130 réponses à ce sujet

[Xerrai]

 

But none of that actually happens in the game. If you think relationships with mentally ill people are inherently unhealthy for the other person, well, I respectfully disagree.

And thank god no one got hurt. But a relationship with any mentally ill person always has the potential to become unhealthy by pure virtue of things being out of both of their control. It is not an inherent danger, but a potential one.

 

Not because either of them want to hurt the other, but because things do not have a guarantee of always working out. In one of his withdrawal episodes demonstrated in cut scenes, Cullen started throwing objects that was only a few inches away from hitting the Inquisitor's leg. I can't fault him for throwing a few things, given his situations, but in less fortunate circumstances that would have lead to unintentional injury. If his withdrawal symptoms lead to reoccurring episodes like that--each with the potential to harm somebody--then it is easy to see how a relationship like that has the potential to become unhealthy. Even if it because of factors no one can truly control.

 

I don't fault Cullen for ending up like that, nor do I fault the Inquisitor with trying to help him. But there are always potential risks to go with it, even at the best of times.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Do you expect romances in a novel or a play to be healthy? Is an RPG supposed to constantly reflect an honorable moral system, or be a vehicle through which we live out strictly moral lives? Or is the RPG a vehicle to explore stories through the shoes of the characters therein? 

 

 

Also I would point out that having to slaughter through huge amounts of people, undead, zombies/taint/darkspawn and demons to get to your ultimate goal is unhealthy probably. Probably. 

ok good points

[German Soldier]

I disagree about Merrill having little regard for the lives of others. She asks Hawke to accompany her so they could kill her if she turns so that she won't hurt anyone. 

I'm able to understand the point you are trying to make,however you should realize that she is asking to her LI to kill her.

Hawke and Varric(or any other companion) may have serious issues to try to kill someone for whom they care so yes she is very selfish here.

[BansheeOwnage]

And thank god no one got hurt. But a relationship with any mentally ill person always has the potential to become unhealthy by pure virtue of things being out of both of their control. It is not an inherent danger, but a potential one.

 

Not because either of them want to hurt the other, but because things do not have a guarantee of always working out. In one of his withdrawal episodes demonstrated in cut scenes, Cullen started throwing objects that was only a few inches away from hitting the Inquisitor's leg. I can't fault him for throwing a few things, given his situations, but in less fortunate circumstances that would have lead to unintentional injury. If his withdrawal symptoms lead to reoccurring episodes like that--each with the potential to harm somebody--then it is easy to see how a relationship like that has the potential to become unhealthy. Even if it because of factors no one can truly control.

 

I don't fault Cullen for ending up like that, nor do I fault the Inquisitor with trying to help him. But there are always potential risks to go with it, even at the best of times.

A couple of things:

 

1. That applies to any relationship. They all have the potential to not work out, to become unhealthy. Singling out people will mental problems is not only unfair, it's not useful or accurate.

 

2. I'd like to point out that Cullen isn't just throwing things. He threw his lyrium kit. In other words, for a split-second, he worked up the courage to quit. It's not like he goes around throwing violent tantrums like Kylo Ren. This was a specific case, directed at a specific object, while he thought he was alone.

[German Soldier]

I think there is nothing wrong with Merrill.

You do not need to kill Loghain. Alistair will do if you do not want (Alistair is not Sebastian...).

If the warden don't want to kill Loghain at all?

If the warden is not a noble?

Have we forgotten that in order to survive he need to perform the DR?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

I'm able to understand the point you are trying to make,however you should realize that she is asking to her LI to kill her.

Hawke and Varric(or any other companion) may have serious issues to try to kill someone for whom they care so yes she is very selfish here.

 

That's not having little regard for the lives of others or being selfish. In fact it's the exact opposite, since she is regarding the lives of others over herself.

[BansheeOwnage]

 

I'm able to understand the point you are trying to make,however you should realize that she is asking to her LI to kill her.

Hawke and Varric(or any other companion) may have serious issues to try to kill someone for whom they care so yes she is very selfish here.

 

What? Seriously, that makes no sense. In fact, asking someone to kill you to save others is about as selfless as you can get. No one is saying it's a desirable outcome, and Merrill isn't asking for assisted suicide. She's saying "If I get possessed, kill the demon's vessel, which will happen to be me."

[German Soldier]

What? Seriously, that makes no sense. In fact, asking someone to kill you to save others is about as selfless as you can get. No one is saying it's a desirable outcome, and Merrill isn't asking for assisted suicide. She's saying "If I get possessed, kill the demon's vessel, which will happen to be me."

What?!

Merrill isn't sacrificing herself for who know what kind of greater good,she is gambling with her life for her own obsessions and asking to others to kill her.

 

That's not having little regard for the lives of others or being selfish. In fact it's the exact opposite, since she is regarding the lives of others over herself.

This doesn't make sense,Merril is gambling her life and the one of others the moment she decided to toy with audacity.

Asking to someone(her LI) to kill her is not something selfless because she is not sacrificing herself for the greater good of the universe or for a person she is just obsessed with a mirror.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

What?!

Merrill isn't sacrificing herself for who know what kind of greater good,she is gambling with her life for her own obsessions and asking to others to kill her.

 

This doesn't make sense,Merril is gambling her life and the one of others the moment she decided to toy with audacity.

Asking to someone(her LI) to kill her is not something selfless because she is not sacrificing herself for the greater good of the universe she is just obsessed with a mirror.

 

She is willing to risk her life for the Dalish people, despite said people ostracizing her, by restoring a part of their past. 

[Catilina]

If the warden don't want to kill Loghain at all?

If the warden is not a noble?

Have we forgotten that in order to survive he need to perform the DR?

1. Loghain deserves the execution.

2. It is the Warden's decision. If he dont want Loghain to die, the romance is over.

Not unhelaty, only OVER.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm trying to think of an unhealthy relationship in DAI... and I'm not really thinking of one. There are relationships with unhealthy people, but the relationships themselves tend to be healthy, and help the person involved.

 

The worst is probably Blackwall, since it's built on a deceit. This is iffy- the Blackwall we meet is the only one we've ever known, and the personality and interest are genuine as well- and as far as flawed relationships go, it doesn't even register. Good man with bad past hides bad past for good woman. More at eleven.

 

Solas is probably the worst person all things considered- the least socially adapted- but at the same time, the romance is one of the most humanizing (or elfenizing) things about it- it breaks through his internal bigotries, that people aren't people, and he approaches it seriously and considerately, upto the point where he WON'T exploit the ignorance of his true identity. Solas is a mess, but the relationship isn't.

 

Sera's another person where the relationship is better than the person. Sera's chaotic and immature, with some touchy points- but the relationship is a stabilizing point for her. Hes, people are free to criticize her break-off point following the Temple of Mythal, a clearly stressful and disturbing point for her- but that's an unhealthy or even harmful relationship. It certainly helps Sera stabilize in ways she hadn't before.

 

Cullen is practically a textbook for a good relationship helping someone through a troubled time. Cullen's not healthy- he is addicted- but the relationship ackowledges that, and chooses to deal with that as a couple despite knowing the difficulties. That burden of sharing hardship is very, very healthy- freely given, not exploited, and truly cherished.

 

Cassandra's a boss. A little tacky, maybe, but morally impeccable, unless your morals include demands you be number one in all things forever. Which really wouldn't be healthy.

 

Josephine is another good one. Mature, reasonable adults handle matters in a fanciful but mature, Disney way.

 

 

 

So DAI? Pretty healthy relationships all around.

 

Now, DA2...

 

DA2's friendship romances were pretty risky all around, because they typically entailed indulging flawed or even self-destructive behaviors. Some more than others- Fenris's PTSD could be helped in different ways- but the other three typically entailed avoiding self-responsibility and addressing character flaws. Merrill is a bit iffy, depending on where you stand with her position (though you encourage her obsession), but Isabella and Anders? Friendship Isabella is absolutely encouraging selfishness, greed, and irresponsiblity while Rivalry is putting a boot (and maybe some other things) up her ass to adopt basic morality. While Anders friendmance is absolutely enabling and encouraging increasingly sociopathic obsession.

 

DA2 had some unhealthy relationships.

 

 

As for DAO...

 

Eh, Leliana wasn't unhealthy per see since it was a basic love, Morrigan was questionable since it started bad but became something healthier, Alistair was a guy whose romance didn't really make any of his flaws worse and accentuated his virtues, and Zevran... eh, if you wanted conventional and healthy, you wouldn't have spared him in the first place.

[Andromelek]

So do you judge that Alistair is what- unhealthy for the Warden because she needs to kill Loghain to continue on with him? I mean I suppose I take issue with that because for everyone, even IRL, there are ultimatums and lines to cross in relationships from the petty to the dead serious. Most people could rattle off a number of things that would be major deal breakers in their relationships and say this is the line that shouldn't be crossed. Throughout the entire game the Warden is aware of Alistairs family origin, his attitude, his feelings about what is going on in Fereldan and where his fealty lies. How is this demand such a surprise? The Warden knows what she was into- if she was really concerned- she could have broken up with him per Wynne's advice. 
 
You have that option- which is very healthy.

Seeing that someone that presumably loves you flushes everything you have done for one act of vengeance, without making the minimum effort to understand that there is more in stake, and also throwing the ideals of the order that he supposedly was proud of, is something unhealthy indeed.

I disagree about Merrill having little regard for the lives of others. She asks Hawke to accompany her specifically so they could kill her if she turns into an abomination so that she won't hurt anyone.

Pride Demons are known to be able to outmatch entire platoons of templars, so, Hawke is a poor measure, not to mention that if she is your LI she is throwing a coin in the air and expecting you to kill her in the more than likely case that she gets possessed.

[German Soldier]

She is willing to risk her life for the Dalish people, despite said people ostracizing her, by restoring a part of their past. 

Disagree completely here.

First the Dalish didn't demanded or asked to her anything much less to being gambled by her actions since she toyed with powerful entities of pride and eventually gambled Marethari and the others.As i said her goal isn't the one of a greater good,it is a research made with  wrong methods.

 

1. Loghain deserves the execution.

2. It is the Warden's decision. If he dont want Loghain to die, the romance is over.

Not unhelaty, only OVER.

1.I don't understand what you are trying to say here

I personally refuse for my mindset death penalty(always even for people that are worse than loghain) as such any argument you are trying to make for your "deserve"  is flat for me.

 

2.That's is indeed a form of unhealthy relationship since AListair is abandoning her LI to the blight becasue she did not wanted to take a life.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

I'm trying to think of an unhealthy relationship in DAI... and I'm not really thinking of one. There are relationships with unhealthy people, but the relationships themselves tend to be healthy, and help the person involved.

 

The worst is probably Blackwall, since it's built on a deceit. This is iffy- the Blackwall we meet is the only one we've ever known, and the personality and interest are genuine as well- and as far as flawed relationships go, it doesn't even register. Good man with bad past hides bad past for good woman. More at eleven.

 

Solas is probably the worst person all things considered- the least socially adapted- but at the same time, the romance is one of the most humanizing (or elfenizing) things about it- it breaks through his internal bigotries, that people aren't people, and he approaches it seriously and considerately, upto the point where he WON'T exploit the ignorance of his true identity. Solas is a mess, but the relationship isn't.

 

Sera's another person where the relationship is better than the person. Sera's chaotic and immature, with some touchy points- but the relationship is a stabilizing point for her. Hes, people are free to criticize her break-off point following the Temple of Mythal, a clearly stressful and disturbing point for her- but that's an unhealthy or even harmful relationship. It certainly helps Sera stabilize in ways she hadn't before.

 

Cullen is practically a textbook for a good relationship helping someone through a troubled time. Cullen's not healthy- he is addicted- but the relationship ackowledges that, and chooses to deal with that as a couple despite knowing the difficulties. That burden of sharing hardship is very, very healthy- freely given, not exploited, and truly cherished.

 

Cassandra's a boss. A little tacky, maybe, but morally impeccable, unless your morals include demands you be number one in all things forever. Which really wouldn't be healthy.

 

Josephine is another good one. Mature, reasonable adults handle matters in a fanciful but mature, Disney way.

 

 

 

So DAI? Pretty healthy relationships all around.

 

Now, DA2...

 

DA2's friendship romances were pretty risky all around, because they typically entailed indulging flawed or even self-destructive behaviors. Some more than others- Fenris's PTSD could be helped in different ways- but the other three typically entailed avoiding self-responsibility and addressing character flaws. Merrill is a bit iffy, depending on where you stand with her position (though you encourage her obsession), but Isabella and Anders? Friendship Isabella is absolutely encouraging selfishness, greed, and irresponsiblity while Rivalry is putting a boot (and maybe some other things) up her ass to adopt basic morality. While Anders friendmance is absolutely enabling and encouraging increasingly sociopathic obsession.

 

DA2 had some unhealthy relationships.

 

 

As for DAO...

 

Eh, Leliana wasn't unhealthy per see since it was a basic love, Morrigan was questionable since it started bad but became something healthier, Alistair was a guy whose romance didn't really make any of his flaws worse and accentuated his virtues, and Zevran... eh, if you wanted conventional and healthy, you wouldn't have spared him in the first place.

See then that there is some truth behind this topic?

Look at DAII..

i have some critic for your DAO list

i think that Alistair romance is unhealthy because of the narrative not because of the character

Morrigan really screwed up some wardens with that ritual.

[Catilina]

 

1.I don't understand what you are trying to say here

I personally refuse for my mindset death penalty(always even for people that are worse than loghain) as such any argument you are trying to make for your "deserve"  is flat for me.

 

2.That's is indeed a form of unhealthy relationship since AListair is abandoning her LI to the blight becasue she did not wanted to take a life.

 

 

1. You said: Alistair romance are unhealty, because Alistair forced Loghain's  execution.

2. You refuse the death penality.

 

These facts.

 

Then what is this:

 

 

-Sebastian and his relationship which is forced to be a "spiritual marriage" ,

 

According this Sebastian's romance is unhealthy, because "spiritual marriage". Not because he forced Hawke to kill Anders... with her own hands ... (and threatened with his army)

 

In this case, you approve the death penalty?

I think I detected an anomaly.

 

-----
(Or if Sebastian in love with Hawke, it's not happen?)

[Dean_the_Young]

 

See then that there is some truth behind this topic?

Look at DAII..

i have some critic for your DAO list

i think that Alistair romance is unhealthy because of the narrative not because of the character

 

How so?

 

In the course of the relationship, Alistair is nothing but supportive and protective of a beloved partner as fitting for, well, love. Lots of people were heartbroken when Alistair dies for them, but that's not really unhealthy in and of itself. Whereas the relationship itself can only really break if the player does something that Alistair clearly considers an unfounded and personal betrayal. That sort of thing tends to break any relationship, and considering what Loghain did and why Alistair holds a grudge, ending the relationship over such a perceived betrayal is healthier than the unhealthiness that would be if he didn't and continued it. Alistair himself is brittle and insecure in that particular context, but not only is that context remarkably narrow in applicability, it's not a mark of the relationship itself. If you weren't willing to respect Alistair's views- which are far from remarkably unhealthy or self-destructive when it comes to Loghaine- ending the relationship is probably for the best.

 

 

Morrigan really screwed up some wardens with that ritual.

 

 

Not really. Or rather, not in the context of the relationship she was already having.

 

Morrigan always starts the romance for bad reasons, and as I said that was unhealthy- it was duplicitous, self-serving, and insincere. It also changed. By the time of the Dark Ritual, Morrigan has changed for a much healthier relationship- and now the ritual is the only way to save the Warden. The fact that Morrigan will leave if you don't do the ritual is concerning- but to my (admittedly hazy) memory she doesn't use that as a leverage or emotional stick to abuse you with. It's a case of different priorities, instead of an insincere or abusive relationship, which are my hallmarks for an unhealthy relationship as opposed to one that simply doesn't work out. And without knowing her exact reasons for leaving, we can't assert that Morrigan's imminent departure was because of an unhealthy relationship either.

[German Soldier]

1. You said: Alistair romance are unhealty, because Alistair forced Loghain's  execution.

2. You refuse the death penality.

 

These facts.

 

Then what is this:

 

 

According this Sebastian's romance is unhealthy, because "spiritual marriage". Not because he forced Hawke to kill Anders ... with her own hands ...

In this case, you approve the death penalty?

(Or if Sebastian in love with Hawke, it's not happen?)

I think I detected an anomaly.

In the first post i didn't mention Alistair and Sebastian for the forced execution they desire but for others issues.

What it applies to one it apply to the other.

[Dean_the_Young]

She is willing to risk her life for the Dalish people, despite said people ostracizing her, by restoring a part of their past. 

 

I'm not sure if this is an argument against Merrill being obsessed, or even supposed to be.

 

I'm also not sure if you're treating it as a good thing. There's no inherent good in the statement. Being willing to risk your life despite ostracization for a purpose doesn't actually mean your purpose of restoring a part of the past is good, the ostracization isn't warranted, or that risking your life for such is admirable. Let alone others.

[Catilina]

 

In the first post i didn't mention Alistair and Sebastian for the forced execution they desire but for others issues.

What it applies to one it apply to the other.

 

The two cases are very far apart. And not just because Sebastian do not want to have sex ...

[German Soldier]

The two cases are very far apart. And not just because Sebastian do not want to have sex ...

They share some similarities.

More on the context,you said that an anomaly of double standard was present but it is not because what i said for Alistair is valid for Sebastian as well for me.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

ok serious mode

 

How so?

 

In the course of the relationship, Alistair is nothing but supportive and protective of a beloved partner as fitting for, well, love. Lots of people were heartbroken when Alistair dies for them, but that's not really unhealthy in and of itself. Whereas the relationship itself can only really break if the player does something that Alistair clearly considers an unfounded and personal betrayal. That sort of thing tends to break any relationship, and considering what Loghain did and why Alistair holds a grudge, ending the relationship over such a perceived betrayal is healthier than the unhealthiness that would be if he didn't and continued it. Alistair himself is brittle and insecure in that particular context, but not only is that context remarkably narrow in applicability, it's not a mark of the relationship itself. If you weren't willing to respect Alistair's views- which are far from remarkably unhealthy or self-destructive when it comes to Loghaine- ending the relationship is probably for the best.

 

 

First i never mention the warden commander ending thus i have to ignore that point.

@Andromelek already discussed my belief.

Seeing that someone that presumably loves you flushes everything you have done for one act of vengeance(save his uncle,save his family,help him with his pseudo sister ecc..), without making the minimum effort to understand that there is more in stake, and also throwing the ideals of the order that he supposedly was proud of, is something unhealthy indeed.

 

 

 

 

Not really. Or rather, not in the context of the relationship she was already having.

 

Morrigan always starts the romance for bad reasons, and as I said that was unhealthy- it was duplicitous, self-serving, and insincere. It also changed. By the time of the Dark Ritual, Morrigan has changed for a much healthier relationship- and now the ritual is the only way to save the Warden. The fact that Morrigan will leave if you don't do the ritual is concerning- but to my (admittedly hazy) memory she doesn't use that as a leverage or emotional stick to abuse you with. It's a case of different priorities, instead of an insincere or abusive relationship, which are my hallmarks for an unhealthy relationship as opposed to one that simply doesn't work out. And without knowing her exact reasons for leaving, we can't assert that Morrigan's imminent departure was because of an unhealthy relationship either.

 

Yes really.

You are admitting that it was self-serving,insincere and duplicitous from the beginning and that it can culminate with her leaving at the eve of battle.

The ritual isn't the only way to survive for the warden and she know it,in fact right before to leave she is hoping for the regret of the partner in survival case.

It's like you said is a matter of hallmarks here and some perspectives are different from the others the important thing is that they are somehow supported by some points and this romance can be seen as unhealthy in these conditions

[Catilina]

 

They share some similarities.

More on the context,you said that an anomaly of double standard was present but it is not because what i said for Alistair is valid for Sebastian as well for me.

 

But this topic is not about to agree the death penalty, rather that some DA romances are unhealty or not.

 

Alistair romance itself is not unhealthy. Alistair not prepared to blackmail his love. Do not planned it. He decided immediately and the love was over ... This is not an unhealthy relationship, but a nasty breakup.
 

[Andromelek]

But this topic is not about to agree the death penalty, rather that some DA romances are unhealty or not.
 
Alistair romance itself is not unhealthy. Alistair not prepared to blackmail his love. Do not planned it. He decided immediately and the love was over ... This is not an unhealthy relationship, but a nasty breakup.

What about killing Loghain and still having Alistair dropping you because is a King's thing to have a heir? Even friendship with him seems rather unhealthy as he'll speak crap of the Warden for choosing to not die nor kill anyone by killing the Archdemon.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Yeah Cassandra is a monster for being romantic and appreciating someone who is willing to do things that make her happy. It's almost like she resembles most human relationships.

How is enjoying being wooed in a traditional method analogous to demanding an expensive wedding? I'm missing the middle step in this leap of logic.

 

Cassandra is not a monster but she is an unnecessarily demanding woman who demands things from you under the guise of:- "Its romantic !". She is High Maintenance woman.

 

Okay, she wants to be wooed, but what does she do in return for the Inquisitor ? That's right, she does nothing in return for the Inquisitor - She just keeps demanding more. What does she say in Trespasser when the Inquisitor brought up marriage - "Not romantic enough."

 

Its okay to be demanding and to set up a lot of hoops for a man to jump through like a pathetic circus animal if the woman in question offers something that is equivalent or something that exceeds her demands. Cassandra doesn't. She does absolutely nothing for your Inquisitor while romanced - She does not buy him any gifts, she does not take him out somewhere nice, and she does not even do a Leliana if she becomes a Divine.

 

Cassandra's romance is very one-sided. Its just - "I want this, I want that and its everything about what I want because its romantic. You ? You don't really matter." So yes, Cassandra's romance can be considered toxic, unless of course if you are the kind of man who has no self respect and likes being exploited.

 

Contrast that with Josephine. Josie is just happy to have your Inquisitor be just as they are, which is weird and wonderful because the Inquisitor will be gone off for weeks or even months on missions, returning to Skyhold for a few moments before going off again. Logically, Cassandra should be the more accepting one because she is a follower and can follow you around instead of just being in Skyhold which should theoretically result in Cassandra getting to know the Inquisitor better due to sheer time spent around the Inquisitor. Josephine also does not demand you to fight Otranto, she tells you not to do it and let her figure it out, you are the one who goes and challenges him to a duel. She also takes the Inquisitor out for a date at the opera and when its all over, you get to stay at her home in Antiva and be accepted as part of the Montilyet family. 

 

You do realize that his ultimatum is death?He is demanding death, if the warden is against it for practical and moral reasons this "ultimatum" is  just an act of prepotency.

 

Yes, Alistair is unnecessarily whiny, that is just part of his character. I mean, Duncan would have recruited Loghain and I wish the Warden could say that to Alistair when he demanded Loghain's death instead of Warden conscription at the Landsmeet.

 

Its why Zevran is awesome, well other than the fact that he might have STDs.Happily, only Isabela is shown to have STDs in game so Zevran is one lucky boshtet.
 

[Seraphim24]

The relationships all have problems in them because nobody is interested in a story where everyone always does the right thing.

 

I am interested stories that move in such directions.