130 réponses à ce sujet

[lynroy]

Seriously?

[Seraphim24]

 Being willing to risk your life despite ostracization for a purpose doesn't actually mean your purpose of restoring a part of the past is good, the ostracization isn't warranted, or that risking your life for such is admirable. Let alone others.

 

In my opinion, it tends to mean it isn't good.

 

Anyway, more on topic I would say it's fair that DA characters and relationships are incredibly high maintenance in many different ways, so, certainly exhausting, perhaps.

 

Although Alistair and such go against that grain moreso, so depending if we're talking about Origins or the others.

[ModernAcademic]

The relationships all have problems in them because nobody is interested in a story where everyone always does the right thing. If people don't make bad choices and have mistakes to overcome theres no story to tell. I don't feel like the game endorses any of the mistakes the characters make, so I don't see the issue.

 

This is so true I always thought it weird that once you had a fight with your LI and broke up, you couldn't try to make amends, engage the romance again when both parties had cooled off a bit and started missing each other's company or at least just try to be friends again. 

 

I mean, one fight and its like goodbye forever, I never wanna be with you again. Seriously?

[nightscrawl]

This is so true I always thought it weird that once you had a fight with your LI and broke up, you couldn't try to make amends, engage the romance again when both parties had cooled off a bit and started missing each other's company or at least just try to be friends again. 

 

I mean, one fight and its like goodbye forever, I never wanna be with you again. Seriously?

 

As much as I like the romance aspect of these games, they're not relationship sims. They can't feature everything that can go on in a romantic relationship. Part of these has to be done in a gamey way because it IS a game, which is why we have romance quests and such. I'd also argue that that is a good thing. While I would like more romantic opportunities, I also like the fact that I can leave a large part of it up to headcanon for my Inquisitor to act befitting his personality.

 

That said, different romances handle things in different ways. I've never done it, but I understand that if you initially tell Dorian that you want it to be "just fun," you can change your mind later on. There are also the different ways that romances handle sex, for which DAI was a major improvement in allowing it to be either an optional, or non-existent aspect of some of the romances.

[Fredward]

What's a romance without wangst?

[Almostfaceman]

This is so true I always thought it weird that once you had a fight with your LI and broke up, you couldn't try to make amends, engage the romance again when both parties had cooled off a bit and started missing each other's company or at least just try to be friends again. 

 

I mean, one fight and its like goodbye forever, I never wanna be with you again. Seriously?

 

Well, this is why I never agree with anyone who says these games are dating sims (not saying you're in that camp, I don't know). 

 

They have made improvement. In Mass Effect, I was in a romance with Ash without even knowing I was... aaannnnddd it was almost that bad with Liara. 

 

With ME2, there was no friendship path. I wanted to talk to Jack and be friends, possibly helping her slightly with her PTSD. Suddenly the game is trying to tell me I'm trying to romance her. 

 

In Inquisition, there's none of that.

 

Is there still room for improvement? Sure. We'll see how far they go with romance since they still have to balance out what kind of game they're trying to design. Probably, with improvements in technology and a steady market for romance, they'll be able to put more and more in the game of many aspects. 

[Dean_the_Young]

 

ok serious mode

First i never mention the warden commander ending thus i have to ignore that point.

@Andromelek already discussed my belief.

Seeing that someone that presumably loves you flushes everything you have done for one act of vengeance(save his uncle,save his family,help him with his pseudo sister ecc..), without making the minimum effort to understand that there is more in stake, and also throwing the ideals of the order that he supposedly was proud of, is something unhealthy indeed.

 

Painful, but not unhealthy. What you have is a disagreement on what is important, and what is necessary, and what the the ideals of the order that he is proud of are. Alistair, from the start, has always had a rosier picture of what the Order is.

 

Alistair does not 'fluses everything you have done.' What you have done is not gone or taken away. It simply does not entitle you to hold over something he actually does hold. Which is an attitude- 'swallow your feelings on X because I've done Y and Z'- that is very unhealthy for a relationship. It's a destructive sort of entitlement that tries to dictate what a partner can and can not feel is important, and ignores any other efforts the partner would have made. You can claim to have helped him with his Uncle- and he's helped you, and stood by you, on every single other decision, no matter how wicked.

 

 

So I suppose I would have to agree that if you go into a relationship with Alistair with that mind set, it would be unhealthy... because of you. You'll probably reject that, of course, but people who cause unhealthy relationships typically deny they're the problem and seek to cast blame elsewhere. Part of why they make relationships unhealthy- fixating on the flaws of a partner to transfer all blame of relationship issues to them.

 

 

Yes really.

You are admitting that it was self-serving,insincere and duplicitous from the beginning and that it can culminate with her leaving at the eve of battle.

The ritual isn't the only way to survive for the warden and she know it,in fact right before to leave she is hoping for the regret of the partner in survival case.

It's like you said is a matter of hallmarks here and some perspectives are different from the others the important thing is that they are somehow supported by some points and this romance can be seen as unhealthy in these conditions

 

 

Of course I said it was insincere at the start. That was a point in my very first post. The key word, however, is start.

 

What I disagree about is that it remains self-serving, insincere, and duplicitous, even if she leaves. The nature of the relationship changes, and her attitude at the start is not her view at the end.

 

Those are labels that depend on her motives, and after her character development her motives are ambiguous enough that we don't know if they're self-serving (Morrigan rarely seems to acrue some personal advantage at the cost of others- her position on the preservation of Ancient Things is that it's a good in and of itself, and action for a independent cause isn't self-serving), insincere (we have no reason to doubt her assertions of believing in the preservation of things), or duplicitous (not telling is not the same as actively lying, particularly if there are reasons for ommisions, and we've no reason to believe a romanced Morrigan keeps the Warden in the dark if they follow through the Eluvian during Witch Hunt).

 

The Ritual isn't the only way for the Warden to survive- but it is the only way for both wardens to, and it is a way to boost the odds that either one specifically does.

[DuckSoup]

Aren't they just realistic? All relationships, sexual or otherwise, come with varying degrees of bullsh*t. If everything were easy, it'd be boring. That is also why endings should not always be rosy. As painful as it is, sometimes you shouldn't get what you want. The good guy shouldn't always come out on top.

[Seraphim24]

Why do people always assume their relationships are like everyone elses in the world? 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Aren't they just realistic? All relationships, sexual or otherwise, come with varying degrees of bullsh*t. If everything were easy, it'd be boring. That is also why endings should not always be rosy. As painful as it is, sometimes you shouldn't get what you want. The good guy shouldn't always come out on top.

 

Most healthy and fulfilling relationships do not involve attempts of sperm jacking or terrorist blowing up buildings or plans to destroy the world .

 

Fyi, many good, healthy and fulfilling relationships are sometimes boring. You know why ? Because there is no drama in them, the partners just accept one another and work out the occasional issues they do come up against.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Why do people always assume their relationships are like everyone elses in the world? 

 

People don't. I highly doubt the overwhelming majority out there have relationships with a terrorist or with a mass murderer or with a sperm jacker.
 

[mrs_anomaly]

I don't expect my relationship in this game to be the pinnacle of healthy. I have a very healthy relationship IRL for over 20 years with my husband and this is a game which is a form of entertainment. I have been entertained. 

[DuckSoup]

Most healthy and fulfilling relationships do not involve attempts of sperm jacking or terrorist blowing up buildings or plans to destroy the world .
 
Fyi, many good, healthy and fulfilling relationships are sometimes boring. You know why ? Because there is no drama in them, the partners just accept one another and work out the occasional issues they do come up against.

That's quite a touchy response.

I was generalising, but of course I know that not all relationships have drama nor do they need it to be successful. I am happily married, in a stable relationship that goes through normal every day stuff with a beautiful two year old. And I'm not complaining. But why also assume that just because there is a bit of drama or some crazy going's on in a relationship that it's automatically unhealthy? People have different ways of dealing with different situations and some thrive on that sort of stuff. I'm not into swinging, for example, but some couples get on just fine with it.

I don't think my point is invalid just because you disagree with it.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Painful, but not unhealthy. What you have is a disagreement on what is important, and what is necessary, and what the the ideals of the order that he is proud of are. Alistair, from the start, has always had a rosier picture of what the Order is.

 

Alistair does not 'fluses everything you have done.' What you have done is not gone or taken away. It simply does not entitle you to hold over something he actually does hold. Which is an attitude- 'swallow your feelings on X because I've done Y and Z'- that is very unhealthy for a relationship. It's a destructive sort of entitlement that tries to dictate what a partner can and can not feel is important, and ignores any other efforts the partner would have made. You can claim to have helped him with his Uncle- and he's helped you, and stood by you, on every single other decision, no matter how wicked.

 

 

So I suppose I would have to agree that if you go into a relationship with Alistair with that mind set, it would be unhealthy... because of you. You'll probably reject that, of course, but people who cause unhealthy relationships typically deny they're the problem and seek to cast blame elsewhere. Part of why they make relationships unhealthy- fixating on the flaws of a partner to transfer all blame of relationship issues to them.

 

 

I reject it indeed

Alistair   will be fine and follow us if we :

 kill Connor or Isolde, Wipe out the Circle , Preserve the Anvil where Dwarven souls will be forged into Golems, Kill the Dalish Elves, Leave Redcliffe to the zombie horde, sell Elves into slavery (which would give us no reason to condemn Loghain), work with a possessed corpse at one point and  murderknife people left and right

He seem like someone who has no concept of where he stands on anything,that he is more willing to accept slavery and follow the Warden rather then work with Loghain and dirsupt the relationship for that makes me really see his romance and critical moments as controversial.

 

 

 

Of course I said it was insincere at the start. That was a point in my very first post. The key word, however, is start.

 

What I disagree about is that it remains self-serving, insincere, and duplicitous, even if she leaves. The nature of the relationship changes, and her attitude at the start is not her view at the end.

 

Those are labels that depend on her motives, and after her character development her motives are ambiguous enough that we don't know if they're self-serving (Morrigan rarely seems to acrue some personal advantage at the cost of others- her position on the preservation of Ancient Things is that it's a good in and of itself, and action for a independent cause isn't self-serving), insincere (we have no reason to doubt her assertions of believing in the preservation of things), or duplicitous (not telling is not the same as actively lying, particularly if there are reasons for ommisions, and we've no reason to believe a romanced Morrigan keeps the Warden in the dark if they follow through the Eluvian during Witch Hunt).

 

The Ritual isn't the only way for the Warden to survive- but it is the only way for both wardens to, and it is a way to boost the odds that either one specifically does.

I just need to mirror you with your own words.

 

"her stated agenda of preserving the past is undermined for the fact that she hordes secrets rather than share knowledge"

 

 I am aware that they imply they don't want it, but do they say anything that implies there will be worse consequences than an ancient being of magic being permanently destroyed? Because that alone seems to be, under the belief system Flemeth taught Morrigan, a serious problem. In fact, Morrigan represents killing dragons as a bad thing because they are powerfully magical beings, and if I remember correctly she says that this is true regardless of how dangerous they are  I'm willing to agree with them that the Old Gods should be preserved, if and only if they tell me their rationale and give a better one than "magic should be preserved regardless of the danger."

I don't know that any of them can be trusted to want to preserve the Old Gods for the reason of preventing bad things from happening, when in each of their cases we have reason to believe that they want to preserve and encourage magic whether or not bad things happen as a result of it.

Morrigan outright lie at the beginning of the game and continue to deceive the warden until the very end when she tries to use love to spermjack them 

 

 

The warden doesn't need it in order to survive why i should care for those other warden which is accompanying me?They are not part of the equation.

 

 

[stop_him]

Most of the romances seem fine to me with only a couple of "unhealthy" exceptions:

Cullen on lyrium (even if it is temporary)

Qun IB

Solas

[Andromelek]

Painful, but not unhealthy. What you have is a disagreement on what is important, and what is necessary, and what the the ideals of the order that he is proud of are. Alistair, from the start, has always had a rosier picture of what the Order is.

Alistair does not 'fluses everything you have done.' What you have done is not gone or taken away. It simply does not entitle you to hold over something he actually does hold. Which is an attitude- 'swallow your feelings on X because I've done Y and Z'- that is very unhealthy for a relationship. It's a destructive sort of entitlement that tries to dictate what a partner can and can not feel is important, and ignores any other efforts the partner would have made. You can claim to have helped him with his Uncle- and he's helped you, and stood by you, on every single other decision, no matter how wicked.


So I suppose I would have to agree that if you go into a relationship with Alistair with that mind set, it would be unhealthy... because of you. You'll probably reject that, of course, but people who cause unhealthy relationships typically deny they're the problem and seek to cast blame elsewhere. Part of why they make relationships unhealthy- fixating on the flaws of a partner to transfer all blame of relationship issues to them.

I never said he was not allowed to have feelings... but betraying the Order and therefore the Warden for a simple tantrum that is merely based on revenge is not right ....neither throwing a non Cousland Warden like if she was nothing when he is made King.

[Jedi Comedian]

What's a romance without wangst?

Pretty much crap.

[BansheeOwnage]

Pretty much crap.

I disagree. I don't need my romances to be over-dramatic, just romantic. In real life or otherwise.

[Fylimar]

Unhealthy? I don't think that this applies to any relationship (well ... maybe Solas for obvious reasons?)  - complicated would be the better word.

 

And I found the Zevran relationship very nice and compared to most others very uncomplicated in a good way. The Warden has the complications with Zevran at the beginning, it gets better soon after that. The romance is very cute.

 

As for Dorian: he never said that he was ok with slavery, he only said, that he didn't know it was unnatural and forbidden in other countries, he grew up with it and didn't questioned it before he started travelling. He was just being honest about that.

[SandiKay0]

Let me get this straight in my mind...

You leave a swathe of blood from Ostigar to Denerim, with Loghain trying to kill you all the while and it is Alister's desire for Loghain to die at the Landsmeet that makes you turn moral high ground when he has said Loghain needs to die since leaving Ostigar? And that makes him an unhealthy romance because when you finally face the man who has been trying to kill you for a year you decide that you don't want to because IRL you see that as unreasonable?

[Donk]

This forum and its moronic inhabitants are unhealthy.

I only advise use in the event of constipation.

[Catilina]

Many of the self-proclaimed psychologist and moralist ...

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Let me get this straight in my mind...

You leave a swathe of blood from Ostigar to Denerim, with Loghain trying to kill you all the while and it is Alister's desire for Loghain to die at the Landsmeet that makes you turn moral high ground when he has said Loghain needs to die since leaving Ostigar? And that makes him an unhealthy romance because when you finally face the man who has been trying to kill you for a year you decide that you don't want to because IRL you see that as unreasonable?

 

He is not on Morrigan or Anders or Solas or Isabela levels of unhealthy but come on, Alistair knows that Wardens do whatever it takes. Duncan would have conscripted Loghain. The Hero of Ferelden is doing what is necessary and practical instead of pointlessly wasting life like Loghain did as Ostagar. This should be commended, not be a cause for Alistair to dump the Warden.

[vbibbi]

 

You clearly missed the fact that the first part of the post was a copy paste from another user whom i mostly agree,i copied the post as it was and even specified where it was German soldier post.

Among all the characters i mentioned i have no issue with Cassandra thus suffice to say that unless you want to argue about any of the others i don't see the issue.

Also did i ever said that Cassandra is a monster?

 

 

Sorry, I wasn't directing my response at you specifically, just the content that you posted. Although if you basically agree with the content of what you posted, I'm not sure what the difference is?

 

Me saying Cassandra is a monster was just a response to the gross exaggeration of wanting romance to being similar to gold diggers who want money more than healthy relationships.

 

I think the only relationship in DAI that's definitely bad for the Inquisitor is the one with Solas, for obvious reasons. You could argue that the Blackwall romance is, too. (My Inquisitor who romanced him wouldn't agree, though.)
 

Other than that - your relationship with Iron Bull ends in the worst possible way if you tell him to sacrifice the Chargers, but if you don't it's happy and positive. And monogamous, if that is a thing you care about. Sera and a Dalish elf might go bad in a less dramatic way after the Temple of Mythal.

 

So that leaves Cassandra, Cullen, Josephine and Dorian - half the romances in the game - which are not 'toxic' in any way. Sure, none of them are perfect people, but I don't think any of those relationships are unhealthy.

 

Out of curiosity as I've not played the IB romance, is there a conversation about monogamy either in the base game or in Trespasser? The scenes I saw on youtube indicated that the relationship began as a friends with benefits situation, and no discussion of the future was provided. But I don't know that I saw the culmination of the romance.

 

There is a difference between something that is "unhealthy," that is damaging to either person in the long or short term, and something that has emotional or angsty components.

 

I am quite satisfied with the way the Dorian romance plays out as it does for both men in the relationship. For Dorian, there is healing and growth involved, and it seems an overall positive experience for him. My Inquisitor is certainly not pleased that they will be apart, but sees the necessity of it. But I don't think that any of it is unhealthy.

 

 

[edit]

It's not merely about disliking some aspect of a person's personality, or disagreeing with them on some issue (like with Dorian on slavery). It is about whether the relationship itself is damaging in some way to either person, or based around negative components like deceit and abuse.

 

What is your take on the Dorian-IB relationship? I've sadly not actually seen it in my games (thanks banter bug) but it seems polarizing on the boards. Some people think it's romantic, and I think Weekes and/or Gaider confirmed that this was their intention, and some people think it's unhealthy.

 

A couple of things:

 

1. That applies to any relationship. They all have the potential to not work out, to become unhealthy. Singling out people will mental problems is not only unfair, it's not useful or accurate.

 

2. I'd like to point out that Cullen isn't just throwing things. He threw his lyrium kit. In other words, for a split-second, he worked up the courage to quit. It's not like he goes around throwing violent tantrums like Kylo Ren. This was a specific case, directed at a specific object, while he thought he was alone.

 

As someone who suffers from long term depression and anxiety, I don't think it's unfair to label relationships with one or both members dealing with mental illness as potentially more difficult than others. It's not singling out people with mental illness as dangerous or inherently poor at interpersonal relationships. Just saying that when mental illness is involved with human relationships, there's automatically more challenges to deal with than if mental illness is not involved. From a long term perspective.

 

Of course everyone is going to have bad days and some people could be emotionally abusive without having any mental illness or there could be any number of reasons why a relationship could be unhealthy that don't involve mental illness at all. But IMO it's likely that if a mental illness is involved, everything else equal, over the long term there is greater potential for conflict.

[nightscrawl]

Out of curiosity as I've not played the IB romance, is there a conversation about monogamy either in the base game or in Trespasser? The scenes I saw on youtube indicated that the relationship began as a friends with benefits situation, and no discussion of the future was provided. But I don't know that I saw the culmination of the romance.

I can't answer to the greater part of the romance as I haven't seen or played through any of it. However, I do know that in Trespasser you can bring up the idea of marriage with him and he says he will consider it, or something along those lines.