769 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

He might just enjoy the process.

[Cyonan]

You know that, but your clients don't. Look at it from a perspective outside your own head.

 

I did look at it from a perspective outside my own head, which is why I started with the accounting example: a subject I don't currently know a great deal about when it comes to business.

 

I switched to programming to provide a specific example of a case where I can know the outcome of a test before it's even been run. Yes, this requires knowledge of the subject matter of the test itself. This is why somebody with years of experience in accounting should have their opinion held in higher regard when it comes to accounting than my own.

 

Plus, you're assuming the client doesn't understand programming. I've been hired by people who do know programming but are too busy running a company to do any coding themselves.

 

As a programmer, you should find this easier to understand. If you redefine an object or use the same regex syntax in a different language, you get different results.

This is the same.

 

As a programmer I am the god of my own little development world. If a variable does not suit my needs, I change that variable so it does. I can change the code so that the outcome is what I originally wanted.

 

I cannot reprogram my own brain to change the variables of my opinions. I don't just get to change a line of code to make it so I don't like apples anymore.

 

When I notice Alistair not acting like a normal person, I can't just change a variable to remove the fact that I noticed it. I can pretend like I didn't, but that's just lying to myself. I still noticed it.

 

I've done that. The entire field of psychology lacks philosophical rigour.

 

To be honest, that's your problem. I can't make you understand psychology.

 

Maybe you should just pretend like it doesn't bother you?

 

We also accept limitations because of the presentation, and I don’t think that's necessary.

Your description of why you play is very similar to mine. I want to play my character in their world. And I think voicing the protagonist interferes with that.

Once again: I am not arguing for or against silent and voiced protagonists.

 

I'm pointing out that one very specific argument in favour of silent doesn't hold up terribly well to scrutiny. That's not to say there aren't other perfectly good arguments in favour of using a silent protagonist.

[AlanC9]

In terms of your argument, if I'm understanding you correctly, say I make a game called Dragon Age: Origins. I populate it with characters named Alistair, Morrigan, Sten, etc. Now instead of hiring a writer, say I pick up a computer and have it produce completely randomized sentences, in response to a set of inputs, which would be the PC's dialogue. That's the logical consequences of being completely unable to predict any kind of human behavior. This isn't even a standard which would apply to just role-playing games; it would apply across the spectrum to any story being written, ever. While you might be content with that, if your goal is to try to sell other gamers on the benefits of the silent protagonist, that's probably going to fall a bit flat.

it's good to be reminded that reductio ad absurdum is a legitimate technique.

[RoboticWater]

He might just enjoy the process.

Yet he doesn't say that.

 

Besides, he could easily enjoy the process somewhere else where his views may actually be convincing. I even like the sound of some of his ideas. They just have no place in Mass Effect.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Does that matter if psychology offers practical results? You can proclaim that psychology lacks rigour and flounder about as if there's no way we'll ever understand the mind of another, but that won't change the fact that there has been quantifiable progress consistently founded upon psychological research.

Those practical results aren't applicable to individuals, just populations.

I don't care what your whole philosophical metric of worth is. No one needs your approval.

No one needs anyone's approval, unless they want to be valued by that person.

Opportunity cost. Why waste your time here trying to convince one or two people on the Mass Effect forums when you could likely have a far greater impact elsewhere?

I'm not confident I could. If I went to The Witcher forum, for example, I haven't played those games much, so I can't cite specific features or even describe them accurately.

Where would you think I could go?

People like you help me on this forum because you're willing to engage in reasoned discussion. That's extremely valuable to me, because it grants me a larger platform from which to advance my ideas.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Yet he doesn't say that.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[RoboticWater]

Thoee practical results aren't applicable to individuals, just populations.

Which is what we've been dealing with.
 

No one needs anyone's approval, unless they want to be valued by that person.

Yes. No one needs to be valued by you.
 

I'm not confident I could. If I went to The Witcher forum, for example, I haven't played those games much, so I can't cite specific features or even describe them accurately.

Where would you think I could go?

Don't know, but I'd start with forums for games you actually like.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

No, but like I said, you can crusade anywhere.

[KaiserShep]

This debate is going to be consistently abstracted by Sylvius' willingness to redefine anything according to his preference.
 
Just throwing that out there.

"Sylvius cannot be contained. Sylvius breaks free - he can heavily compartmentalism and abstracts through debates, painfully maybe even dangerously, but uh, there is is."

-Ian Malcolm

[Sylvius the Mad]

I did look at it from a perspective outside my own head, which is why I started with the accounting example: a subject I don't currently know a great deal about when it comes to business.

I switched to programming to provide a specific example of a case where I can know the outcome of a test before it's even been run. Yes, this requires knowledge of the subject matter of the test itself. This is why somebody with years of experience in accounting should have their opinion held in higher regard when it comes to accounting than my own.

Plus, you're assuming the client doesn't understand programming. I've been hired by people who do know programming but are too busy running a company to do any coding themselves.

Then they're trusting their expertise, not yours.

You have every reason to trust your own expertise (actually, perhaps not - people have been shown to be poor assessors of their own skill).

While I don't trust the conclusions psychology draws, I concede that their studies can reveal interesting correlations (though a low p-value alone tells us little about the usefulness of a dataset).

As a programmer I am the god of my own little development world. If a variable does not suit my needs, I change that variable so it does. I can change the code so that the outcome is what I originally wanted.

I cannot reprogram my own brain to change the variables of my opinions.

Why not?

I don't just get to change a line of code to make it so I don't like apples anymore.

That's a direct reaction to a sensory input. That's a different thing.

When I notice Alistair not acting like a normal person, I can't just change a variable to remove the fact that I noticed it. I can pretend like I didn't, but that's just lying to myself. I still noticed it.

Your assessment of what constitutes normal requires computation on your part (in a way the apples don't). You have an opportunity there to change that process of it produces a suboptimal gameplay experience.

Once again: I am not arguing for or against silent and voiced protagonists.

I'm pointing out that one very specific argument in favour of silent doesn't hold up terribly well to scrutiny. That's not to say there aren't other perfectly good arguments in favour of using a silent protagonist.

The delivery of the line is my only problem with the voiced protagonist. With the silent protagonist, I got to decide what the voice sounded like, including its intonation and cadence. With the voiced protagonist, I don't.

Inquisition reduced these problems somewhat by giving me multiple voice options, but also by using a more neutral tone that was less likely to interfere with the characterization I had in mind. If MEA were to move in that direction, the voice would be less of a problem.

That would free me up to complain about the paraphrase, which is the bigger issue anyway.

[KaiserShep]

Couldn't you conceivably imagine that your character sounds a certain way but intends to mean something different?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Which is what we've been dealing with.

Populations aren't real. There are only individuals. Individuals are the ones making these decisions.

Yes. No one needs to be valued by you.

Then don't expect me to throw them a rope if they're drowning.

Don't know, but I'd start with forums for games you actually like.

Paradox makes great games. As such, I have no reason to get them to change anything; the games are already great.

The problem with Bethesda's games has long been the action combat, but that has always been a central part of their games. Arena was originally just going to be a combat arena; Tamriel got tacked on later in development. And they openly support modding, so problems like the voice and paraphrase can be fixed.

I suppose I could argue against the story focus on Fallout 4, but I only just started playing that one (I was waiting for the GECK release) so I can't yet offer an informed opinion.

BioWare is the company that used to make exactly the games I wanted, and continues to include optional features that allow a variety of playstyles. They also still make some amazing games (Inquisition is incredible, as was DAO). I can also point to features of past BioWare games that worked extremely well, like NWN's UI, or its combat animations that actually had gameplay relevance (aka the dance of death).

Until they switched to Frostbite, they were still using the engine from NWN (last seen in DA2), and they continue to accept job applications built with its tools.

Even the ME series includes some excellent features. I think BioWare's forum is the best place for me.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Couldn't you conceivably imagine that your character sounds a certain way but intends to mean something different?

I've wondered that myself. It's difficult to test that with the paraphrase system in place.

And why then did he say it that way? I suppose I could imagine that he said it differently, but then wouldn't just disabling the voice be even better?

The voice adds nothing to the game. It provides no new information that we can use, since we don't get to hear the line (and its tone) until after we've chosen the dialogue option.

A preview would help a lot. Let us hear the line before choosing it.

[AlanC9]

Is anyone else coming away from this debate thinking that an unvoiced protagonist is sounding less sensible the longer it continues?

[Dean_the_Young]

Is anyone else coming away from this debate thinking that an unvoiced protagonist is sounding less sensible the longer it continues?

 

Speaking as someone who just entered the thread, the last few pages have been less than encouraging.

[Hammerstorm]

Speaking as someone who just entered the thread, the last few pages have been less than encouraging.

 

As some that has seen the whole discussion from the beginning, I have no idea what is so interesting with a silent protagonist. But it is some very advanced (for me) mental gymnastic in the topic. 

[RoboticWater]

Populations aren't real. There are only individuals. Individuals are the ones making these decisions.

You can't just say something doesn't exist to win an argument.
 

Then don't expect me to throw them a rope if they're drowning.

OK? What exactly are you trying to prove with this line of discussion? My point earlier is that you clearly don't understand human behavior. That doesn't mean you can just write off anyone who doesn't compartmentalize as extraneous and then argue that anyone can easily apply tone to their silent protagonists because everyone can compartmentalize. You can't just ignore the audience when considering features of a consumer product, nor can you ignore common human behavior when it's the basis of your argument.

It would be idiotic of me to say "anyone who lacks enough hand-eye coordination to play a shooter is completely worthless," and then proceed use that as a basis to prove that XCOM needed a TPS component.
 

Even the ME series includes some excellent features. I think BioWare's forum is the best place for me.

Dragon Age sure, but why Mass Effect? Are a few RPG features really enough to make you think that BioWare would change the core mechanics of their game?

[Cyonan]

Why not?

That's a direct reaction to a sensory input. That's a different thing.

Your assessment of what constitutes normal requires computation on your part (in a way the apples don't). You have an opportunity there to change that process of it produces a suboptimal gameplay experience.

 

The way Alistair acts would be the sensory input, and I can't change how my brain processes that information. I also can't change what I believe to be normal Human behaviour without good cause to do so.

 

For me, that requires something I view as a logical argument backed up by evidence. I've not been presented with such an argument, so my views about Human behaviour remain unchanged. So far in my mind, your argument has been illogical and lacking evidence so you have convinced me of absolutely nothing.

 

All you have done is tell me you don't understand Human behaviour and then tried to tell me how Human behaviour is supposed to work. You defeated your own argument by admitting you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Acting like you believe something and actually believing it are two different things. Even if I could be very convincing in my posts and make other people think I really do believe it, I would know that I don't. 

[sjsharp2011]

Is anyone else coming away from this debate thinking that an unvoiced protagonist is sounding less sensible the longer it continues?

Have to agre even though I hasve and stilL do play DAO I have to admit I prefer the voiced protags over the silent ones.as when I do runs of the DA trilogy I'm kind of glad when I'm finished with DAO and moved onto a voiced one in DA2. I do enjoy playing DAO but that fact you playthrough the entir game with a motionless expressionless face can get a little boring at least to me as I like playing characters that seem to have you know... CHARACTER!

[TheN7Penguin]

Having a silent protagonist just makes me want to skip through every conversation ever. To this day, I still have no idea what the plot of The Elder Scrolls Online actually is, because I don't take notice XD I was like "Oh hey that's Michael Gambon", "Oh hey that's Jennifer Hale" "Oh hey that's John Cleese", and then I just skipped like every conversation ever because it wasn't interesting.

 

Being a total ******* in a video game isn't fun unless you have a protagonist voice to go along with it. And I like being an ******* in video games. Hence why I like a voiced protagonist. If you're going to have a silent protagonist, you may as well just be nice to everyone. And where's the fun in that?

[Sylvius the Mad]

You can't just say something doesn't exist to win an argument.

I'm a strict nominalist. I don't believe in the existence of groups.

Dragon Age sure, but why Mass Effect? Are a few RPG features really enough to make you think that BioWare would change the core mechanics of their game?

Where did you get the idea that I expect them to change the core mechanics of Mass Effect?

I'm trying to point out the ways in which the ME voiced protagonist failed for me. There's also a recent example of a BioWare game with a voiced protagonist that was much better (DAI). If MEA adopts the DAI style of voiced protagonist, that would be a massive improvement, while still keeping the voiced protagonist other people seem to value.

But I'm not going to ask for a suboptimal solution, even while I hope to get one.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The way Alistair acts would be the sensory input, and I can't change how my brain processes that information. I also can't change what I believe to be normal Human behaviour without good cause to do so.

I'll grant the former, but not the latter. You have conscious control over how you process information.

For me, that requires something I view as a logical argument backed up by evidence. I've not been presented with such an argument, so my views about Human behaviour remain unchanged. So far in my mind, your argument has been illogical and lacking evidence so you have convinced me of absolutely nothing.

It's a fictional setting. Why do you require that their humans behave like our humans?

I'm not advancing a positive position, here. I'm suggesting that there is no positive position that the player didn't invent, and as such the player is responsible for any associated downsides.

All you have done is tell me you don't understand Human behaviour and then tried to tell me how Human behaviour is supposed to work. You defeated your own argument by admitting you don't know what you're talking about.

My lack of expertise somehow absolves you of actually examining the argument?

Acting like you believe something and actually believing it are two different things.

Yes. Actually believing something is logically indefensible.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Have to agre even though I hasve and stilL do play DAO I have to admit I prefer the voiced protags over the silent ones.as when I do runs of the DA trilogy I'm kind of glad when I'm finished with DAO and moved onto a voiced one in DA2. I do enjoy playing DAO but that fact you playthrough the entir game with a motionless expressionless face can get a little boring at least to me as I like playing characters that seem to have you know... CHARACTER!

I prefer playing characters I actually get to control.

When they let me select a voice actor from among a large group (much like selecting character portraits), and choose the full line, and select the tone, and select the associated action and fscial expression--all independently--only then the voice will be as good as the silent protagonist was. And not before.

My character should take zero actions - not even smiling - without my direct input.

[SNascimento]

I prefer playing characters I actually get to control.

Actually, mute protagonists just let you pretend more easily that you have control of what (or how) they say.

[TheN7Penguin]

 

That's why you want a voiced protagonist.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Actually, mute protagonists just let you pretend more easily that you have control of what (or how) they say.

There's no material difference between those two things.