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[The Elder King]

That's exactly what you are doing.

 

I'm just saying, when you have people who have actual salaries or lives depending on this sort of thing... like... Bioware's whole chasing trends thing has been an absolute disaster for them, period, the fallout from that, even worse, to be honest, and yet here even now it's a bunch of people who want to shut themselves off from the world and pretend all those things were just imaginary failings on their part. 

 

Look, Bioware clearly has a bunch of super smart people, and probably a lot of their fans as well, and there's stuff that's just plain missing as well it seems to me. Period. 

 

Insisting on pretending they still know exactly what drives all of gaming is just folly and frankly at some point it may just make just about everyone hate them, IMHO, when they could just be focusing on the things they do best and the things they like best, which if nothing else, will help people understand them, but, IMO, will also lead to solid sales and success and joy and all that. 

I'm not doing anything on the sort. I'm not pretending that the problems Bioware had were imaginary. I just stated that doing a MMO that competes with WOW is difficult. Beside, it wasn't probably a decision Bioware took, or took alone. EA likely had something to do with decision of making a MMO.

Though I don't think the situation is as drastic as you state. I don't know enough about TOR's sales, but except that every Bioware games  so far since DAO weren't financial disasters. Even DA2 (since it had a small dev cycle and a minor cost) made profits for them, as well as ME3. DAI was on the same situation as well. Regardless of the critics on those games Bioware didn't loss money on those games. Despite what you're saying on them going over what they do good and try to change their way of making games, their games still make solid sales so far.

Beside, I didn't dispute in any way what Bioware should or shouldn't do. All I said here is that they'll likely won't return to a slient protagonist. They're still developing on the exploration and open words themes, as we know already from what they said on Andromeda though. I hope they deliver a better system in this regards of DAI.

 

 

 

 

  
I'm pretty certain Laidlaw has indicated that the experiment with the non cinematic and non close up camera during dialogue was a failure and that they will be aiming for more cinematic and/or closer camera in the future.

It wouldn't surprise me if he said that. So it's likely that MEA will have a more similar system to ME then DAI in this regards. 

[Scarlett]

I personally dislike silent protagonists.

First, a silent main character is just so weird on a game where everybody's talking around you... Second I always had troubles to project myself into a silent character. And last thing, I think it's better for a RPG like ME if the main character can talk and have real exchanges with his friends and crew. I'm for example really glad they decided to dub DA2 and DAI.

[Seraphim24]

I'm not doing anything on the sort. I'm not pretending that the problems Bioware had were imaginary. I just stated that doing a MMO that competes with WOW is difficult. Beside, it wasn't probably a decision Bioware took, or took alone. EA likely had something to do with decision of making a MMO.

Though I don't think the situation is as drastic as you state. I don't know enough about TOR's sales, but except that every Bioware games  so far since DAO weren't financial disasters. Even DA2 (since it had a small dev cycle and a minor cost) made profits for them, as well as ME3. DAI was on the same situation as well. Regardless of the critics on those games Bioware didn't loss money on those games. Despite what you're saying on them going over what they do good and try to change their way of making games, their games still make solid sales so far

 

Well in many ways, they still focus on the same old things that make any of their games successful, so I'm not surprised they are somewhat successful, I'm just saying they also seem attached to "trends" in sort of dramatic ways above and beyond other game companies, and that they don't really seem to just let go of and would be much better for them, considering how negatively that kind of thing can go over. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

I'm pretty certain Laidlaw has indicated that the experiment with the non cinematic and non close up camera during dialogue was a failure and that they will be aiming for more cinematic and/or closer camera in the future.

And when that happens, I will complaint about it, and point to the BioWare games that didn't rely as heavily on cinematics as examples of the direction they should have gone.

I still think their best conversation interface was in NWN.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Why even bring up a silent protag at all? Giving voice to a character, you can relate to them. It's weird that people want that to me. Mark Meer was good and so was Jen Hale. Tell me Jon curry in DAI wasn't a good voice performer.

We shouldn't have to relate to them. We should inhabit them, and the voice gets in the way of that.

In DAO, the same exchange with the same characters with the same lines spoken can have very different meanings depending what you bring in terms of the delivery and motivation. The voice makes this harder to do.

Again, try playing a flamboyant male Shepard. Mark Meer's performance is wholly incompatible with that.

[The Elder King]

Well in many ways, they still focus on the same old things that make any of their games successful, so I'm not surprised they are somewhat successful, I'm just saying they also seem attached to "trends" in sort of dramatic ways above and beyond other game companies, and that they don't really seem to just let go of and would be much better for them, considering how negatively that kind of thing can go over. 

Can you describe those 'trends'?

If you're talking, for example, about the open world approach, in this specific example they're not the only company doing so. A lot of company made/are making games (not only rpgs) while adding the open world in it. It might be because of Skyrim's success, it might be a 'trend' as you say, but Bioware isn't the only one following it. And on the concept I don't disagree, though I think Bioware's approach in DAI needs to be a lot improved. 

And when that happens, I will complaint about it, and point to the BioWare games that didn't rely as heavily on cinematics as examples of the direction they should have gone.

I still think their best conversation interface was in NWN.

The problem is that people has different opinions on this matter (As many others). There are people like you who liked the approach and others who didn't. If Bioware decides/will decide to focus more on a cinematic approach in dialogues it'll probably be because they analyzed that there were more people who disliked it then enjoyed.

Putting aside the fact that, in my opinion, the development on 5 platforms and the related problems affected the ratio of cinematic dialogues and non-cinematic dialogues in favour to the latter, but that's just my opinion.

On this topic, I absolutely have no preference one way or another. I'm able to fit my rp style just fine in both approaches, so whatever they decide i'll be fine.

[Pasquale1234]

Ok real talk for a minute here. 
 
I've seen now and people here have persuaded me that Bioware's weakness is really the "story" dimension and their strengths are the "gameplay" and all that. It's often said the other way but I just don't think it's true.
 
In retrospect, much of the appeal of Bioware games has been the profoundly extreme, almost zealous attention to detail and creating like a hardcore game experience. 
 
Every boss, ability, every tiny bit has been taken to perfection with Ph. D. in physics like precision. 
 
However, on the other hand, while as I say "heralded" for it's story, has that really been the big draw? I don't know, it's not like I don't necessarily like it, but I feel like lots of things were more appealing in that arena. It had much more compared to many games at various times, but at the same time, this whole "story driven" thing just doesn't really seem accurate to me.

I've seen a lot of people suggest that story is the primary appeal of Bioware games, and that is what they seek in the game. As the games have become more and more cinematic, they have become more and more like branching interactive movies interspersed with gameplay. And the MC has come to feel more and more like another NPC, and less and less like a character I can really control.

For me, the appeal of Bioware games has never been story, but world-building and characters. When I want to be told a story, I'll read a novel or watch a video, and I have much more control with those methods of experiencing a story. I can pause, fast forward, rewind, place bookmarks, etc. - none of which have been available thus far in Bioware games.

When I play an RPG, it's with the expectation of creating a narrative via role-play. With the advent of autodialogue, long segments of cutscenes piled on cutscenes, content (questlines, parts of the Citadel, sections of the galaxy map) being inaccessible and meted out bit by bit, it has become all but impossible for me to do that. All I can really do is play through a narrative fully created and realized by its developers.

[The Elder King]

I've seen a lot of people suggest that story is the primary appeal of Bioware games, and that is what they seek in the game. As the games have become more and more cinematic, they have become more and more like branching interactive movies interspersed with gameplay. And the MC has come to feel more and more like another NPC, and less and less like a character I can really control.

For me, the appeal of Bioware games has never been story, but world-building and characters. When I want to be told a story, I'll read a novel or watch a video, and I have much more control with those methods of experiencing a story. I can pause, fast forward, rewind, place bookmarks, etc. - none of which have been available thus far in Bioware games.

When I play an RPG, it's with the expectation of creating a narrative via role-play. With the advent of autodialogue, long segments of cutscenes piled on cutscenes, content (questlines, parts of the Citadel, sections of the galaxy map) being inaccessible and meted out bit by bit, it has become all but impossible for me to do that. All I can really do is play through a narrative fully created and realized by its developers.

I understand your point, and I mostly agree. Though the only game that so far I wasn't able to fully enjoy as roleplaying was ME3. 

I agree on many of the problems you mentioned, though in regards of the silent/voiced protagonist I'm fine either way, since I'm able to fit my roleplay stile in both approaches. I hope that the paraphrases are more and more in tune with what the PC says after though. I honestly don't understand why it's such a big deal for Bioware to not put in the lines the exact/mostly the same phrase the character will say afterwards.

[Pasquale1234]

Putting aside the fact that, in my opinion, the development on 5 platforms and the related problems affected the ratio of cinematic dialogues and non-cinematic dialogues in favour to the latter, but that's just my opinion.

It's also much more expensive to make dialogue scenes fully cinematic.

It's much, much cheaper to write and record dialogue than it is to fully animate it.

I suspect the result of the whining about non-cinematic dialogue will be less dialogue overall. Where budget constraints do not allow them to fully animate dialogue, that dialogue will probably simply be cut (or not written in the first place).

[sjsharp2011]

It works for DAO.

tbh I think that's an exception rather than the rule these days plus with that game enabling you to play different species as well with different origins it was always going to be more challenging to include a voice in that game but I think Bioware has moved on from that, and like the majority of their fans they  will likely want to have voices on their protagonists now and will adjust the story accordingly to accommodate it. But t obe fair for me there is still more than enough role playing opportunities and decisions you can make anyway that make up for this anyway imo.

[The Elder King]

It's also much more expensive to make dialogue scenes fully cinematic.

It's much, much cheaper to write and record dialogue than it is to fully animate it.

I suspect the result of the whining about non-cinematic dialogue will be less dialogue overall. Where budget constraints do not allow them to fully animate dialogue, that dialogue will probably simply be cut (or not written in the first place).

They managed to do so previously, I don't see why they won't be able now. The cost problem didn't happen until DAI, which had 5 platforms of development.

Though it's a possibility that they'd decide to write less dialogues, since Bioware often resolves issues by cutting things instead of trying to fix them. Let's hope that won't be the case.

[Pasquale1234]

I honestly don't understand why it's such a big deal for Bioware to not put in the lines the exact/mostly the same phrase the character will say afterwards.

I think there are a couple of factors at work:

1 - In testing, some of the test subjects have found it "boring" to read a full line and then listen to the spoken line. What that actually suggests to me is that they (the test subjects) view the protagonist's dialogue much like that of any other NPC; they're really just watching the characters and the story unfold rather than expecting to fully know the mind and motivations of the protagonist.

2 - Some of the communication that occurs in cinematic scenes is conveyed via expressions and gestures, not strictly text. Also, some dialogue choices result in the delivery of additional lines of autodialogue - which means that you're not just selecting one spoken line, but several.
 

They managed to do so previously, I don't see why they won't be able now. The cost problem didn't happen until DAI, which had 5 platforms of development.
Though it's a possibility that they'd decide to write less dialogues, since Bioware often resolves issues by cutting things instead of trying to fix them. Let's hope that won't be the case.

I fully expect it will have to be the case.

I do understand that supporting 5 platforms was quite costly, and in several different ways. I think they had to cut back in several areas to accommodate last-gen consoles.

But it simply isn't possible to deliver as many lines of dialogue if you're operating by a rule that says every bit of it must be fully animated.

[The Elder King]

I think there are a couple of factors at work:

1 - In testing, some of the test subjects have found it "boring" to read a full line and then listen to the spoken line. What that actually suggests to me is that they view the protagonist's dialogue much like that of any other NPC; they're really just watching the characters and the story unfold rather than expecting to fully know the mind and motivations of the protagonist.

2 - Some of the communication that occurs in cinematic scenes is conveyed via expressions and gestures, not strictly text. Also, some dialogue choices result in the delivery of additional lines of autodialogue - which means that you're not just selecting one spoken line, but several.
 

I fully expect it will have to be the case.

I do understand that supporting 5 platforms was quite costly, and in several different ways. I think they had to cut back in several areas to accommodate last-gen consoles.

But it simply isn't possible to deliver as many lines of dialogue if you're operating by a rule that says every bit of it must be fully animated.

On the first matter, that's too bad. I do hope they'd at least consider making them more and more similar to what the PC actually says.

 

On the second, I'm not as negative as you, since it was done in the past, but I'm surely concerned about it. Though a middle ground can be found with decreasing the number of non-cinematic dialogues without cutting them all back, if they decide to follow that patch. 

[Pasquale1234]

On the second, I'm not as negative as you, since it was done in the past, but I'm surely concerned about it. Though a middle ground can be found with decreasing the number of non-cinematic dialogues without cutting them all back, if they decide to follow that patch.

I don't believe I'm being negative, just realistic.

Do you honestly believe that every single one of DAI's non-cinematic conversations would have been in place and fully animated if full animation of all dialogue scenes had been their operational rule? I don't. I believe that some of them would have been cut, or possibly never written in the first place.

I would also suggest that a lot of people probably wouldn't have noticed. People don't usually miss what was never there.

But whether any of it is a negative or a positive is really a value judgement. People who place a high value on cinematic conversations might prefer fewer lines' worth of cinematic conversations over more lines' worth of the non-cinematic variety.

[The Elder King]

I don't believe I'm being negative, just realistic.

Do you honestly believe that every single one of DAI's non-cinematic conversations would have been in place and fully animated if full animation of all dialogue scenes had been their operational rule? I don't. I believe that some of them would have been cut, or possibly never written in the first place.

I would also suggest that a lot of people probably wouldn't have noticed. People don't usually miss what was never there.

In DAI, no, I agree with you, we would've less dialogues. But that was DAI, with its cost. I don't see why the same thing might happen in a future game, considering a part of the cost for DAI is already cut by default with the lack of a PS3 and 360 version. 

 

As I said before, I think there's a possibility for less dialogues if they decide to go in a full cinematic dialogue way. There's still a chance they won't, or that they'll still have non-cinametic dialogues, just less, so that they can fill the numbers of dialogues. 

[KirkyX]

I don't believe I'm being negative, just realistic.

Do you honestly believe that every single one of DAI's non-cinematic conversations would have been in place and fully animated if full animation of all dialogue scenes had been their operational rule? I don't. I believe that some of them would have been cut, or possibly never written in the first place.

I would also suggest that a lot of people probably wouldn't have noticed. People don't usually miss what was never there.

But whether any of it is a negative or a positive is really a value judgement. People who place a high value on cinematic conversations might prefer fewer lines' worth of cinematic conversations over more lines' worth of the non-cinematic variety.

I honestly wouldn't mind the non-cinematic dialogue nearly so much if they just had the camera zoom in a bit further--the whole, 'Pan the camera until it's wedged against the floor or whatever so you can actually see the other character's face clearly' thing just felt poorly thought-out. Not nearly as bad as all the 'push A to talk/support' stuff in ME3, but on the way there.

 

Plenty of the dialogue in Mass Effect 1, for example, is actually almost completely static, with the only animations being the sort of stuff you get in DA:I's non-cinematic dialogue - facial expressions and some basic hand movement - and that was fine, or at least much better than those conversations in DA:I. It's just a matter of presentation.

[rocklikeafool]

DAI was a step in the right direction.

 

I look forward to the next step.

Which won't be a silent protagonist, hate to break it to you. The steps forward are not to take steps back.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Which won't be a silent protagonist, hate to break it to you. The steps forward are not to take steps back.

More control is more control. Silent or not, I want more control.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Having more cinematics for dialogue also reduces the number of other cinematics. DAI had race-specific cinematics because the characters were of different heights; that's the sort of thing that's likely to go away if all of the dialogue needs to be cinematic.

[The Elder King]

Having more cinematics for dialogue also reduces the number of other cinematics. DAI had race-specific cinematics because the characters were of different heights; that's the sort of thing that's likely to go away if all of the dialogue needs to be cinematic.

We might not get other races in a future DA games. Bioware is known to change stuff between their games. DA expecially is a rollercoaster with changed between each games. 

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Stop with the horrible voice acting for main characters in RPGs.  I want to be able to role play in my role playing games.  I know Mass Effect never had a silent protagonist but its time to take the series in a bold new direction.  No matter what you did or what choices you made Sheperd was always the same old Sheperd due to the voice acting be it good or bad.  Have faith in us game developers.  Some of us can still use our imaginations from time to time.

 

 

No.

Thanks.

I.

Will.

Pass.

 

This crap again?

When I play an RPG (or any video game for that matter), I generally want to play as anything but a white straight male, because that what I am. Also I find that I get a sore throat from trying to read text in while trying to do my very awful female voice impersonation.

 

Also don't use the tied old "just use your imagination" chestnut with me,. Personally I find it insulting especially to people like with hyper overactive imaginations who use it to escape this crappy world. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

We might not get other races in a future DA games. Bioware is known to change stuff between their games. DA expecially is a rollercoaster with changed between each games.

Cinematic dialogue might be the reason why.

[Saladinbob1]

Ugh, I hope they never, ever return to a silent protagonist. I hated it in DAO. When there was a dramatic scene going on and my character would just stand there either blank faced or with their mouth gaping wide open. And I never had any real issues with either paraphrasing or feeling unable to make the character my own because they had a voice. The only thing I do take issue with when playing a voiced protagonist, is auto-dialogue.

 

Half Life 2 handled this amusingly though. When you first meet Alyx she makes the wry comment of "guessing you're not the talkative type then?"

[The Elder King]

Cinematic dialogue might be the reason why.

It might. Or it might be a different reason. It can be lack of funds, it might be a certain type of story they might want to write, or something else. For DA2 it was a development cost/writing decision, since we didn't get different voices in DAI for every race, and DA2 had tons of cinematic dialogues.

[Sylvius the Mad]

It might. Or it might be a different reason. It can be lack of funds, it might be a certain type of story they might want to write, or something else. For DA2 it was a development cost/writing decision, since we didn't get different voices in DAI for every race, and DA2 had tons of cinematic dialogues.

Even without different races, multiple voices is a great idea. I really hope BioWare keeps doing that.