769 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

The other thing annoying me here is it goes beyond roleplaying.... whatever freedom you may want there.

 

He wants to roleplay everything else too. That isn't roleplaying at all... digital or pnp. And if it was PnP, you'd probably get in a fight.

[Sylvius the Mad]

However, the breaking of the conversation could actually make Alistair "hardened", which is problematic if you didn't mean for this to happen.

Whether I mean for it to happen should have no direct relationship to whether it does. The player shouldn't have that mich control over the NPCs.

From my understanding of the character, Alistair was good-natured, polite and stable. The sudden breaking of conversation goes against this. Maybe i'm off on this but that part of the conversation didn't seem charastic of Alistair at all.

Your understanding could have been wrong. Alistair might not even be the same person is each playthrough. His personality could be different in different versions of the same reality. There's really no way to know.

Well, visual aids aren't for everyone. It's possible for you, you need the entire sentence spelled out. Either that or they need to work better with the icons.

The icons might help if they were better defined, but the dialogue options should describe what to going to be said, not what the consequences will be.

Take the statement "You stink". By itself or with a ! icon, the scene would possibly play out with PC waving a hand infront of their nose stating "You stink", dead-pan, and the receiving NPC would know they need to take a bath. If the icon was a icon, the PC would respond similarly with a smile on their face and in their voice so the NPC not only knew it was a joke or jab but possibly also the extra garlic was the right choice.

Again, you're trying to control the NPC reaction.

If you want to say something as vague as "You stink", then you're taking the risk that some unintended meaning will be perceived.

No, i think of it as representing the frame of mind of the PC during that part of the scene. Where, with the example noted above, the ! icon would mean a direct, no bullsh*t statement, while a icon would mean the PC's feeling jovial so the statement's going to be said as a joke.

I'd prefer to determine those two things separately.

Hahahah. The icon might be a travesty but for people like me, it's occasionally helpful. I'm clueless when it comes to understanding social queues, especially those involving high-stake situations like romance.

I am also hopeless at that. Having the game tell me how a line will be received is like cheating.

I do my best to ignore both the icons and the position on the wheel.

I have actually asked for the option to randomize the wheel positions, but BioWare hasn't been receptive to the idea.

[Sylvius the Mad]

And lose out on all the interesting subjects and potential advancements purely out of fear that our descriptions won't be perfectly accurate?

What advancements? The inability to control the character? More non-interactive content?

What are these advancements?

[Sylvius the Mad]

If the goal is to eventually get the features you like implemented into the game one way or another, then having a one man dissent or no dissent at all are about equally as inefficient methods of going about doing that. BioWare isn't going to cater to a single BSN poster, or even a small handful of them being very vocal.

Of course not. They'll target the median.

I'm trying to move the median, either by making extreme positions on my side look better, or by making extreme positions on the other side look worse. I target the margins.

[Prince Enigmatic]

My own personal thoughts on a silent protagonist, for Mass Effect Andromeda.

 

I personally find silent protagonists forgettable, and there games not ones I'd immediately replay. It has to take a lot to really make me come back to a game that has a silent protagonist, like BioShock or Dishonored (I preferred BioShock Infinite a lot more because Booker DeWitt was a talking protagonist, and I will probably like Dishonored 2 more knowing Corvo this time will talk)

 

With RPG's, I don't like how everyone else talks (like Elder Scrolls) and to an extent has a character or personality (in that case, not Elder Scrolls), but I'm just a potentially cool looking and leveled up badass that has no real personality or character.

 

Other people can easily roleplay with a silent protagonist, and prefer them. But I personally prefer games with talkies 

 

But for a Mass Effect game, and any storytelling game in general, I think non-silent protagonists can make the narrative stronger, and I find myself much more immersed in it if the protagonist talks and has a personality and character of there own.

[Cyonan]

I am also hopeless at that. Having the game tell me how a line will be received is like cheating.

I do my best to ignore the icons.

 

The icons only tell you how the line will be delivered, not received.

 

The heart icon for example means flirting, not that you are initiating a romance story arc.

 

Of course not. They'll target the median.

I'm trying to move the median, either by making extreme positions on my side look better, or by making extreme positions on the other side look worse. I target the margins.

 

and the entire rest of my post that you didn't quote explains why your posts have failed to do this.

 

So my recommendation is that you just read that =P

[RoboticWater]

What advancements? The inability to control the character? More non-interactive content?

What are these advancements?

We were talking about humanity in general. If we allow for loose definitions, then we can define terms like communication and form general consensuses about human behavior. Advancements in public policy and marketing are founded on these lose definitions. They may not be perfect, but they're better than going nowhere.

 

But technically, yes, by trying to comprehend human behavior despite our measurement limitations, we'll be able to determine the wants, needs, and capabilities of most players. If the vast majority players lack the ability to invent the tone of the PC or handle its repercussions, then BIoWare can comfortably shape their game without considering that ability.

 

Of course not. They'll target the median.

I'm trying to move the median, either by making extreme positions on my side look better, or by making extreme positions on the other side look worse. I target the margins.

If you're trying to make your side look better and our side look worse, then given the other responses in this thread, I think you've failed completely. In fact, I'd wager that you've done the opposite.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The icons only tell you how the line will be delivered, not received.

The heart icon for example means flirting, not that you are initiating a romance story arc.

I'd rather decide that myself. If I want to flirt with a different line, let me flirt with a different line. If I want to deliver the Heart line without trying to flirt, let me do that.

Removing the icons would let us do that. If the NPC thinks I'm flirting when I'm not, I can live with that. If the NPC thinks I'm not flirting when I am, I can live with that. Both produce interesting roleplaying opportunities.

I want those misunderstandings in the game. Rigidly defining tone and delivery where the player can see or hear them takes that away.

[Sylvius the Mad]

We were talking about humanity in general. If we allow for loose definitions, then we can define terms like communication and form general consensuses about human behavior.

We disagree wildly about human behaviour.

I will not be bullied by the majority.

[Sylvius the Mad]

My own personal thoughts on a silent protagonist, for Mass Effect Andromeda.

I personally find silent protagonists forgettable, and there games not ones I'd immediately replay.

I'm the opposite. With the exception of the Inquisitor, I find voiced protagonists forgettable (because I don't really get to play them, so they're basically just NPCs). I have no desire ever to replay ME2, ME3, or DA2.

With RPG's, I don't like how everyone else talks (like Elder Scrolls) and to an extent has a character or personality (in that case, not Elder Scrolls), but I'm just a potentially cool looking and leveled up badass that has no real personality or character.

Tabletop characters don't have a voice. Do they not have personality?

But for a Mass Effect game, and any storytelling game in general, I think non-silent protagonists can make the narrative stronger...

This is absolutely true, and part of the problem.

...and I find myself much more immersed in it if the protagonist talks and has a personality and character of there own.

But doesn't that make you less of an active participant? How does excluding your input immerse you more?

[RoboticWater]

We disagree wildly about human behaviour.

I will not be bullied by the majority.

The only way to convince the majority is to pander to their communicative practices.

 

You don't need to agree with my view of human behavior to notice that it has results.

[Prince Enigmatic]

I'm the opposite. With the exception of the Inquisitor, I find voiced protagonists forgettable (because I don't really get to play them, so they're basically just NPCs). I have no desire ever to replay ME2, ME3, or DA2.
Tabletop characters don't have a voice. Do they not have personality?
This is absolutely true, and part of the problem.
But doesn't that make you less of an active participant? How does excluding your input immerse you more?

 

I don't play games to play as myself though. I'm a boring person irl lol so i wouldn't roleplay as someone like me. I could easily imagine up my own character, there traits and personality etc, but if i want to do that, I'd rather write or something like that. I enjoy games and any piece of fiction with different and exciting characters, and its why I enjoy video games as well. 

 

I personally find myself more immersed if I like the protagonist if there different and new to me. I can still be an active participant if the protagonist is different to me. As long as I can relate, empathize, find them likable, or generally think they are a good character, then I'm immersed. 

 

Films as well I'm an active participant, but I've never watched a film with a protagonist or character like me, nor with a silent character in that same vein, but I personally am still immersed. With video games its no different.

 

Also I haven't played Dragon Age or tabletop games, so I can't comment on that. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Physicist Alan Sokal was able to get a deliberately nonsensical paper published in a major postmodernist journal called Social Text simply by making it sufficiently flattering to the views of the journal editors; the paper was called "Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity," and despite being filled with mathematical and scientific errors that would have been blatantly obvious to anyone with a passing familiarity of the relevant science and math it was published. At one point in the paper, Sokal draws an absurd analogy between the liberal feminist slogan "pro-choice" and the axiom of choice, which is a standard part of "hegemonic" Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory. The moral: Most postmodernist scholarship is indistinguishable from utter nonsense.

 

Your likes, good sir, as promised.

[KaiserShep]

I'd rather decide that myself. If I want to flirt with a different line, let me flirt with a different line. If I want to deliver the Heart line without trying to flirt, let me do that.
Removing the icons would let us do that. If the NPC thinks I'm flirting when I'm not, I can live with that. If the NPC thinks I'm not flirting when I am, I can live with that. Both produce interesting roleplaying opportunities.
I want those misunderstandings in the game. Rigidly defining tone and delivery where the player can see or hear them takes that away.

But isn't this easily solved by allowing us to say that we don't mean anything by it when approached by the companion you may have [inadvertently] flirted with?

Take, for example, the flirt dialogue with Garrus in ME. You can suggest sparring, and choose whether or not to run with the flirt talk, or divert to playful banter about hitting things.

[Cyonan]

I'd rather decide that myself. If I want to flirt with a different line, let me flirt with a different line. If I want to deliver the Heart line without trying to flirt, let me do that.

Removing the icons would let us do that. If the NPC thinks I'm flirting when I'm not, I can live with that. If the NPC thinks I'm not flirting when I am, I can live with that. Both produce interesting roleplaying opportunities.

I want those misunderstandings in the game. Rigidly defining tone and delivery where the player can see or hear them takes that away.

 

If you want to act as though a non heart icon means your character thinks they're being flirty then you can do that even with icons turned on.

 

I'll agree that paraphrasing is bad(and one of the first mods I installed for Fallout 4 changes the dialogue selector to show full dialogue), but the icon is there to tell you as a player what the tone of delivery will be, because with a voiced protagonist there is no arguing that it's not pre-defined for us.

 

If you want the heart options to not always mean the character is flirting, why are you assuming that they are always flirting? There's should be more than enough ambiguity here for you, considering some of the other leaps you've made.

[Drakoriz]

man this threat still going hahahhaha and only 1 person keep defending it hahaha

 

ME or DA was never make to have a silent protagonist (DA 1 maybe but evolve over it, THANKS GOD)

 

Really if i want to "role play" i choose PnP game bc i use my imagination to role play. Video games are like interactive / choose your ending stories.

[Dean_the_Young]

I speak in favour of features I like.

I get attacked for liking those features.

I try to explain why I like them.

People attack my reasoning.

I defend my reasoning (which typically relies on constructive logic, which seems to be my natural mode of thought).

And we descend from there.

Fundamentally, I like to be able to control my gameplay experience by exploiting the ambiguity left by the designers, and I'm willing to exploit nearly any amount of ambiguity to so that. I'm trying to play these games the same way I've played CRPGs dating back to the early 1980s, and it mostly works, but the voiced protagonist has proven quite difficult.

 

And yet your reasoning is consistently constructively unsound, frequently internally inconsistent when elaborated, and never particularly insightful. Instead you lack intellectual humility to recognize the shortcomings of your arguments and retreat to pedantics of your own creation to avoid any challenge persistantly pursued by people who know what they're talking about more than you.

 

You're just a particularly verbose version of the 'Am not- is too' argument that rejects any external correction. If I wanted simple and frequently slipshod insistances of how the world and people work, I'd listen to partisan politicians. Or children on a school grounds.

 

Hence, you're boring.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The only way to convince the majority is to pander to their communicative practices.

You don't need to agree with my view of human behavior to notice that it has results.

It hasn't persuaded me, and I can't read the other people.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't play games to play as myself though. I'm a boring person irl lol so i wouldn't roleplay as someone like me. I could easily imagine up my own character, there traits and personality etc, but if i want to do that, I'd rather write or something like that. I enjoy games and any piece of fiction with different and exciting characters, and its why I enjoy video games as well.

I personally find myself more immersed if I like the protagonist if there different and new to me. I can still be an active participant if the protagonist is different to me. As long as I can relate, empathize, find them likable, or generally think they are a good character, then I'm immersed.

Films as well I'm an active participant, but I've never watched a film with a protagonist or character like me, nor with a silent character in that same vein, but I personally am still immersed. With video games its no different.

Also I haven't played Dragon Age or tabletop games, so I can't comment on that.

I don't find other people interesting.

I play these games as simulations to be run, not stories to be told.

[Sylvius the Mad]

And yet your reasoning is consistently constructively unsound, frequently internally inconsistent when elaborated, and never particularly insightful. Instead you lack intellectual humility to recognize the shortcomings of your arguments and retreat to pedantics of your own creation to avoid any challenge persistantly pursued by people who know what they're talking about more than you.

You're just a particularly verbose version of the 'Am not- is too' argument that rejects any external correction. If I wanted simple and frequently slipshod insistances of how the world and people work, I'd listen to partisan politicians. Or children on a school grounds.

Hence, you're boring.

I'm mostly not advancing a positive position. I'm trying to show that other people's positions aren't guaranteed to be true, thus leaving space for interpretation if the player so desires.

Of course that's a pedantic (and often semantic) argument.

[Laughing_Man]

I'd rather decide that myself. If I want to flirt with a different line, let me flirt with a different line. If I want to deliver the Heart line without trying to flirt, let me do that.

Removing the icons would let us do that. If the NPC thinks I'm flirting when I'm not, I can live with that. If the NPC thinks I'm not flirting when I am, I can live with that. Both produce interesting roleplaying opportunities.

I want those misunderstandings in the game. Rigidly defining tone and delivery where the player can see or hear them takes that away.

 

I find it hard to put into words what a terrible idea this is. Icons or no icons, a game isn't supposed to be a social awkwardness simulator.

Responses should be clear to the average player, voiced PC or not.

 

If you can't understand the constrains of dialogue in video games, just stick to PnP. Even dialogue with mute protagonists is limited to some degree,

it's not like there is a difference in principle, only the degree of choice.(5 choices vs. 3 choices, when often those 5 are not truly different)

 

I don't find other people interesting.

I play these games as simulations to be run, not stories to be told.

 

And that's just the thing, most video games are not intended for this, and while you can use them for whatever you want, it's useless to complain about the fact that they are not optimized for it.

[RoboticWater]

It hasn't persuaded me, and I can't read the other people.

Your loss then. You're doomed to continually worsen your position by not considering your audience.

 

I don't find other people interesting.

I play these games as simulations to be run, not stories to be told.

And what of people who do find other people interesting and do play these games as stories to be told, i.e. probably most of BioWare's fanbase?

[Prince Enigmatic]

I don't find other people interesting.

I play these games as simulations to be run, not stories to be told.

 

I'd understand that sentiment if it were solely towards simulation games. But games that fall under other genres? Well, if games were just simulations, and didn't tell stories, then I don't think there'd be much of a gaming industry to speak of.

[KaiserShep]

I don't find other people interesting.
I play these games as simulations to be run, not stories to be told.

I think that this is the basic problem with the argument. Focus on characters and stories is basically BioWare's bag, so anyone looking for a simulation to run is going to have to look elsewhere.

[cJohnOne]

So Sylvius the Mad as far as role playing you can choose to have a character that doesn't know about elf root or choose a character who does know about elf root.

 

I assume that when choosing a difficulty setting you want it to be realistic as possible?  Or is that a choice you make?