130 réponses à ce sujet

[SandiKay0]

Alister was a grey warden for six months. Duncan was a grey warden longer than Alister was alive. Duncan has seen the places where the blighted lands still can't support life. He knows what is coming, I believe Duncan wouldn't have hesitated for a moment to take Loghains head himself. After you learn that it was Loghain who opened the tunnels in the tower, and asked for Alister to light the beacon. His intention was to have both of Maric's sons die in Ostigar to save Fereldan from Orlais?

And you think saving him would be what Duncan would have wanted? I belive Duncan would see it as this Loghain is one man, who has torn apart a country that desprately needed to come together to fight the dark spawn. He was in the way of achieving the grey warden goal. And Duncan has known Loghain and his distrust of wardens for far longer than Ostigar.

Believing Alister an unhealthy romance when you want to recruit the man who arranged for the fall of Duncan a man Alister respected and loved is unreasonable, if you romanced him or became his friend you already knew this. Alister wanting the man dead ins't.

[nightscrawl]

^ I'm not getting into the whole Alistair romance bit, but I will remark on Duncan. The reason people say that Duncan would have spared him, or even allowed Loghain to undertake the Joining, is that, as you say, he has been around longer and has seen all of that. Duncan is prepared to do what it takes, and he knows that in that situation every Grey Warden counts. With Riordan, there are only three. What if any one of those three has some stupid death on the way to the Archdemon? It could have happened. Riordan himself died bringing the dragon down to land, leaving only two.

 

It's not that Duncan would have spared Loghain because he forgives him, or sees that he's not a bad guy, or anything like that. Emotion can not, and should not, factor into making this decision. But Alistair is young and looking at the Wardens through rose-tinted glasses. He thinks that Loghain does not deserve the honor of becoming a Warden, whereas that (likely -- we can't know for certain, after all) wouldn't factor into a decision for Duncan because he has that maturity and experience.

 

However, it should be stated that, at the time the Landsmeet decision is made, neither Alistair nor the player knows about the requirement of needing a Warden to truly slay the Archdemon.

[Vanilka]

We don't know what Duncan would've done. The way I see it, why would Duncan conscript somebody who is likely to stab you in the back because he's tried to kill the Wardens so many times already and is more interested in playing tug-o-war with the nobles than doing what's best to fight the Blight? Who's more afraid of Orlesians than the darkspawn? Loghain is just in the way. Potential threat while alive/free because he's so paranoid. Why not have somebody like Sten or Leliana or Oghren or Zevran who have actually proved themselves? Because the game is not written that way. That's why. If we could choose whomever we wanted, this would be a non-issue. There's no lack of remarkable and trustworthy warriors in that room. Well, unless you make a point out of travelling with Alistair alone like a couple or something.

[Andromelek]

Alister was a grey warden for six months. Duncan was a grey warden longer than Alister was alive. Duncan has seen the places where the blighted lands still can't support life. He knows what is coming, I believe Duncan wouldn't have hesitated for a moment to take Loghains head himself. After you learn that it was Loghain who opened the tunnels in the tower, and asked for Alister to light the beacon. His intention was to have both of Maric's sons die in Ostigar to save Fereldan from Orlais?
And you think saving him would be what Duncan would have wanted? I belive Duncan would see it as this Loghain is one man, who has torn apart a country that desprately needed to come together to fight the dark spawn. He was in the way of achieving the grey warden goal. And Duncan has known Loghain and his distrust of wardens for far longer than Ostigar.
Believing Alister an unhealthy romance when you want to recruit the man who arranged for the fall of Duncan a man Alister respected and loved is unreasonable, if you romanced him or became his friend you already knew this. Alister wanting the man dead ins't.

First the name's Alistair.

Second, Duncan would have taken Riordan's advice, definitely, he was a veteran and knows what is necessary for the order, killing Ser Jory was proof of that, and he was caught by Genevieve trying to rob her when she recruited hime... Or that's what the HoF was told (actually he killed her boyfriend) So he knows not all Wardens have a good start

Third, I'm not sure where is the proof that Loghain opened the tunnels, but I know that Cailan's plan was mostly stupid, the retreat at least saved some people, Cailan was doomed anyway.

[nightscrawl]

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT DUNCAN WOULD'VE DONE.

I did allow for that in my post.

 

Why not have somebody like Sten or Leliana or Oghren or Zevran who have actually proved themselves? Because the game is not written that way. That's why. If we could choose whomever we wanted, this would be a non-issue. There's no lack of remarkable and trustworthy warriors in that room.

This is really what makes the whole thing so gimmicky in the first place. It turns out you don't even need Archdemon blood, but even if Riordan didn't know that, surely there must have been enough in the cache (that was miraculously recovered?) to allow for more than one person to drink, just as was done at the PC's Joining.

 

And even if there is only enough for one person, if Loghain is killed, why not pipe up and say, "I have enough 'spawn juice to make a single Warden. Who's with me?!" Considering the threat, I bet there would be dozens of volunteers just from the audience in the Landsmeet.

 

The whole thing is absurd and requires such hand waving that it's laughable.

 

Well, unless you make a point out of traveling with Alistair alone like a couple or something.

Aww... I actually thought about doing this once! I've sort of done it with Dorian, but then you miss out on banter, so...

[Vanilka]

I did allow for that in my post.

 

Sorry! It wasn't aimed at any specific person. More in the void. (I've also changed the lettering because it probably looked more intense than I meant for it to.  )

 

This is really what makes the whole thing so gimmicky in the first place. It turns out you don't even need Archdemon blood, but even if Riordan didn't know that, surely there must have been enough in the cache (that was miraculously recovered?) to allow for more than one person to drink, just as was done at the PC's Joining.

 

And even if there is only enough for one person, if Loghain is killed, why not pipe up and say, "I have enough 'spawn juice to make a single Warden. Who's with me?!" Considering the threat, I bet there would be dozens of volunteers just from the audience in the Landsmeet.

 

The whole thing is absurd and requires such hand waving that it's laughable.

 

I admit I rather enjoy the Landsmeet in general, but yes, it is very contrived to 1) only push Loghain as a possible Warden, 2) have no other option if you kill Loghain (especially since we do still have the blood). As you said, I don't think there would be lack of people willing to do that, either. (I might be wrong, but I think Leliana in particular might jump at the opportunity, given her vision and belief that she had been chosen to help the Wardens defeat the Blight. She's very dedicated to the Wardens' cause, too. At least I'd have high hopes for her.)

 

In my favourite scenario, unhardened Alistair duels Loghain, then lops his head off with nothing more than an acknowledging nod from the Warden. Boom! Problem solved. Riordan doesn't even get to talk and the contrivance is therefore not so obvious. It saves me so much pain! (And I see it as part of Alistair's story. It delivers some closure for him, I think.) But that's just me.

 

Aww... I actually thought about doing this once! I've sort of done it with Dorian, but then you miss out on banter, so...

 

Nothing wrong with that!  I like doing that while roleplaying certain situations myself.

 

What I was trying to say is that the only thing that could stop Riordan from having anyone else Join could be that the Warden hadn't recruited anyone else at all. But I still think you're right and there would be others willing to Join.

[nightscrawl]

In my favourite scenario, unhardened Alistair duels Loghain, then lops his head off with nothing more than an acknowledging nod from the Warden. Boom! Problem solved. Riordan doesn't even get to talk and the contrivance is therefore not so obvious. It saves me so much pain! (And I see it as a part of Alistair's story. It delivers some closure for him, I think.) But that's just me.

It plays the same with hardened Alistair as well, and this is how I usually play it out. I also dislike the idea of everyone looking to my PC to make this particular decision, so I just have Alistair duel and make his own decision.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Out of curiosity as I've not played the IB romance, is there a conversation about monogamy either in the base game or in Trespasser? The scenes I saw on youtube indicated that the relationship began as a friends with benefits situation, and no discussion of the future was provided. But I don't know that I saw the culmination of the romance.

Yes. After the first time with The Iron Bull you can ask him questions. During that he says "Long as we're doing this, you have my complete attention.".

[Donquijote and 59 others]

We don't know what Duncan would've done. The way I see it, why would Duncan conscript somebody who is likely to stab you in the back because he's tried to kill the Wardens so many times already and is more interested in playing tug-o-war with the nobles than doing what's best to fight the Blight? Who's more afraid of Orlesians than the darkspawn? Loghain is just in the way. Potential threat while alive/free because he's so paranoid. 

Genevieve which was Duncan mentor recruited him after that he killed her boyfriend which was a GW...for revenge she recruited him

Duncan understood the GW mentality from her ,thus 100% he would have had no problems with Loghain.

 

 

 

However, it should be stated that, at the time the Landsmeet decision is made, neither Alistair nor the player knows about the requirement of needing a Warden to truly slay the Archdemon.

However it should be said that during the DAO development process a GW was not necessary to kill the archdemon because the only way to kill the critter was a peculiar weapon.

They changed along the road the finale of the game for the DR and the Morrigan nonsense thus  creating illogical gaps like:

 

-why Duncan didn't mentioned the US to AListair in 6th months?(because was not part of the plot)

-why RIordan didn't recruited others wardens?(because they were not necessary)

-why Riordan didn't tried to use the US as an argument and whisper it to the Warden and Alistair at the Landsmeet to convince them both?

(because the US didn't exist)

[Vanilka]

Genevieve which was Duncan mentor recruited him after that he killed her boyfriend which was a GW...for revenge she recruited him

Duncan understood the GW mentality from her ,thus 100% he would have had no problems with Loghain.

 

That is not what I said. I said there are more reliable people around.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

That is not what I said. I said there are more reliable people around.

I mentioned the fact that GW were not necessary to kill archdemons thus Riordan didn't needed others GW for the dragon but only for the darkspawns and the GW life was enough of a punishment for Loghain in Riordan's mind a punishment that could have  made him useful.

They didn't rectified the inconsistencies with the original plot since DAO was a merging between the old and the new concepts

(this is evident especially in Ostagar)

[German Soldier]

I think the original concept of the plot of DAO made more sense since it was never explained why an archdemon is not able to command his own soul upon death like Corypheus(why is automatic his body jump?),thus the need of an unique weapon to kill it while the GW were important because were resistant to the blight.

[German Soldier]

Let me get this straight in my mind...

You leave a swathe of blood from Ostigar to Denerim, with Loghain trying to kill you all the while and it is Alister's desire for Loghain to die at the Landsmeet that makes you turn moral high ground when he has said Loghain needs to die since leaving Ostigar? And that makes him an unhealthy romance because when you finally face the man who has been trying to kill you for a year you decide that you don't want to because IRL you see that as unreasonable?

Yes i find death penalty unreasonable,do you have a problem with that?

Alistair have only to deal with my decision and leave while committing a form of betrayal.

[Catilina]

Yes i find death penalty unreasonable,do you have a problem with that?

Alistair have only to deal with my decision and leave while committing a form of betrayal.

Again, this silly death-penalty-question! How is this relevant HERE?

[Vanilka]

I mentioned the fact that GW were not necessary to kill archdemons thus Riordan didn't needed others GW for the dragon but only for the darkspawns and the GW life was enough of a punishment for Loghain in Riordan's mind a punishment that could have  made him useful.

 

That has nothing to do with anything I said at all and it's not what actually happens in the game. The Grey Wardens are needed to kill the Archdemon. Riordan explains why.

 

Conscripting to the Wardens is not about punishment, either. It's about what's best to stop the Blight. It's not about people. It's about not letting the Blight swallow the land. Call me crazy, but I'd rather bet on somebody whose martial prowess I have experienced for many months and who's had my back for that entire time, rather than somebody who's tried to stab it all that time out of paranoia. The decision is between killing Loghain and letting him live because that's what the writers decided. Doesn't mean it makes perfect sense.

 

They didn't rectified the inconsistencies with the original plot since DAO was a merging between the old and the new concepts

(this is evident especially in Ostagar)

 

What inconsistencies? The examples you've given don't prove anything besides the writing being a bit contrived here and there. Not even all three of them.

 

I also fail to see how it connects to the topic of the thread. You're derailing your own thread.

[German Soldier]

Again, this silly death-penalty-question! How is this relevant HERE?

Is relevant the moment i quoted a post about the Alistair romance of an user that wanted to prove is point by saying that Alistair is right in wanting Loghain dead just because he whined since Lothering about it and that this point does not constitute a severe issue for the romance.

A female warden who doesn't believe in death penalty is both dumped and abandoned by a fellow warden in time of blight.

[Catilina]

 

Is relevant the moment i quoted a post about the Alistair romance of an user that wanted to prove is point by saying that Alistair is right in wanting Loghain dead just because he whined since Lothering about it and that this point does not constitute a severe issue for the romance.

A female warden who doesn't believe in death penalty is both dumped and abandoned by a fellow warden in time of blight.

 

But why this relationship is unhealthy? I do not understand you. Many romance ends, but not all are unhealthy ...

(Please, no more death-penalty-blahblah...)

[Karook]

 

I wouldn't call what we got in the DA relationships as issues.......they are big,big problems....

from mass robbery,to city destructions,to bloody sex rituals and worldwide genocides......

 

 

 

I had to chuckle at this, not in a condescending way, just a genuine chuckle. Here is why. "DA relationships has issues" and then you go onto describe those peeps as though in the context of our real world. So yeah, to a degree, some extra drama. But in context with the DA world, not at all. I mean lets talk PTSD for second, to make this super real. A lot of people in our real world would never have PTSD. HOWEVER, that would change if we lived in the DA world, instantly. 

 

Me: Dude! 

 

Friend: What? 

 

Me: My Starbucks run was INSANE! 

 

Friend: How so? 

 

ME: On the way there, a FRACKIN rift appeared on the Mopac Expressway!!! 

 

Friend: NO WAY! Don't you have that like weird green thingy on your hand? 

 

ME: It lit up like a Christmas tree and because, like, Im the only one that has it, I had to call my three buds to help me close it- in the MIDDLE of a freeway, during rush hour. But it gets better. 

 

Friend: How is that even possible?!? 

 

ME: When I finally got to Starbucks, the Coffee Bean & Tea Life Dragon showed up--- AGAIN. They so need to get over it. So all of us had to fight that beast. All that for a latte, dude. Nuts. 

 

----------

 

So .... romance in THAT world, would probably be a tad freaky. 

[Aren]

1. Loghain deserves the execution.

 

Remeber to add the magical sentence to it.

"In my opinion"

[Catilina]

Remeber to add the magical sentence to it.

"In my opinion"

Still, what do you think who the *****'s opinion, if not mine?

 

But yes, you're right: always necessary to formulate precisely. By the way: you just wants to teach me, how to properly formulate a newspaper article? or just simply tease? Or you have there something arguments to protect Loghain?

And one more question: how Loghain's guilt/innocence fits the unhealthy love theme?

 

(Yes, I wrote a response to a question, but it has decayed. long time ago. Not to mention about how much Loghain topic live here in the forum.)

[BansheeOwnage]

 

As someone who suffers from long term depression and anxiety, I don't think it's unfair to label relationships with one or both members dealing with mental illness as potentially more difficult than others. It's not singling out people with mental illness as dangerous or inherently poor at interpersonal relationships. Just saying that when mental illness is involved with human relationships, there's automatically more challenges to deal with than if mental illness is not involved. From a long term perspective.

 

Of course everyone is going to have bad days and some people could be emotionally abusive without having any mental illness or there could be any number of reasons why a relationship could be unhealthy that don't involve mental illness at all. But IMO it's likely that if a mental illness is involved, everything else equal, over the long term there is greater potential for conflict.

Yes, relationships involving someone with mental health issues may be more likely (in a vacuum) to be challenging/difficult to maintain, but I don't think that's the same as being an unhealthy relationship. But as evidenced by this thread, I think we all have a slightly (or not so slightly) different opinion on exactly what "unhealthy" means.

 

To me, it doesn't mean you'll have hardships to overcome, it doesn't mean you might argue a lot. To me it would be something more like one person using the other. A situation where one or both partners are being harmed in some way just by being together.

 

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, just expanding my thoughts.

[German Soldier]

But why this relationship is unhealthy? I do not understand you. Many romance ends, but not all are unhealthy ...

(Please, no more death-penalty-blahblah...)

Seeing that someone that presumably loves you flushes everything you have done for one act of vengeance, without making the minimum effort to understand that there is more in stake, and also throwing the ideals of the order that he supposedly was proud of, is something unhealthy indeed.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Seeing that someone that presumably loves you flushes everything you have done for one act of vengeance, without making the minimum effort to understand that there is more in stake, and also throwing the ideals of the order that he supposedly was proud of, is something unhealthy indeed.

 

This.

[Catilina]

Seeing that someone that presumably loves you flushes everything you have done for one act of vengeance, without making the minimum effort to understand that there is more in stake, and also throwing the ideals of the order that he supposedly was proud of, is something unhealthy indeed.

According to your aspect also Alistair "unhealthy", not the relationship ... that's two different things. It may be related, but not necessarily related. Not in this case. (Remember: the romance ended, when the conflict appeared.)

[nightscrawl]

Seeing that someone that presumably loves you flushes everything you have done for one act of vengeance, without making the minimum effort to understand that there is more in stake, and also throwing the ideals of the order that he supposedly was proud of, is something unhealthy indeed.

 
It's funny that you should phrase it quite this way, as David Gaider basically argued the opposite in favor of Alistair. (I'd post some quotes but there is too much content in that thread to bother.)