Aller au contenu

Photo

Go back to a silent protaganist.


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
54 réponses à ce sujet

#26
MerAnne

MerAnne
  • Members
  • 1 173 messages

It's not going to happen and there is no point in asking for it.
 
 


This is a subforum for the DA franchise, which now has a voiced protagonist. They aren't going back. So how do you propose that they cater to both types of fans in the DA franchise? They can't provide a toggle in a single game as the games are designed around the use of voice, such as by showing the paraphrase on the dialogue wheel and also showing the full face of our PC during cinematic conversations, something that DAO did NOT do (we got an over-the-shoulder view of our conversational partner).

ummm - If I can do it in a mod, then I don't know why Bioware can't do it in a game.    The toggle on/off might not work, but I simply made the voiceover files optional.  Don't like amateur voice acting?  Don't use the files.  Facial animations and cutscenes weren't changed.

 

It is POSSIBLE and would be the same as choosing which voice is used for the protagonist.



#27
Nixou

Nixou
  • Members
  • 613 messages
The model of how to build a video game RPG is changing

 

 

The model isn't changing: it's just that western developers are predictably embracing the JRPG model, which is more adapted to the medium's limitation than Bioware's early attempts to emulate pen & paper RPGs with the infinity engine.



#28
Teddie Sage

Teddie Sage
  • Members
  • 6 754 messages
You can beg all you want, they will always reply no. That's not what the majority of their players wants anymore. They want a voiced character. If you don't like it how BioWare deals with their games anymore, I suggest you try new companies. You'll probably enjoy playing games such as Pillars of Eternity or the recent Baldur's Gates enhanced ports.

#29
Baboontje

Baboontje
  • Members
  • 713 messages

So.....you made two similar topics about this....You thought that would help?

 

They will never go back. And I'm glad they won't.


  • Argahawk, Akrabra, Exile Isan et 3 autres aiment ceci

#30
Eelectrica

Eelectrica
  • Members
  • 3 770 messages
It'd be awesome to have the dialog options present in games such as Fallout:NV, Torment POE.

Won't happen though.
  • ThePhoenixKing aime ceci

#31
nightscrawl

nightscrawl
  • Members
  • 7 469 messages

ummm - If I can do it in a mod, then I don't know why Bioware can't do it in a game.    The toggle on/off might not work, but I simply made the voiceover files optional.  Don't like amateur voice acting?  Don't use the files.  Facial animations and cutscenes weren't changed.

 

It is POSSIBLE and would be the same as choosing which voice is used for the protagonist.

 

No, it's not the same. DA2 and DAI were done based around the voice acting. The cinematic shots ALL show the PC speaking and reacting, and the paraphrases are just a suggestion of the spoken line, which you will not fully see unless you turn subtitles on. In comparison, all of the DAO conversations were over-the-shoulder views of the person the Warden was conversing with, or simply facial expression reaction shots in response to the action.

 

There is more to a "silent protagonist" that simply the voice work. People aren't asking for there to be no voice, they want the silent protagonist as it was in DAO so they can have, as they see it, a more immersive feeling.

 

That is a specific design choice for the game as a whole. Turning off the voice is essentially the same as just having no sound. Again, not the same, and not what people are truly asking for when they request a return to the silent protagonist.

 

No one has said that it would be impossible. Bioware has made the choice to have Dragon Age be a voiced franchise and that is how they design the game. That is why they won't be going back.


  • Andraste_Reborn, Exile Isan, DeathScepter et 6 autres aiment ceci

#32
ThePhoenixKing

ThePhoenixKing
  • Members
  • 615 messages

As much as I loved the text-only silent protagonist in Origins, unfortunately, I don't think Bioware will be going back to it anytime soon. Like it or not, the industry is shifting towards voiced characters, though that's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. While I don't think voiced protagonists have been executed all that well in Dragon Age, there's nothing wrong with it in principle, as both The Witcher and Mass Effect have done a great job with the concept. It just seems that, for whatever reason, Dragon Age has an issue with it.



#33
GoldenGail3

GoldenGail3
  • Members
  • 3 777 messages
Personally, I would've peferred DA2 to be silent.. But it's never gonna happen though..

#34
sjsharp2011

sjsharp2011
  • Members
  • 2 676 messages

No, it's not the same. DA2 and DAI were done based around the voice acting. The cinematic shots ALL show the PC speaking and reacting, and the paraphrases are just a suggestion of the spoken line, which you will not fully see unless you turn subtitles on. In comparison, all of the DAO conversations were over-the-shoulder views of the person the Warden was conversing with, or simply facial expression reaction shots in response to the action.

 

There is more to a "silent protagonist" that simply the voice work. People aren't asking for there to be no voice, they want the silent protagonist as it was in DAO so they can have, as they see it, a more immersive feeling.

 

That is a specific design choice for the game as a whole. Turning off the voice is essentially the same as just having no sound. Again, not the same, and not what people are truly asking for when they request a return to the silent protagonist.

 

No one has said that it would be impossible. Bioware has made the choice to have Dragon Age be a voiced franchise and that is how they design the game. That is why they won't be going back.

Yeah I think the fact thiis being how Bioware are handling both their series now kind of indicates this is how hey'er going to do their games now and I don't see them going back either.



#35
Seraphim24

Seraphim24
  • Members
  • 7 432 messages

It's kind of important to note that Bioware never had a purely silent protagonist, you had ample dialogue options in BG1.

 

Shattered Steel is the only one where you literally don't say anything.



#36
correctamundo

correctamundo
  • Members
  • 1 671 messages

We could have silent movie renaissance. It won't happen. But it could.



#37
Exile Isan

Exile Isan
  • Members
  • 1 843 messages

We could have silent movie renaissance. It won't happen. But it could.

 

I wish it would, as I adore silent cinema. 

 

I'm not particularly fond of silent protagonists though. KotOR, Jade Empire, DA:O are great games, the protagonist always seemed static and non-reactive to me. Especially since the people of the world speak, react, and have emotion.* In games like Balder's Gate or NWN where only a few lines are spoken but the rest is text, I have no problem with a silent protagonist as everybody is static and non-reactive.

 

*The only exception to this is The Exile from KotOR II, but that's only because that game is exceptional in it's dialogue.  :P



#38
Remmirath

Remmirath
  • Members
  • 1 174 messages

I still hope that they will eventually at least give an option for this. It would be, for me and many others, so much more enjoyable -- and also rather easy to implement. However, I no longer have any real expectation that they will. It's clearly not what the mass market wants (or at least, the vocal segment of the mass market), and that appears to be the main concern. 
 
Given that the voiced PC appears to be unfortunately here to stay, I can only hope they keep up with expanding the number of options and the array of choices. It'll still be a shackle with regards to roleplaying, but a shackle with a fifteen foot chain is an improvement over a shackle with a five foot chain.
 

This is a subforum for the DA franchise, which now has a voiced protagonist. They aren't going back. So how do you propose that they cater to both types of fans in the DA franchise? They can't provide a toggle in a single game as the games are designed around the use of voice, such as by showing the paraphrase on the dialogue wheel and also showing the full face of our PC during cinematic conversations, something that DAO did NOT do (we got an over-the-shoulder view of our conversational partner).


They definitely could do that if they wanted to. I would quite honestly be happy with even just a toggle to specifically remove the character's voice. It wouldn't take that much to have an optional mode where you skip from the line selection to the next time an NPC speaks, and would have much the same effect as the old method. That would render the paraphrase to be the dialogue in effect, and that would work fine. Would it skip some extra animation sometimes? Yeah. Would I care? No.

Do I think they will do it? No. They've said they won't do that. I wish they would, though, and I'd quite honestly be willing to pay for it as a DLC if they decided to come out with that option. I'm sure at least a decent number of other people would as well.
 

It's kind of important to note that Bioware never had a purely silent protagonist, you had ample dialogue options in BG1.

Shattered Steel is the only one where you literally don't say anything.

 
No, this is entirely different. Baldur's Gate, and indeed Dragon Age: Origins (and pretty much everything in between), had a few set samples of text that triggered in situations like battle or upon selection. They let you choose between several, and essentially served as a sort of "choose what my character sounds like" option, more like picking the character's hair colour than anything else. They were fairly easily ignored if you didn't like any of them (and often there was even a "no voice" option, and if not, it was very easily modded in).
 
That's entirely different from actually having a voice actor read every single line the PC has. Sound clips add to the flavour and don't limit your imagining of how your character is saying the dialogue options. The inflections that the voice actors gives to them definitely do limit roleplaying. That's the biggest problem with voice acting, even larger than not being able to chose the voice to fit the character (having two options in Inquisition was an improvement in that regard, and I do hope that keeps improving if the voiced PC model is going to be used going forward). The manner in which one says something is extremely variable and unique, and it really hinders roleplaying to have that all chosen for you.
 

You can beg all you want, they will always reply no. That's not what the majority of their players wants anymore. They want a voiced character. If you don't like it how BioWare deals with their games anymore, I suggest you try new companies. You'll probably enjoy playing games such as Pillars of Eternity or the recent Baldur's Gates enhanced ports.

 
Pillars of Eternity is great, but it's just one game, and it doesn't help much for people who both do want to play more Dragon Age games and would much rather that they'd stuck to the unvoiced character model. The enhanced editions are also nice in that they make it easier to run Baldur's Gate on different machines and add a few new things, but they really don't count as new games... especially to people who have already been playing the games since they came out originally, and never really stopped.
 

We could have silent movie renaissance. It won't happen. But it could.


Movies and RPGs are two very different things. If you're comparing movies to game genres, adventure games are much more similar, and it makes complete sense to have those be voiced. The CRPG equivalent to silent movies would be to go back to 8 bit 2d graphics with a small sound range.

 

This really isn't about progress or lack thereof. It's about a design choice, and choosing whether to cater to people who really want to roleplay their characters as much as possible or to people who would prefer to simply control their characters. In a way, the choice of words can say it all -- player character versus protagonist. So far, silent is still the best option for the former, whereas voiced is clearly superior to the latter. Short of having the option for both, I see no way to reconcile the two.


  • Eelectrica aime ceci

#39
nightscrawl

nightscrawl
  • Members
  • 7 469 messages

This really isn't about progress or lack thereof. It's about a design choice, and choosing whether to cater to people who really want to roleplay their characters as much as possible or to people who would prefer to simply control their characters. In a way, the choice of words can say it all -- player character versus protagonist. So far, silent is still the best option for the former, whereas voiced is clearly superior to the latter. Short of having the option for both, I see no way to reconcile the two.


This come down to the individual player, and none of what you stated is universally true for everyone. I found that my Inquisitor was the most enjoyable protagonist for me to play across all three games; he is my favorite, and I was able to connect with him on a deeper roleplay level and a big part of that is because of the voice.

 

My roleplay is dependent on the voice, not done in spite of it.



#40
Remmirath

Remmirath
  • Members
  • 1 174 messages

This come down to the individual player, and none of what you stated is universally true for everyone. I found that my Inquisitor was the most enjoyable protagonist for me to play across all three games; he is my favorite, and I was able to connect with him on a deeper roleplay level and a big part of that is because of the voice.

 

My roleplay is dependent on the voice, not done in spite of it.

 

Yeah, I thought I left in a caveat about there being exceptions to that, but apparently I didn't. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone, but I do strongly believe from what I have observed that it is the general case. It's definitely true for the people I know personally, but of course that doesn't necessarily translate to the wider populace.

 

Sometimes I do also think that people are using the world "roleplay" to mean different things from each other on these forums, but I do get the impression that you're using it much the same way I am, so that's probably not the case here.

 

The voice has the opposite effect on me, but Inquisition was in general much better for roleplaying than DA II, so that's not the only variable that goes into it to be sure. I find the way in which people say things to say quite a lot about their character, and if I can't control or imagine how my character is going to say something, I find it very difficult to make decisions and roleplay them properly. Sometimes I have to just try to ignore the spoken lines, but that's difficult, and the nature of the way they've chosen to deal with the voice (I.E., the paraphrasing) makes it really hard to choose the most apropriate line when you don't actually know what it's going to be. It creates a disconnect where I'm trying to get across the character I have in my head and the decisions they would make, but I don't actually know what's going to happen, and often the spoken line is more out of character than the paraphrase would have been -- whereas with no voice for the PC, one is left to imagine the line however one wants, and there's no doubt of what your character is actually going to say.

 

Do you build your character around the voice over time, then? That's the only way that comes to mind that the voice could actually help, but it may be that it's such a hindrance to me personally that I just can't see the ways in which it could be advantageous. I generally have a strong idea of what the character is like from character creation, and if I end up having to fight with the voice and/or the dialogue to get that across, it's a huge annoyance. I like going into a game with a fully formed character and seeing how they react to the world and how the world reacts to them, and if I have to improvise based on what they end up actually saying, it feels less like I'm actually controlling my own character and more like I'm desperately trying to guess how somebody else wanted me to play the game or what character they were intending to be played through the game, which is much less fun.



#41
nightscrawl

nightscrawl
  • Members
  • 7 469 messages

Do you build your character around the voice over time, then? That's the only way that comes to mind that the voice could actually help, but it may be that it's such a hindrance to me personally that I just can't see the ways in which it could be advantageous. I generally have a strong idea of what the character is like from character creation, and if I end up having to fight with the voice and/or the dialogue to get that across, it's a huge annoyance. I like going into a game with a fully formed character and seeing how they react to the world and how the world reacts to them, and if I have to improvise based on what they end up actually saying, it feels less like I'm actually controlling my own character and more like I'm desperately trying to guess how somebody else wanted me to play the game or what character they were intending to be played through the game, which is much less fun.


I originally had a bit about this in my response, but deleted it. One way that it helps is in the difference between male/female. My Inquisitor is a man, but I'm a woman, so hearing the man's voice helps me to get into his head space. This is especially important to me with something like the Dorian romance, since Dorian is gay. I want it to feel like the scenes are between two men, and not myself with my character as a proxy (since I'm a woman). I couldn't do that if I had my own voice in my head.

 

Also, I must say that the accent helps. Obviously, they're not really speaking English with the various British accents, since that language does not exist in Thedas, but they've established that certain groups sound a certain way. Being American, hearing the British accent also helps me to get into the human Thedosian character. It might be different if I played a dwarf or qunari, since they use American accents for those, but I don't.

 

In other words, hearing the voice helps it to not be me.

Another difference is just in the way that the games are designed around the voice. As mentioned in my other posts, the non-voiced games like DAO have an over-the-shoulder view of the PC's conversation partner the entire time. I suppose you might say that it helps to put you in the correct RP mindset since that's how real-life conversations are presented: we don't see ourselves while talking. To me, it only has the effect of pulling me out of the scene. Also, I have a strong sense that my character is a mute in a speaking world, which is just uncomfortable.

In general, the PC in DA2 and DAI just feels more engaged with the world. I find it very difficult to go back to DAO after playing those games.



#42
Duelist

Duelist
  • Members
  • 5 273 messages
We could always ask the silent protagonist if they would like to come back.
I doubt they'll make too much noise about being left behind.
  • nightscrawl aime ceci

#43
Remmirath

Remmirath
  • Members
  • 1 174 messages

I should clarify that I don't dislilke the very notion of having the PC be voiced. If technology should get to the point where you can control the voice as much as you can currently control the face, including at least some control over the inflections used, I wouldn't have a problem with it at all (assuming one was able to know what the actual lines were, but that's a problem with the paraphrasing rather than one with the voice per say).

 

I feel about it now much as I felt about head selection in Knights of the Old Republic, which was the first game I played that had that instead of selecting a portrait for the character. It seemed very limiting, since there were only a handful of heads I actually thought fit any characters I was wanting to play, and it was a big step down from the near-limitless possibilities of finding an appropriate portrait for the character. However, at this point in technology, I'm fine with not having portraits; face creation has got to the point where you can do just about anything, and it's a reasonable replacement. I still like games offering the portrait option, but I consider the two roughly equivalent with tradeoffs now, rather than one to be far superior to the other.

 

However, so far at least, voice customisation has proved to be much more difficult than face customisation. I'd much rather have no voice than a very limited selection of voices, particularly with not being able to control the tone/inflection (which would be really hard to do).
 

I originally had a bit about this in my response, but deleted it. One way that it helps is in the difference between male/female. My Inquisitor is a man, but I'm a woman, so hearing the man's voice helps me to get into his head space. This is especially important to me with something like the Dorian romance, since Dorian is gay. I want it to feel like the scenes are between two men, and not myself with my character as a proxy (since I'm a woman). I couldn't do that if I had my own voice in my head.


Thanks for explaining! I find it very interesting the way different people approach things like roleplaying, really, and I often find myself falling into the trap of assuming that whatever I do must be the thing that most people do -- when of course, it often isn't, as people vary wildly and there's no logical reason to assume that I would tend more towards the average than anyone else.
 
That's not a reason that I would have thought of, although now that you mention it I can see that it would probably make sense for a good number of people. I don't hear my own voice in my head when I read anything, in-game dialogue included, so I hear either nothing at all for a silent PC or whatever voice I'm purposefully imagining (which I only do occasionally, so it's usually nothing). As such, when the PC is voiced, instead of a void to interpret or ignore I'm getting something that may actively contradict what I'm thinking of -- particularly if the voice option(s) don't include one that I like for the character. I do know some people who hear their own voice by default when they read who also prefer silent PCs, though, so I expect they just work harder to imagine the character voice -- I'll have to remember to ask, since now I'm rather curious about that. That sort of level of attention to gender is also something that almost never occurs to me, because gender itself is not something that I've ever really understood on a deep level. I have trouble wrapping my head around it having any effect on personality or making any difference in interpersonal relationships, and I often forget it exists at all as anything other than a grammatical/taxonomical distinction until I'm reminded of it.
 

Also, I must say that the accent helps. Obviously, they're not really speaking English with the various British accents, since that language does not exist in Thedas, but they've established that certain groups sound a certain way. Being American, hearing the British accent also helps me to get into the human Thedosian character. It might be different if I played a dwarf or qunari, since they use American accents for those, but I don't.

In other words, hearing the voice helps it to not be me.


For whatever reason, the character I'm playing never really feels like me, even in games that aren't roleplaying games at all. I generally end up feeling like I'm playing a character even in first person shooters or racing games, and I'd have to actively try and exert a fair amount of mental effort at it to actually come close to playing myself in a roleplaying game. I can see that it would be helpful to have something to distance yourself from the character if you have trouble with that, though. I can kind of understand this, perhaps, in that I prefer to play Elder Scrolls games third person because it's more of an RPG experience for me that way.
 

Another difference is just in the way that the games are designed around the voice. As mentioned in my other posts, the non-voiced games like DAO have an over-the-shoulder view of the PC's conversation partner the entire time. I suppose you might say that it helps to put you in the correct RP mindset since that's how real-life conversations are presented: we don't see ourselves while talking. To me, it only has the effect of pulling me out of the scene. Also, I have a strong sense that my character is a mute in a speaking world, which is just uncomfortable.

In general, the PC in DA2 and DAI just feels more engaged with the world. I find it very difficult to go back to DAO after playing those games.


I do like being able to see the character's face from time to time, but I'm cool with the over-the-shoulder view as well. I'm actually quite neutral about the two cinematic styles, save that the one focusing on the character requires the character to be voiced.
 
I've heard the "mute in a speaking world" thing said quite a lot by people who prefer voiced PCs, but I admit that I mostly assumed it was hyperbole used to express a simple dislike, but here it sounds as though it really does make you feel that way. That's interesting. It's never had that effect on me, nor had it actually occured to me that it would actually have that effect on somebody, and I wonder why that is. The silent PC overall feels more natural and integrated to me than the voiced one, although perhaps some of that is that the voice is often drawing my attention by saying things in a way that I didn't want them to be said (or things that I didn't expect it to say at all).
 
For all my dislike of the voiced PC, except for the paraphrasing and inflection problems (which do show up inevitably), I don't mind the idea inherently if there are sufficient options for voices. If I can select a voice that I feel really fits my character, and if there are enough voice options that I can proceed to select a different one for each subsequent character, I don't mind the simple fact that they are voiced if/when all the problems are worked out -- but having only one voice per gender, even two, is a real strain on replayability. Odds are good that not all of them will even fit any of the characters I might like to play (in DA II, for example, the female voice really didn't fit any character I was interested in playing, so that narrowed my options down to exactly one), and once I've used a voice for one character I'm not going to be able to use it for a different character -- it'll feel too strange, having that character sound exactly the same as the other one. Maybe this is partly because I'm not used to hearing anything at all in my head when selecting dialogue options when the PC is unvoiced, because I know that this specifically isn't as much of a problem with the voiced PC for most other people I know, but it is a big problem for me.


  • DeathScepter aime ceci

#44
Eelectrica

Eelectrica
  • Members
  • 3 770 messages

We could always ask the silent protagonist if they would like to come back.
I doubt they'll make too much noise about being left behind.

The 'Silent' protagonist would have a lot more dialogue options with which to express the desire to come back.


  • Remmirath aime ceci

#45
Andraste_Reborn

Andraste_Reborn
  • Members
  • 4 802 messages

The 'Silent' protagonist would have a lot more dialogue options with which to express the desire to come back.

 

That really isn't true. As far back as BG1, the silent protagonist had the same range of options as the voiced one in recent games the vast majority of the time. Sometimes even fewer! There are a number of conversation hubs in the BG games where you only have two choices.


  • DeathScepter et blahblahblah aiment ceci

#46
Nixou

Nixou
  • Members
  • 613 messages

That really isn't true. As far back as BG1, the silent protagonist had the same range of options as the voiced one in recent games the vast majority of the time. Sometimes even fewer! There are a number of conversation hubs in the BG games where you only have two choices.

 

 

And then there were the conversation hubs with tons of possible answers that all led to the same NPC reaction



#47
Eelectrica

Eelectrica
  • Members
  • 3 770 messages

That really isn't true. As far back as BG1, the silent protagonist had the same range of options as the voiced one in recent games the vast majority of the time. Sometimes even fewer! There are a number of conversation hubs in the BG games where you only have two choices.

More recent offerings do though, such as PoE, FO:NV, the new Shadowrun games giving stat based dialogue choices.

Originally PS:T had several dialogue choices.

I'd cut BW slack for not making full use of what they had when working on BG as it was pretty much there first crack at such a game.


  • DeathScepter aime ceci

#48
Macha'Anu

Macha'Anu
  • Members
  • 211 messages

The whole voiced protagonist dose not work for the Dragon Age franchise.  Being forced to play the main character that the voice actor gives us limits the ability to role play.  Back in Dragon Age Origins players had ALL kinds of Wardens with the same options as the next guy.  But with the silent protagonist we were able to interpret lines and actions how we wanted them.  PLEASE BRING BACK SILENT PROTAGANISTS!  It is the best option for this franchise where you give us the ability to chose who our main character gets to be.

I respectfully disagree. I rather like having a voice instead of looking at a pc just start at everyone while they converse. maybe make it an option but i would rather bioware no take that away.



#49
Andraste_Reborn

Andraste_Reborn
  • Members
  • 4 802 messages

More recent offerings do though, such as PoE, FO:NV, the new Shadowrun games giving stat based dialogue choices.

Originally PS:T had several dialogue choices.

I'd cut BW slack for not making full use of what they had when working on BG as it was pretty much there first crack at such a game.

 

But Dragon Age: Origins worked the same way as Dragon Age: Inquistion when it comes to dialogue options. There were usually three tonal responses, plus maybe some investigative options that now appear on the left side of the wheel, with occasional extras that were unlocked by your class, race or your Persuade rank. It's the same range you get in Inquisition, with the perk-based choices replacing coercion.

 

Even if BioWare went back to a voiceless protagonist, why would they start adding lots of stat-based dialogue like PoE when they didn't do that in any of their previous games with voiceless protagonists?



#50
Eelectrica

Eelectrica
  • Members
  • 3 770 messages

But Dragon Age: Origins worked the same way as Dragon Age: Inquistion when it comes to dialogue options. There were usually three tonal responses, plus maybe some investigative options that now appear on the left side of the wheel, with occasional extras that were unlocked by your class, race or your Persuade rank. It's the same range you get in Inquisition, with the perk-based choices replacing coercion.

 

Even if BioWare went back to a voiceless protagonist, why would they start adding lots of stat-based dialogue like PoE when they didn't do that in any of their previous games with voiceless protagonists?

Yes you're probably right, even if they could, they probably still wouldn't use the system to its full potential.

 

If they do the tactics game, that could be a chance to re-visit the silent protagonist. I'd imagine that game - should it ever come to be a reality would be fairly low budget. They could save $$$ on protagonist VA's and put it towards deeper dialogue trees and include character specific dialogue choices that could also be used as alternative ways to solve and unlock quests.