769 réponses à ce sujet

[SNascimento]

There's no material difference between those two things. Therefore, there's no difference.

Of course there is, it's just easier to ignore it when you don't hear the protagonist speaking.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Of course there is, it's just easier to ignore it.

The two states are indistinguishable. There's no difference to ignore.

[RoboticWater]

I'm a strict nominalist. I don't believe in the existence of groups.

Then at no point can you say "that's what people are like." Nor can you found an argument on the assumption that compartmentalization is a common skill.
 

Where did you get the idea that I expect them to change the core mechanics of Mass Effect?

I'm trying to point out the ways in which the ME voiced protagonist failed for me. There's also a recent example of a BioWare game with a voiced protagonist that was much better (DAI). If MEA adopts the DAI style of voiced protagonist, that would be a massive improvement, while still keeping the voiced protagonist other people seem to value.

But I'm not going to ask for a suboptimal solution, even while I hope to get one.

I just don't understand why you spend so much energy on a series of games you don't enjoy playing. Even if you got a mute protagonist, would that make the next Mass Effect a good game to you? Yes, you would probably find it more palatable, but ultimately would the game be worth your time? Why even bother asking for certain features to be changed when the experience as a whole doesn't appeal to you?
 

The two states are indistinguishable. There's no difference to ignore.

Prove it.

[Il Divo]

Then at no point can you say "that's what people are like." Nor can you found an argument on the assumption that compartmentalization is a common skill.

 

I didn't even think about that - if we take the claim seriously - it's not even possible to claim that compartmentalization is feasible. 

[Lady Artifice]

In a fictional world where there is no objective reality, no conclusions have legitimacy. Or, if they do, that legitimacy is determined solely by the standard set by the player. We might each have our own standard, so the same conclusion made by different players could have different levels of legitimacy.

The silent protagonist have us more freedom to do that sort of thing, but people here fail to understand my argument in favour of it because they weren't taking advantage of the freedom that was available to them.

So I'm trying to explain what they could have been doing, and thus highlight the oppotunity cost of the voiced protagonist, which it seems many players just haven't noticed.

Or they don't care. But I have no evidence that "players" is a homogenous geoup, so I won't just assume that's true of everyone.

 

I fundamentally disagree. A fictional world needs to build it's own rules and reality, and those are the decided by the creator.

 

It all just sounds to me like you're asking for control of a creator without having to deal with the responsibilities and constraints of one.

 

I actually do understand the appeal of a silent protagonist, even if it doesn't necessarily appeal enough to me to make me actually want it. A VA helps define the energy and charisma the protagonist exudes, so not having one does give you more freedom to imagine their demeanor and voice as you'd like it to be, I just don't think there's any point in arguing in favor of something so obviously on it's way out of fashion.

 

When movies started talking, a lot of the Hollywood elite and the critics accused it of being just a vulgar gimmick, a fad that would come and go. It actually led to the end of certain careers and the rise of others. You're reacting to voice acted protagonists similarly, but I don't think it's as warranted. In this case, it's just one character who's starting to talk by default, and your control over that character was always limited. It must be limited to some degree, or there can't be a story.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Then at no point can you say "that's what people are like." Nor can you found an argument on the assumption that compartmentalization is a common skill.

It just never occurred to me that compartmentalization was difficult. I did once tutor a philosophy student who had trouble with it, but I just thought she was dumb.

I just don't understand why you spend so much energy on a series of games you don't enjoy playing. Even if you got a mute protagonist, would that make the next Mass Effect a good game to you? Yes, you would probably find it more palatable, but ultimately would the game be worth your time?

I'd like to find out.

The first ME would have been quite a good game witha silent protagonist. Probably better than KotOR.

Why even bother asking for certain features to be changed when the experience as a whole doesn't appeal to you?

Because I want the audience to see someone asking.

Prove it.

If the game never reveals the truth, then me pretending I can control things and me actually controlling them would be identical.

I'm just choosing in which bubble universe I get to live.

[Cyonan]

You have conscious control over how you process information.

 

We have mental disorders that affect the way the brain processes information. To make this claim would be to say that they don't exist and that anybody with them is choosing to have them. This is not only hilariously inaccurate, but also insulting to those people.

 

So good job on that one.

 

My lack of expertise somehow absolves you of actually examining the argument?

 

It makes you have zero credibility, which means simply stating "this is how it works" wont ever convince me because you don't know what you're talking about. I have no reason to ever believe what you're saying without any evidence of it, of which you have provided none.

 

Your argument itself need only be examined for about 5 seconds before I reject it as illogical and inaccurate.

 

Yes. Actually believing something is logically indefensible.

 

I believe gravity is real.

 

Go ahead. Prove how that's not logically defensible.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I believe gravity is real.

Go ahead. Prove how that's not logically defensible.

Your lack of conclusive evidence is all the evidence you need. Your use of induction to reach that conclusion is all the evidence you need.

As illustration, I recommend Bertrand Russell's parable of the inductivist turkey.

[RoboticWater]

It just never occurred to me that compartmentalization was difficult. I did once tutor a philosophy student who had trouble with it, but I just thought she was dumb.

What a wonderful way to see the world.

Regardless, does this mean that I've proven to you that assuming tone for mute protagonists can't actually be considered a feature?
 

I'd like to find out.

The first ME would have been quite a good game witha silent protagonist. Probably better than KotOR.

We're not talking about ME1, we're talking about the series as a whole. How much of Mass Effect as it is now would BioWare need to change so that the series would appeal to you? Would you consider ME3 a good game if it had a mute protagonist?
 

Because I want the audience to see someone asking.

What audience? I thought you said groups didn't exist.

In fact, how do you even know you can sway this alleged audience if you don't know how humans behave?
 

If the game never reveals the truth, then me pretending i can control things and me actually controlling them would be identical.

I'm just choosing in which bubble universe I get to live.

Different bubble universes seems like different to me.

[Il Divo]

Your lack of conclusive evidence is all the evidence you need. Your use of induction to reach that conclusion is all the evidence you need.

As illustration, I recommend Bertrand Russell's parable of the inductivist turkey.

 

I'm not sure the inductivist turkey is all that relevant for this. Falsifiability is important, but all that basically tells us is that induction doesn't work perfectly. But unless you got something that works better, it's the best we got. 

[AlanC9]

It just never occurred to me that compartmentalization was difficult. I did once tutor a philosophy student who had trouble with it, but I just thought she was dumb.

Is the difficulty of compartmentalization the right question in the first place?

I suppose this depends on the precise definition of compartmentalization. I can use a chain of reasoning without actually believing in the premises of that reasoning. If that counts as compartmentalization, then I find compartmentalization easy. But if compartmentalization requires me to stop realizing that those premises are b.s., then I can't do it at all.

[AlanC9]

I'm not sure the inductivist turkey is all that relevant for this. Falsifiability is important, but all that basically tells us is that induction doesn't work perfectly. But unless you got something that works better, it's the best we got.

Wait... we're not seriously questioning whether induction works, are we?

[Il Divo]

Wait... we're not seriously questioning whether induction works, are we?

 

That was my first thought too when the question of gravity was brought up. 

[Lady Artifice]

After debating with Sylvius about the existence of implication (my mind reeled), debating with him about whether or not gravity is a real phenomenon would not surprise me.

[KaiserShep]

"How can voiceless protagonists be real if our game isn't real?"

- Jaden Smith

[Cyonan]

Your lack of conclusive evidence is all the evidence you need. Your use of induction to reach that conclusion is all the evidence you need.

As illustration, I recommend Bertrand Russell's parable of the inductivist turkey.

 

You do know that gravity has conclusive evidence as to its existence, right? Please tell me you don't deny the existence of gravity.

 

The thing you're missing is that, with inductive reasoning, we can predict what will probably happen and that means if we run into one scenario where it doesn't that can be explained as an oddity, but when it starts happening all the time then we notice something is wrong. I used specifically Alistair as an example, but it would happen with the majority of NPCs if I used certain tones of voice.

 

Though inductive reasoning I can conclude that winter will start around October where I live, because that's about the time it always has started. If it started snowing in August one year I would find it very strange. If it happened repeatedly I would question what the hell is going on with the world because that's not normal.

[sjsharp2011]

I fundamentally disagree. A fictional world needs to build it's own rules and reality, and those are the decided by the creator.

 

It all just sounds to me like you're asking for control of a creator without having to deal with the responsibilities and constraints of one.

 

I actually do understand the appeal of a silent protagonist, even if it doesn't necessarily appeal enough to me to make me actually want it. A VA helps define the energy and charisma the protagonist exudes, so not having one does give you more freedom to imagine their demeanor and voice as you'd like it to be, I just don't think there's any point in arguing in favor of something so obviously on it's way out of fashion.

 

When movies started talking, a lot of the Hollywood elite and the critics accused it of being just a vulgar gimmick, a fad that would come and go. It actually led to the end of certain careers and the rise of others. You're reacting to voice acted protagonists similarly, but I don't think it's as warranted. In this case, it's just one character who's starting to talk by default, and your control over that character was always limited. It must be limited to some degree, or there can't be a story.

Coulsn't have put it any better.

[sjsharp2011]

After debating with Sylvius about the existence of implication (my mind reeled), debating with him about whether or not gravity is a real phenomenon would not surprise me.

Indeed. My advice don't ge thim started. We'll be here till well past the point of MEA's release no doubt

[RoboticWater]

Wait... we're not seriously questioning whether induction works, are we?

Of course we are. Sylvius doesn't believe in groups.

[PrinceofTime]

Hah i wish

[Andrew Lucas]

Silent Protagonist is so last decade.

[straykat]

After debating with Sylvius about the existence of implication (my mind reeled), debating with him about whether or not gravity is a real phenomenon would not surprise me.

 

I knew a guy who didn't think dinosaurs really existed.

[Witherleader]

See you joke but an official Mass Effect text adventure?  I would play the crap out of that.

Okay, let's start one!

 

You are in a desert. You see a cactus next to a lake. What do you do?

 

A: Walk to it

B: Run to it

C: Ignore it

D: Walk the opposite way

[TheN7Penguin]

Aw, I was hoping there was an option to run INTO it.

 

C for me.

[Cyonan]

Okay, let's start one!

 

You are in a desert. You see a cactus next to a lake. What do you do?

 

A: Walk to it

B: Run to it

C: Ignore it

D: Walk the opposite way

 

No option to romance it in a BioWare game?

 

Pre-order cancelled.