn irresistible that he trumps even his former lover? A relationship he ended because of his own goals? I don't know son... I mean, the drama is there and I could see it being interesting, but interesting isn't enough for me. Fanwars isn't a good motivation either.

 

3. Minstrel goes back to the Fugitive. That would be kinda bollocks because we can't be the Fugitive and play through that segment ourselves, where we finally get our guy. No, we have to watch that from the DA5 PC's perspective. The man the Fugitive loves and has patiently waited to return FINALLY RETURNS, and we can't even get to experience it as the Fugitive? No thank you.

 

4. The gay male option being taken in DA5 by the gay male option in DA4 (who broke your damn heart, too)? Yeah, idk.

 

While the concept is interesting, it kind of... eh, there's just way too many problems. I think for this to work, there should be different outcomes to the romance. One where you convince him to stay with you, one where you join him in his journey, one where you dump him (thus being available for romance in DA5). It'd also be pretty great if you could include the '' leaves you for reasons '' thing, and then he comes back in a DLC where you'll make your final decision regarding your realtionship, kind of like in DA2 with Fenris. 

 

I'm not sure how this would translate to DA5 and him being a companion again, but eh, I think it could work.



#30
Dean_the_Young

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Great piece!

I liked the nuances you put into the companions, giving them flaws while providing opportunities to grow through the personal quests.

 

Personal rule of thumb: every character should have some reason for some other (reasonable) person to not like them.

 

Often a failing of overly 'nice' or sympathetic characters. If Dalish didn't have elf issues or an opposition to Chantry reforms, it'd be easy to see him as the victimiest of victims (being a minority of an oppressed minority). If Saarebas didn't have mood swings, he might be too reasonable and victimized to be worrying. If Seer...

 

Well, personally I think Seer needs to grow up, and she does, but some might not see that as a flaw. But you get the idea.


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#31
Dean_the_Young

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Ugh, I did something and the whole wall of text I wrote disappeared. URGH.

 

Anyway, about the Fugitive x Saarebas relationship being abusive: I don't think so. The Fugitive would know Saarebas enough to know what they are getting themselves into. The Fugitive probably wouldn't be a scaredy cat and afraid of Saarebas' emotional fits, but they'd be understanding and willing to lend a helping hand, would Saarebas require it. I'd be more concerned with it seeming like the relationship would be too one-sided: Saarebas being so in love with the Fugitive while Fugitive kind of shrugs and strings him along because of lulz and because he is easily manipulated with the promise of hugs and kisses.

 

But alas, I doubt that's the relationship you wanted to write, and even if you did, would that be so wrong? Abusive, manipulative, unhealthy relationships aren't banned from entertainment, and should be written as much as healthy and loving ones. As long as they are written well, everything's fair.

 

Eh, it's a concern of unintended perceptions- totally intending there to be an element of concern involved. Like you say, the player should already have an idea of what they're getting involved in, mood swings and all.

 

Though yeah, I'd probably not write a relationship with the PC being exploitative. Aside from being a lot more work, Saarebas would probably burn everything down.

 

(Though if there ever were an exploitative PC romance... I'd probably cast it as against a naive noble. Someone you could milk for a cause, and then abandon when their worth was gone.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

----

 

 

About the minstrel romance. I find it interesting but I have several problems:

 

1. You play the romance once, why would you then consider playing it again? You might now comment that '' Solas '' which yes, Solas' romance exists and people love it and play it again and again. The difference is that Solas is a big plot point in the future games and it only makes sense for him to leave his lovers side, and Solas does seem very upset about the whole thing. Solas didn't think he'd fall in love, but he did, and he had to let the Inquisitor go, and it kills him inside (I bet). He'll be extremely important in the future games, that's why the romance works. You'll have to give the minstrel a good reason to leave, a goal, something that'll give him a reason to be in the next game indefinitely. And no, '' I am afraid of love and commitment '' really isn't enough.

 

 

 

First I'd say that people would come to different conclusions as you on what's interesting, and second I'd say that I don't think romances should necessarily be planned with the intent of playing them over and over again. Most people don't replay a game once, and when they do it's with another character and another LI.

 

But most of all I'd say that there'd be enough hints that there were genuine feelings that some might hold out.

 

So Minstrel's a spy working for the divine, right? So while he has a prolific, care-free reputation, he's actually serious. Duty bound. Leaving you might not be a matter of flippancy- it might be a matter of duty, something so important and secret he can't tell you, even as he leaves. He can't even tell you he can't tell you- because the moment he blows his cover saving the monarch- showing that he's actually this super-skilled assassin of sorts- he has to leave at the first opportunity. Slips away, and never returns.

 

Except, if you romance him, he leaves you something. Not an explanation, but something with meaning- a poem from before that hints at a reason, or a momento for you to keep- and so while he leaves, you might be angry, or you might wonder if there was something. Or you might wonder if he's still leading you on.

 

It'd be ambiguous, which appeals to some people.
 

 

2. So, let's say the minstrel does have a goal. Now, why the heck would he be romanceable in DA5? If he is so goal-driven that he'd drive away the man that loved him fiercely, why would he be suddenly up for grabs in the next game? So now that he is ready to romance, why wouldn't he go back to the Fugitive? What makes the next PC so damn irresistible that he trumps even his former lover? A relationship he ended because of his own goals? I don't know son... I mean, the drama is there and I could see it being interesting, but interesting isn't enough for me. Fanwars isn't a good motivation either.

 

Why not be open to another relationship if his job doesn't prevent it? Especially if the new flame somehow reminds him of the old flame (cause, you know, PC)?

 

For an analogy, imagine you're in the army. You move around often. The military life may make you move often- but that doesn't keep you from starting a relationship at your new place while you can, even if duty might move you once more.

 

So Minstrel meets the Fugitive because of his job. Has a relationship while his job doesn't prevent it. Leaves the relationship because his job demands it, even if he does it with regrets. No Minstrel meets new PC because of his job. Job still doesn't prevent a new relationship. It may prevent it in the future- but that just means Minstrel has to be prepared to end it again. Or it may not- in which case, Minstrel now has the opportunity to make a choice, if his job no longer prevents any relationship, and you know what? Maybe he does feel bad about he left the last one. Maybe he wants to settle that.

 

He's a character with a rough job.

 

 

3. Minstrel goes back to the Fugitive. That would be kinda bollocks because we can't be the Fugitive and play through that segment ourselves, where we finally get our guy. No, we have to watch that from the DA5 PC's perspective. The man the Fugitive loves and has patiently waited to return FINALLY RETURNS, and we can't even get to experience it as the Fugitive? No thank you.

 

 

And this is the fan tears I'd love to drink.

 

More seriously- you'd leave it ambiguous. If the Fugitive does appear in DA5 (which he might not), you'd play coy with the relationship status. The Fugitive wouldn't be the PC, and so you'd leave it to headcanon- so that the player, who only gets a glimpse of the Fugitive, can headcanon however they want the reunion to go.

 

Maybe it's good? Maybe the Fugitive says take a hike. Ambiguity.

 

 

 

 

 

4. The gay male option being taken in DA5 by the gay male option in DA4 (who broke your damn heart, too)? Yeah, idk.

 

 

 

Honestly, I'd prefer him to be a bisexual romance. Nice even numbers doesn't make that stack well with Saarebas- who could work as a male-only, in a Qun-love sort of way, but who I imagine would miss out on some Florence Nightingale dynamics with female characters.

 

I mean, that doesn't change the dynamic of 'same spot is taken by the same character'- but that's inherent.

 

 

While the concept is interesting, it kind of... eh, there's just way too many problems. I think for this to work, there should be different outcomes to the romance. One where you convince him to stay with you, one where you join him in his journey, one where you dump him (thus being available for romance in DA5). It'd also be pretty great if you could include the '' leaves you for reasons '' thing, and then he comes back in a DLC where you'll make your final decision regarding your realtionship, kind of like in DA2 with Fenris. 

 

I'm not sure how this would translate to DA5 and him being a companion again, but eh, I think it could work.

 

Kinda defeats the premise. It'd be like romancing Anders but having the option to remove Justice, or fixing Saarebas's emotions. It's fundamental to the concept- a Love Interest who's a potential interest to two different PCs because he leaves the first one, and you learn a different side of him the second time.

 

It's not like the second time would necessarily be the same dynamic as the first, after all. No more than Solas as a villain will be portrayed the same way as Solas the companion and love interest.

 

 

To get what I'm thinking at... I guess I'll have to sketch out the concept.

 

 

The Minstrel romance, coming up!



#32
Hellion Rex

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Currently rereading the Dalish/Human guy's character arc, and I'm really find myself resonating with it now. I really like how he has to deal with a hard crisis of identity, which is a theme I really like seeing explored. Kind of split between two world, and has to decide which he would like to settle in.



#33
Dean_the_Young

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The Minstrel-Harlequin Romance

 

The 2 Game Two-Timer (but only with you)

 

 

Romance character. Male, open for males, intended bisexual.

 

 

Minstrel has two romances- the 'first impression' of DDA, his first appearance, and the second arcin... let's call it DA4. There's the player impression, what they see and think the first time, and then there's the meta knowledge- who he actually is, what his actual reasons are. It's key to understand that the player perspective doesn't necessarily get to see the meta.

 

For purposes of first impressions, I'll summarize the player perspective, then the meta angle.

 

-

 

DDA Romance: The Rivaini Incident

 

Minstrel is introduced early in the game as a minor NPC caught up in bad times. Quite possible taken prisoner by the same slavers who captured Seer, whom the player has to rescue with LKISA and Tevinter Templar, Minstrel is a innocent wanderer who just got caught up in the wrong time and place. He's freed by association, he hears the story, and he wants to tag along- because he's umployed, traveling with a Caravan sounds like a good gig, and surely this would make a great story?

 

With no good reason to refuse, so the Minstrel accompanies. He sings at camp, flirts shamelessly, and is soon slotted as a harmless cad. Doubtless he's said sweet words to many- just as he's saying them now- but he's good with a lute and provides some entertainment at night and finds a place as he proclaims he's just a random minstrel.

 

He isn't, of course- and we can feel very impressed and our faith in Tevinter Templar's network validated when he uncovers that the Minstrel is an Orlesian Bard. Everyone knows Orlesian Bards are spies, but this one is just so bad at it- he's just so obvious, the only Orlesian bard in fathoms- that it's hard to take him as a threat. Especially at his earnest defense- yes, he learned a song or two from a bard, but that hardly makes him an apprentice to a spy master, right? Surely there are bards out there who just enjoy the life of a wandering singer of songs?

 

And that's what he is for the game. He stays with camp, he helps in small ways, he offers a shoulder and a song to any who need it. He listens to people talk- he sets the mood when important scenes are happening- he listens some more...

 

But nothing bad ever comes of it. He doesn't sell out the Fugitive to authorities. He keeps confidence. And, what do you know it, but he proves faithful and true when he is alone and pressed by authorities. Authorities who demand his cooperation, demand to know of the fugitive and threatening steel and offering gold if he cooperates. Authorities who he, in his typical way, lies his way out of even before he knows of your presence. This is the Minstrel you can get to know, and the one you can flirt back with. He's witty, he's charming, and flattery flows easily from his lips as music from his lyre.

 

But he doesn't just listen- he supports you. When the Fugitive is hunted, he sings a song of daring wanted men who happen to be innocent. When the Fugitive has to make Big Decisions, he listens and lets you justify yourself, why you did what you did. He offers you confidence- and when his secret is revealed, if you believe his words that he has no ulterior motives for you (except the ones you want)... if you believe him, if you take that flirt option, he confides in you.

 

Confides of a life with no family and few friends. Confides about the lonely road of a minstrel, never staying in one place long. A man who, in his own small way, wanted to help people and make strangers smile in the only way he knew how. Of a life torn between love of music and loving the duty to spread it, but neither being half as beautiful as You.

 

The romance is set, the minstrel is your paramore. He sees you off on each quest with well wishes, and waits anxious for your next return and the chance to make sweet music together. And when the finale approaches, he's there for you the night before- wishing you well, wanting you safe and hoping nothing ever changes between the two of you, and daring to give you a trinket. Half a token of affection, which is half more of a commitment he's never made for anyone else. He'll keep the other half, and will always hold you close.

 

He's there for you, right where he should be the night before. And then he's there, where he has no business being, the day of. He's in the castle, amongs the coup, he could get hurt. He's reckless, daring to be dashing but filling with worry, urging you forward. You go. You confront the magister's forces. You hear that his plan is already in motion- that the Qunari will mercilessly kill all between them and the Monarch, your lover to. You rush, to save the King, to save your man...

 

And find a room full of dead Qunari before his feet, where he stands between them and the Monarch, catching a thrown weapon and returning it in a lethal acrobatic feat. A feat of lethality no peaceful Minstrel should ever be capable of.

 

But he's not the Minstrel. He's the Harlequin. He talks different, acts different. Is recognized by the Monarch as an agent of the Divine. He tells you that there's no time- the Magister has to be stopped, before it's too late. He'll explain everything later. He loves you.

 

And then he vanishes, before you return. No one saw him leave, but he left you even so. The Monarch doesn't know- only that the Divine sent  a hidden hand on the scale. Tevinter Templar apologizes- he had suspicions, but no proof, hadn't wanted to assume and assume wrong if the Fugitive was happy...

 

The Fugitive's hand wraps around the token still around their neck. Half a token. Half of a pair.

 

Maybe they tear it off. Maybe they don't. Player's choice.

 

There's an epilogue slide, of course. Two, really. One of a minstrel making his way east, to Tevinter- singing merry songs, seemingly without a care in the world. And another of the same- but singing the same song as the night of culmination, of a man torn between love and duty, and neither as beautiful as you.

 

End Part 1

 

/

 

Begin Part 2

 

Dragon Age 4: The Tevinter One

 

Not even approaching a plot synopsis here. It takes place in Tevinter, the Inquisition is searching for Solas, but the PC is their own factor with their own reasons. Their goals happen to align with the Chantry, and friends of friends who are friends with the Inquisition have a potential ally.

 

He's the Harlequin this time. No lies, no deceit- little point of it this time, his cover's been blown by the Agents of Solas who are everywhere. Word's already spread from Rivaini. He wears an Orlesian mask, but you know who he is. The mask is just to conspicuously draw attention, so that when he leaves no one will remember the man beneath.

 

This is the real him, or the other him- the man who loves duty even more than music, and who helps people in the only way he knows how: by killing the worst and putting on a show for the rest. He acts a different man and if you don't get too close you may believe that. Even as a friend, a companion, he's not a caddish minstrel- he's a killer, a spy, he knows the Game and he plays it very well no matter what his circumstance. He'll prove it, to, if you want.

 

That's the lead to the romance- the decision to be entertained by an Orlesian Bard when you know it's an Orlesian Bard, one who's job is to entertain and seduce even the most wary of hosts. That's part of the charm, the excitement. All it requires is a bit of trust.

 

Maybe you have it. Maybe you don't. If you don't- if you adamantly refuse- obviously a relationship wouldn't work in the first place. Nothing ventured nothing gained. But if you do- or perhaps, if you just need some little bit of truth, something sincere to believe in...

 

Would you believe he regrets leaving behind everyone in the end? That he regrets leaving behind you? Not you, the PC, but you, the Fugitive.

 

He'll explain it, if asked. His cover was compromised. The Agents of Solas were all around, and haste was necessary- he didn't have time to tell you that he couldn't tell you what he wouldn't tell you. Any lingering connection could have raised the Fugitive from an Annoyance to an Obstacle, something that could have brought Agents of Solas to target the Fugitive. He didn't want that, didn't want You caught up in the Game with stakes such as these. Fleeing protected You. He would have left anyway, true- duty called, and he's faithful to the Divine and her cause- but he didn't want to. He never wants to, but he does anyway because there are things more important than one person's desires, and You are strong and can find love with someone else if You want to.

 

It may be hard. It may be weary. But it's true- as is his openness to the PC's interest. He regrets leaving, he misses them still, but he'll no more live a life of regretful misery any more than he'd want the Fugitive to. There's no lie, no misdirection this time- he's hear for duty, and he'll likely leave for duty. He'd change that if he could- go back if he could- but he can't. But if you can accept that- if You want to get to know him better anyway- to spend some brief time of happiness together with him- You can.

 

That's the relationship the PC can enter this time around. A temporary dalliance, expected to end from the start, but no less sincere for it. It's for relief, for mutual comfort and support, for kind gestures and encouraging slight smiles as the two of you do what you both do best. Fight, and change things, and hopefully make the world a better place. It's a redemption of sort, for at least one man who feels guilty.

 

The honesty is refreshing. It's different. He's no longer putting on a facade he wished was true, wanted to be true. He's honest, and you accept that, and he thanks you for it. You remind him of You, for a reason he can't explain as he reminisces about traveling with the Fugitive. Sharing honest tidbits of past companions and friends, and of course what he remembers of You. But you're not You anymore- you're the PC. And he likes you too. He kisses you, and if You want it a different sort of music is made. It's not just sex and seduction anymore- it's personal, private, intimate.

 

It might be love. If you take off his mask, to see him once more, it might well be, even if half a pendent dangles from his chest.

 

It'd be easy to forget this is a temporary arrangement. It'd be easy to pretend it could last forever- until you can't, until you can again. Because eventually Duty no longer applies- the Harlequin is released from service, cut off from the Divine, has no other master to serve. Perhaps it is a cold calculation for plausible deniability. Mayhaps it's a reward for services rendered, an offer for a new life. And perhaps it's a mercy- an apology for years taken and hearts broken, and opportunity for a man to live for himself. What does it matter? He has no Duty keeping him here. But he also has no Duty taking him away.

 

This is the crux of the Harlequin's finale- a man no longer bound by duty and obligation, free to go where he wants. Where he said he always wanted to go back to.

 

Do you remember how he said he regrets leaving, and would go back to You if he could?

 

And that's the crux of it, an order of precedence. Complete honest and yet a surprise once again, as meaningful words from earlier can come back to haunt You.

 

If the Harlequin is never romanced, he disappears. Perhaps he had a long lost love somewhere he was returning to. Occasionally a Minstrel is seen traveling the countryside, unafraid of bandits prowling the area, singing of his love of music and making hard-pressed people smile.

 

But if the Harlequin was romanced by the Fugitive, he also disappears. He leaves his mask behind- a momento for you to remember him by, but a single thing. Not a half. He goes, and searches for the one he loved first and regretted leaving. He might regret you, but You always knew this was coming, that this was a temporary thing, didn't you? Tales differ on what happened next, but You can decide for yourself. Maybe he was forgiven. Maybe he wasn't. Maybe he came crawling back afterwards and the PC faced the same choice. Ironic how that seems to happen, isn't it?

 

And if only the PC romanced the Fugitive, he stays. Why wouldn't he? What you had is real. And he's always been faithful to You.

 

 

/

 

The Meta

 

What actually happened in all that?

 

The Minstrel is actually the Harlequin- the elite bards of Orlais. Famed for their prowess in not just subertfuge but in fighting, they serve the nobility, always hiding behind masks of one sort of another. Bards are renowned for tricking the very lords who invite them in expecting to be tricked. Harlequins manage to hide in plain sight, despite the most Orlesian of finery.

 

Harlequin happens to work for the Chantry. The highest levels of the Chantry. The bard he learned a song or two from, the spy master he joked he needn't be serving under as an Orlesian bard? Leliana. The Harlequin, while not a Hand of the Divine proper, may well be the hidden hand. He's certainly serving on her behalf as he was sent to investigate the instability in Rivaini.

 

Not everything was part of some plan- he let himself be captured by the slavers when he realized they had a mage coming, the encounter with the Fugitive was by chance- but it served his goals and he went along with it. The Inquisition's tacit support deserved to be watched closely.

 

Caring for you wasn't in the plan. Asking you about your Big Decisions was supposed to help him understand the reasons why, not fall for the person making them. He didn't mean to fall in love- but he did, even as he knew it couldn't last forever. So he told you sweet things, and gave you something so that he would remember you, and he hoped he could manage it somehow. If you never knew- if you never learned- perhaps he could make a plan. He could disappear as a minstrel- and return as the same, when his missions permitted. He wanted it to work somehow.

 

But it didn't, because he had to save the Monarch. He revealed himself, saving Rivaini but ruining his chance at a secret relationship. He fled, hoping to evade the Dread Wolf's Fangs, even as his next mission would lead him to opposing Solas to help save the world. A necessary mission. But he did regret leaving.

 

Harlequin arrives in Tevinter, and is promptly exposed. The Agents of Solas are too good, and finding new cover would take too long. So he joins the PC's effort openly- a Harlequin as an ally- and lends his blades and skills. He's open to a new relationship because that's how he's lived, as a Bard- always moving, always meeting new people as you leave the old ones behind. You take comfort where you find it when you arrive. Pining forever only offers misery.

 

The relationship with the PC is built on open honesty and low expectations. It's time-limited from the start. Something to ease the heartache if he left, or a respite and solace if he never had anyone at all. Feelings start to grow, but with no illusions of their permanancy.

 

Until he's fired, and loses his job, and his biggest excuse of leaving in the first place.

 

If he loved the Fugitive, he still loves the Fugitive, never denied it and now has nothing else keeping him from returning. Solas is stopped, and Duty doesn't take him away. He wants to come to terms with leaving- even if it means leaving the PC. Who was always a rebound, and warned to expect not much. There's tenderness, and affection, but not what he had with the Fugitive.

 

And if he didn't... he has no reason to leave. No unsettled business. So he stays, and even if what you have is new and raw, he'll let it grow into something more if you want.

 

And if he's single, he lives the life he wished he had as a Minstrel... and lives as a minstrel.

 

 

 

That's how I'd try to frame such a romance over two games.


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#34
Dean_the_Young

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Currently rereading the Dalish/Human guy's character arc, and I'm really find myself resonating with it now. I really like how he has to deal with a hard crisis of identity, which is a theme I really like seeing explored. Kind of split between two world, and has to decide which he would like to settle in.

 

The idea had a couple influences- some from this very forum- but the one about identity came from the book 'My Life with the Indians', the biography of Mary Jemison. She was a woman who was abducted by indians by age 12, rescued by another tribe, and chose to live the rest of her life with them.

 

The stories are different, of course, but the influence- and the possible book 'My Life with the Dalish' are inspired by that idea of cultural upbringing and a decision to stay with the tribe that raises you rather than the 'civilization' of your birth.

 

In terms of the ideology of the Dalish clan that raised him, what I wanted was a variety of Dalish that was 'what's the most extreme sort of moderate/reformist a Dalish could be before even other Dalish go 'that's not right.' The idea of cultural conversion of Humans- to reverse the loss to human culture- seemed fitting. Back in DAO, the pseudo-science theory that it was human culture that ended elven immortality was a bit part of the fandom- a pseudo-science theory on how to reverse it would likewise be appropriate. It does offer some interesting avenues to explore in terms of Ancient Truths in the Arlathan- just where did Humans come from, exactly, that they change elves so? Were Humans a result of ancient elves?- but also a sense of tragedy.

 

If reversal is impossible- if elves can turn human, but never the other way around- then Dalish's life can seem like a cruel joke. Raised and wishing for nothing more than the impossible. His struggle would only have meaning if he believed it did- and if the Dalish changed enough to let him.


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#35
Witch Cocktor

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Now that you've written the Minstrel's romance, I can appreciate it more.

I would never explore the relationship with Minstrel with the DA4 PC, if I romanced Minstrel with the Fugitive, though, unless he was the only male x male option.

And even then, if he was, I would just romance Saarebas in DDA, and then start a romance with the Minstrel in DA4 with the new PC, without any previous relationship baggage. Unless he wouldn't be romanceable if he didn't romance the Fugitive...?

 

The concept is interesting, but I'm not sure if players in general would enjoy exploring this concept of romancing a ''two-timer '' and stealing the Minstrel for good from the Fugitive.



#36
Dean_the_Young

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Did players in general enjoy exploring the concept of romancing an abomination-in-progress with Anders? BDSM with Iron Bull? Immaturity incarnate with Sera? Morrigan?

 

Of course not. I'd be willing to bet a good deal that a majority of players never romance any specific character, and the relationships wouldn't be half of what they were if they were expected to be universally appealing. Or imminently predictable. One of the great moments of DAO is if a romanced Alistair kills the Archdemon for you, to save your life- many a fangirl was inconsolable, and never let him do it again, but the impact real and solely because they were lead into it.

 

So there's a strong case for surprising someone with something they don't like and can't prevent: Alistair's death, Morrigan's departure, Anders action, Bull's betrayal. These test relationships for every playthrough after, question connections with a character, and spark controversy. The Minstrel fleeing you would hurt- and it's supposed to, and that's good, because hurt means emotional investment and is a catalyst to offer the player multiple reactions- which is a point of RPGs.

 

If you plan out a romance from a meta-game, that's perfectly fine- though, obviously, wouldn't know about DA4's iteration from DDA. And some people will never go down a romance arc they know ends badly- though some will, because some people want to script tragic romances.

 

But ultimately, plot  twists aren't written for the benefit of people who look for spoilers. They're meant for the people experiencing something for the first time, without the benefit of hindsight and foresight. And, ultimately, that's the standard they should be considered on- 'will this have the sort of effect we intend.'

 

Which, in the case of the Minstrel, would be hurt/anger/confusion... and offer a hint of longing/interest to be re-explored in the second game.


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#37
Witch Cocktor

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You have a point, I can admit to that. But I don't think comparing someone leaving you for dubious reasons is comparable to Anders blowing up a chantry, or Alistair dying. You can still remain with Anders and live a life with him, and Alistair dying doesn't remove the fact that he would've most likely stayed with you if he didn't.

 

Not my type of romance, but I'd be interested in seeing how many would like to pursue Minstrel's romance!