769 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Voice or no voice doesn't change that.

The paraphrase does. Unequivocally, the paraphrase does.

[Drakoriz]

i love this topics, is like reading ppl that are stuck on the early 90s.

 

Why ppl cant let the past stay on the past. No voice protagonist will be horrible for a game first set on 3 person and second where interactions are on a cinematic dialogue.

 

ME first isnt a first person aka Fallout 3 or a isometric shitty RPG from the 90s

[Gothfather]

Per Gothfather's description (the post to which I was responding), yes it is.

If role-playing is what an actor does when s/he plays a role, then the voice actor / animators are doing the role-play.
 

I don't believe I ever stated that it is not possible.

I will, however, state that unless you're willing to ignore the behavior of the MC in the plethora of cut-scenes presented, it is impossible to role-play some personality types.

Like this one, for example:
 


So the role-player does exactly that, and then selects the paraphrase that they believe will reflect that response, only to see the character do or say something completely contrary to their expectations. Then what?
 

By actually, you know... doing it.

They're not selecting a paraphrase and then watching a previously recorded performer act it out.

 

 

Voice or no voice doesn't change that.

 

 

The paraphrase does. Unequivocally, the paraphrase does.

 

And here we get ate the actual crux of the issue it isn't the voice acting that is problematic it is the paraphrasing. Which is actually a separate issue and which has improved with each game that Bioware has done.

 

I believe that Bioware has been honest in their research on this issue, players find it boring to read the answer then watch it acted out. Three companies have research this issue and three companies have ALL come to the same conclusion. One solution is to give an option to allow players to choose to see the whole line. But this is a bigger leap for a company to make than players might think. No developer wants to add what all their research tells him is boring to a game. Getting over that hurtle isn't as easy as just asking for it.

 

When I first played ME1 I was was a vocal opponent against paraphrasing because of the WTF moments with paraphrasing. But bioware has taken the criticism over the system seriously and made efforts to solve these issues. I don't recall a single WTF moment in DA:I. Not saying none exist but I can't recall one in my 434 hours of play. (hours of play according to origin). After playing pillars of eternity and having a NPC only voice act a portion of the text forcing me to reread it was very boring for me. I no longer oppose the paraphrasing because I feel it can work and be improved.  Other companies like CDPR have improved this as well but witcher 3 is their third game using it. Bethesda on the other hand a very poor showing on this issue with FO4 but I expected a weaker showing than Bioware or CDPR because this was Bethesda's first attempt. I have zero reason to believe that they wont improve on this issue in the next game just like Bioware and CDPR did. And all I ask is that companies improve on features not achieve perfection. I also know that seeing and doing are two separate things so I don't expect a company trying something new for them to automatically be as good as industry leaders. 

 

The fact remains that paraphrasing will stay because research shows the game is boring without it. It might not be boring to all players but that doesn't matter if the vast majority find it boring then they will make the game for them and not the outliers. Which is rational, it is irrational to think they will make the game for the few.

[KirkyX]

@Gothfather

 

I recall quite a few, 'Uh, nope, definitely not what I was going for there' moments in DA: I--more than I remember from DA2, in fact. I got into the rather unfortunate habit of constantly reloading to try different dialogue options. I'm replaying Mass Effect 1 at the moment, and I actually find it generally easier to have some idea of what Shepard's going to say before I pick the option than in DA: I, though that could be down to my having a relatively decent handle on how that game's dialogue wheel tends to work in terms of positioning. 

 

The Witcher 3's paraphrases are barely paraphrases, which is probably why it has my favourite take on the concept so far. You basically get the line Geralt's going to read, with some punctuation and connectives stripped out. I don't think I ever felt mislead by the dialogue system in that game.

 

I think those more elaborate paraphrases, crossed with a slightly more nuanced take on DA2's personality/tone icons - DA:I did some of that stuff, but the majority of conversations just stuck with the arrows - is the way to go for Andromeda. Like I said in an earlier post, I might actually prefer silent protags - I didn't have your problem with PoE, for example, and preferred DA:O's dialogue system to that of either sequel (Snarky Hawke aside) - but I'd never expect Mass Effect to go down that route. It simply wouldn't be a good fit for the franchise that popularised the dialogue wheel.

[AlanC9]

@Gothfather
 
I recall quite a few, 'Uh, nope, definitely not what I was going for there' moments in DA: I--more than I remember from DA2, in fact. I got into the rather unfortunate habit of constantly reloading to try different dialogue options. I'm replaying Mass Effect 1 at the moment, and I actually find it generally easier to have some idea of what Shepard's going to say before I pick the option than in DA: I, though that could be down to my having a relatively decent handle on how that game's dialogue wheel tends to work in terms of positioning.

Hmm.. DAI isn't all that different from ME1. For non-iconed choices, the typical arrangement is that the top one is cooperative, the middle one is humorous, ironic, or some such, and the bottom one is aggressive.

Any chance you remember a specific instance of a DAI problem?

[KirkyX]

Hmm.. DAI isn't all that different from ME1. For non-iconed choices, the typical arrangement is that the top one is cooperative, the middle one is humorous, ironic, or some such, and the bottom one is aggressive.

Any chance you remember a specific instance of a DAI problem?

It's difficult to recall - it's been a while - but I feel like a lot of it had to do with the sarky options not being sarky enough? Oh, and the 'Star' dialogue always felt a little unpredictable. I know it was supposed to represent options that were only available to you 'cause of stuff you'd done previously, but it generally came across as incredibly scattershot to me. I liked the background-specific special options and icons - the Elf stuff, for example - though.

 

I've come to realise on my current playthrough that the middle options in ME1, by and large, actually aren't all that sarky, by the way--they tend to be 'by the book', contrasting the top's Paragon/Diplomatic and the bottom's Renegade/Harsh. In fact, I've tended to find more snark in the lower options - snarking Parasini about how angry Keira is, for example - than in the middle. I've managed to play a really angry/snarky Paragon, which isn't something I thought you could do.

[Sylvius the Mad]

And here we get ate the actual crux of the issue it isn't the voice acting that is problematic it is the paraphrasing. Which is actually a separate issue and which has improved with each game that Bioware has done.

I believe that Bioware has been honest in their research on this issue, players find it boring to read the answer then watch it acted out. Three companies have research this issue and three companies have ALL come to the same conclusion. One solution is to give an option to allow players to choose to see the whole line. But this is a bigger leap for a company to make than players might think. No developer wants to add what all their research tells him is boring to a game. Getting over that hurtle isn't as easy as just asking for it.

This is why I oppose the voice. The paraphrase only exists because of the voice, and isn't going away as long as we have the voice.

So I want the voice to go away. Until the paraphrases work as well as the full text did, I want the voice to go away.

When I first played ME1 I was was a vocal opponent against paraphrasing because of the WTF moments with paraphrasing. But bioware has taken the criticism over the system seriously and made efforts to solve these issues. I don't recall a single WTF moment in DA:I. Not saying none exist but I can't recall one in my 434 hours of play.

I don't recall any particularly egregious examples from my first playthrough (157 hours) either, though with subsequent characters where I'm working harder at roleplaying different personalities I'm seeing it more.

But it is vastly better than any of their previous attempts.

After playing pillars of eternity and having a NPC only voice act a portion of the text forcing me to reread it was very boring for me.

I had no trouble with that at all, but then I haven't ever really stopped playing those games. I have BG and NWN perpetually installed.

I no longer oppose the paraphrasing because I feel it can work and be improved. Other companies like CDPR have improved this as well but witcher 3 is their third game using it. Bethesda on the other hand a very poor showing on this issue with FO4 but I expected a weaker showing than Bioware or CDPR because this was Bethesda's first attempt. I have zero reason to believe that they wont improve on this issue in the next game just like Bioware and CDPR did. And all I ask is that companies improve on features not achieve perfection. I also know that seeing and doing are two separate things so I don't expect a company trying something new for them to automatically be as good as industry leaders.

Bethesda I give a pass because they provided us with a moddable game. There are mods that remove the paraphrase or the voice or both, and that's how all of these games should be designed.

DAI has effectively fixed the voice. By having most of the lines delivered in a neutral tone, DAI has removed the voice-specific problems. So all we need now is for the paraphrase to offer exactly as much information as the full text did.

The full text didn't just show us what would be said, but it gave us perfect knowledge of what wouldn't be said. That's where the paraphrases have failed so far.

[Sylvius the Mad]

i love this topics, is like reading ppl that are stuck on the early 90s.

Why ppl cant let the past stay on the past. No voice protagonist will be horrible for a game first set on 3 person and second where interactions are on a cinematic dialogue.

I hate cinematic dialogue. I don't think it adds anything to the game.

I would much rather have conversations within the regular game interface while maintaining camera control.

[rocklikeafool]

I hate cinematic dialogue. I don't think it adds anything to the game.

I would much rather have conversations within the regular game interface while maintaining camera control.

I think you're stuck 15 years in the past and better get over it. But that's just me...

[Baboontje]

Ugh, I hope they never, ever return to a silent protagonist. I hated it in DAO. When there was a dramatic scene going on and my character would just stand there either blank faced or with their mouth gaping wide open. And I never had any real issues with either paraphrasing or feeling unable to make the character my own because they had a voice. The only thing I do take issue with when playing a voiced protagonist, is auto-dialogue.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think you're stuck 15 years in the past and better get over it. But that's just me...

DAI reintroduced non-cinematic dialogue. I think I'm doing well.

[Baboontje]

DAI reintroduced non-cinematic dialogue. I think I'm doing well.

I found that to be quite annoying actually. Sometimes it didn't...."hook" right. For lack of a better word. If that happened and I miss-clicked on a dialogue option, my character would use her weapon. Which meant the conversation was over. And sometimes, I couldn't speak to them again after that happened. Like the Justinia spirit in the Fade or that woman in Crestwood who lives near where the dragon is. (Forgot her name.) So I personally would prefer it if they returned to fully cinematic conversations.

[rocklikeafool]

DAI reintroduced non-cinematic dialogue. I think I'm doing well.

Most of the important dialogue in DAI was cinematic or had the camera locked/zoomed. I think you're flailing.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Most of the important dialogue in DAI was cinematic or had the camera locked/zoomed. I think you're flailing.

DAI was a step in the right direction.

 

I look forward to the next step.

[ThomasBlaine]

I think silent protagonists are pretty much out the door, they just doesn't mesh properly with modern graphics and cinematic gameplay. Dynamic characters need to act and speak simultaneously these days, and you can't do that convincingly with silent dialogue trees. I also think that voiced dialogue in RPGs will remain love-it-or-hate-it at best until the developers concede to tripling both the budget and working hours for protagonist voice acting to actually flesh it out.

 

That, or the RPG genre simply conforms to the Witcher/Telltale model where the roleplaying just involves minor variations on the same character. The original ME trilogy already skirted that line, which is probably the reason it worked okay.

[ModernAcademic]

• Wireless Controller: OK
• Online Connection for Consoles: OK
• Cinematic Cutscenes: OK
• Romancing Characters: OK
• Oculus Rift: OK
• 3D Porn: OK

 

Next step for gaming companies: allow players to input their own voice in the PC's dialogs.

 

 

 

 

And even then the players won't be satisfied!!! GAH!!!!!11111!!!!!!!!1111!!!!!!!111111111!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

[Seraphim24]

Ok real talk for a minute here. 

 

I've seen now and people here have persuaded me that Bioware's weakness is really the "story" dimension and their strengths are the "gameplay" and all that. It's often said the other way but I just don't think it's true. 

 

In retrospect, much of the appeal of Bioware games has been the profoundly extreme, almost zealous attention to detail and creating like a hardcore game experience. 

 

Every boss, ability, every tiny bit has been taken to perfection with Ph. D. in physics like precision. 

 

However, on the other hand, while as I say "heralded" for it's story, has that really been the big draw? I don't know, it's not like I don't necessarily like it, but I feel like lots of things were more appealing in that arena. It had much more compared to many games at various times, but at the same time, this whole "story driven" thing just doesn't really seem accurate to me.

 

Anyway, as a consequence, while I agree RPGs have moved in a direction to be more immersive or colorful or whatever, since I don't think that's Bioware's strong point personally I'm not sure they should try and do something outside their comfort zone. If they just focus on making it as appealing and balanced as possible that might be the best strategy, since if nothing else it would appeal immensely to the MP players (which doesn't even have a protagonist, period)

[The Elder King]

DAI was a step in the right direction.

 

I look forward to the next step.

Considering Bioware's history, you might prepare yourself for the step back.

[Seraphim24]

I mean for instance one of the reasons SWTOR was such a catastrophic failure for them is due to their collective poor judgment, frankly, and not to any outside causes or influences, IMHO, such as "EA" which is absolutely ridiculous, IMO. 

 

They failed to understand what made WoW tick, and in doing so ended up kind of losing a lot, so while I respect everyone's desire to say whatever they want here and feel like they absolutely must be right and since no one has to really persuade them they can just keep on going and feeling that way, doesn't it seem like it's actually time to seriously evaluate the direction their going, what kind of games they want to make, and what kind of fans they expect to have?

 

Chasing "the big thing" whether it's story or immersion or whatever or a voiced protagonist or an MMO experience without knowing what you are doing is just a recipe for disaster, and I'm frankly sort of shocked that is still their primary strategy for everything after such an experience.

 

Although you could feel free to remind me, that no one need heed my advice, and maybe you shouldn't, what do I know, right, but for some reason, it seems a little weird to hang on to pride and the inability to connect with those "larger trends" even though these are games being hopefully sold which sustain people's employment and are otherwise you know I don't know kind of important things that should have priority.

 

Just my opinion. 

[The Elder King]

To be fair, almost everyone who tried to compete with WOW failed in doing so.

[Seraphim24]

To be fair, almost everyone who tried to compete with WOW failed in doing so.

 

And to be fair, lots of people/companies never tried, and consequently are often in much better shape now, due to exercising superior judgment, naturally. 

 

But thanks for making my other point, which is that, feel free to make all kinds of excuses or point to other things but the fact remains it was an abject failure due to their poor ability to understand certain things, and they have no one to blame but themselves for that, IMHO. 

 

Or they can continue to do so and jeopardize themselves going forward if they really want, for some reason, I don't know, still doesn't seem like a good idea to me. 

[The Elder King]

And to be fair, lots of people/companies never tried, and consequently are often in much better shape now, due to exercising superior judgment, naturally. 

 

But thanks for making my other point, which is that, feel free to make all kinds of excuses or point to other things but the fact remains it was an abject failure due to their poor ability to understand certain things, and they have no one to blame but themselves for that, IMHO. 

 

Or they can continue to do so and jeopardize themselves going forward if they really want, for some reason, I don't know, still doesn't seem like a good idea to me. 

I'm not making excuses for Bioware. I think making the MMO was a mistake. I'm just saying they're not the only one who thought that they can go up against WOW. Bethesda (As far as I know when I was following the news) failed with its MMO as well.

[Seraphim24]

I'm not making excuses for Bioware. I think making the MMO was a mistake. I'm just saying they're not the only one who thought that they can go up against WOW. Bethesda (As far as I know when I was following the news) failed with its MMO as well.

 

That's exactly what you are doing.

 

I'm just saying, when you have people who have actual salaries or lives depending on this sort of thing... like... Bioware's whole chasing trends thing has been an absolute disaster for them, period, the fallout from that, even worse, to be honest, and yet here even now it's a bunch of people who want to shut themselves off from the world and pretend all those things were just imaginary failings on their part. 

 

Look, Bioware clearly has a bunch of super smart people, and probably a lot of their fans as well, and there's stuff that's just plain missing as well it seems to me. Period. 

 

Insisting on pretending they still know exactly what drives all of gaming is just folly and frankly at some point it may just make just about everyone hate them, IMHO, when they could just be focusing on the things they do best and the things they like best, which if nothing else, will help people understand them, but, IMO, will also lead to solid sales and success and joy and all that. 

[correctamundo]

DAI was a step in the right direction.
 
I look forward to the next step.

  

Considering Bioware's history, you might prepare yourself for the step back.

I'm pretty certain Laidlaw has indicated that the experiment with the non cinematic and non close up camera during dialogue was a failure and that they will be aiming for more cinematic and/or closer camera in the future.

[SKAR]

Why even bring up a silent protag at all? Giving voice to a character, you can relate to them. It's weird that people want that to me. Mark Meer was good and so was Jen Hale. Tell me Jon curry in DAI wasn't a good voice performer.