67 replies to this topic

[CosmicGnosis]

What exactly is Reaper indoctrination? That is, what does a person experience as the indoctrination process progresses? Saren believed that he needed to forge an alliance between organics and the Reapers, but wasn't sure if he really believed that, or if Sovereign had planted the idea in his mind. It wasn't until he was somehow convinced to put the implants in his body that Sovereign completely dominated his mind. And yet, he could still have a moment of clarity and shoot himself.

 

The Illusive Man: At what point was he indoctrinated? Until the very end, he fully believed that the Reapers could be controlled... and he was right. The biggest problem was that he also implanted himself with Reaper technology, and the Reapers would have never allowed him to actually seize control; they could do anything to his body. And yet, just like Saren, he could be persuaded to see the flaws in his logic, and choose to shoot himself.

 

Is indoctrination supposed to tie into some overall theme? It's interesting that we're introduced to the Thorian before we learn about Reaper indoctrination; the methods are similar, although not exactly the same. And we can't ignore the Indoctrination Theory, which makes indoctrination itself the final obstacle to overcome. But the problem is that indoctrination is a physical process, not just a psychological one. An actual signal affects a person's brain and influences their thinking. Also, isn't it ironic to declare that the destruction of the Reapers is the only valid solution? Isn't the person who makes this claim "indoctrinated", believing that no other solution is viable? Even the Illusive Man suggests this possibility on Thessia, stating that Shepard could be indoctrinated into fighting a war that can't be won, and ignoring the very real chance to control the Reapers. Of course, he's invalidated because he actually was the indoctrinated one.

 

I suppose I'm just confused about this indoctrination thing. I'm not sure if it has any thematic point. Like, is indoctrination supposed to be the belief that the Reapers, in some way that varies from person to person, are needed? Is it supposed to be a hopeless nihilism, some kind of Lovecraftian realization that the universe is so bleak that it drives you to madness? It could be argued that indoctrination itself is the Reapers; it represents the "hope" that they can combat the chaos of a meaningless universe, but in ways that are beyond the comprehension, or approval, of people like us. Thus, the madness comes from both the physical degenerative process and the inability to comprehend the Reapers and their purpose.

 

So is that why Shepard was "special"? His/her will was so strong, so superhuman, that he/she represented an evolution that resisted the madness of indoctrination? Perhaps a symbol of the inevitable collapse of the Catalysts' cycle, like the keepers' evolution to respond only to the Citadel's original signal? Shepard is proof that the Reapers are knowable, and indoctrination has no power over him/her. A man or woman who can embrace the terror of an unknown Cosmos, and prove that the Reapers are obsolete. At least, that is what I would like to believe.

[Dalakaar]

I think reaper indoctrination is something similar to confronting a big wall of text and having to read it. Only you have to read it. You can't skim. Or hell, skip the thing entirely and just make stuff up that sounds like it might be related to the title, which as it turns out is the only part you read.

Freedom is wonderful.

 

Goodbye.

[rossler]

Read the codex.

[CosmicGnosis]

Read the codex.

The codex doesn't provide an answer to my central question: What is the thematic point of indoctrination? It's a major element of the plot, and I'd like it to mean something more than just being the brainwashing weapon of the villain.

[Remix-General Aetius]

What does this have to do with Andromeda? ME3 Lore subforum is thataway -------->

[CosmicGnosis]

What does this have to do with Andromeda? ME3 Lore subforum is thataway -------->

Actually, this could be relevant to Andromeda, if BioWare wants to keep the Lovecraftian themes going. In which case, we can speculate on the form they will take in the next story. The Remnants are the likely candidate, and, unlike many others, I actually want them to have some connection to the Reapers.

[AlanC9]

This is all projection; there never was any such thematic content there... at least, none that Bio intended.

Incidentally, who says you don't hear about Indoctrination before meeting the Thorian? What if you do Feros last? And why shouldn't we ignore Indoctrination Theory?

[Homey C-Dawg]

What does this have to do with Andromeda? ME3 Lore subforum is thataway -------->

 

Plot twist! The protagonist is actually an indoctrinated human on Earth during the reaper war and the entire game will take place in their head.

[CosmicGnosis]

This is all projection; there never was any such thematic content there... at least, none that Bio intended.

Incidentally, who says you don't hear about Indoctrination before meeting the Thorian? What if you do Feros last? And why shouldn't we ignore Indoctrination Theory?

It probably is projection. But this fanbase has projected a whole lot of things onto this story.

 

And you're right about Feros. I forgot that you can visit the planets in any order. I always take what I consider to be the best path every time: Therum -> Feros -> Noveria -> Virmire.

[Remix-General Aetius]

Actually, this could be relevant to Andromeda, if BioWare wants to keep the Lovecraftian themes going. In which case, we can speculate on the form they will take in the next story. The Remnants are the likely candidate, and, unlike many others, I actually want them to have some connection to the Reapers.

 

Oh yeah sure, and I can make a thread about Tali's sweat because she could be relevant in Andromeda.

[CosmicGnosis]

Yeah, sorry for posting a thread that no one wants to take seriously. Just wanted to analyze the effects of indoctrination on the thinking of the characters and the potential thematic consequences that result from it. 

[dorktainian]

This is all projection; there never was any such thematic content there... at least, none that Bio intended.

Incidentally, who says you don't hear about Indoctrination before meeting the Thorian? What if you do Feros last? And why shouldn't we ignore Indoctrination Theory?

because as it stands it is the only way the ending of the game makes any sense after shep gets hit by harbies super laser of nevermisses.

[Sah291]

Thematically? It was about mind control, and slavery. It seemed to be that indoctrination evolved first as a biological process with organics (as with the original Leviathans and ancient creatures like the Thorian). These races were powerful apex predators and came to enslave others, with the ability to use mind control. Machines later evolved an equivalent process, with something resembling viral code.

Why was Shepard the only one not effected? Thematically, I think because Shepard represented rebellion...just like Saren and the Illusive man both represented possible solutions that the catalyst ultimately presents (Synthesis and Control), Shep was supposed to be the Destroyer. In that role Shepard could not be indoctrinated, as that would change what Shepard was (the anti thesis).

As for hopeless nihilism... A bit. The ending seemed to suggest a damned if you do, damned if you don't outlook. That there will always be conflict and war, as the cycle of life struggles between chaos and order. That organic life (and the process of organic evolution) is inherently slow and chaotic. And that peace (with civilization/technology) will always involve giving up some freedom, control, or individuality.

[dorktainian]

Indoctrinated.

 

Definition;  any person who picked blue or green in mass effect 3's ending.

[rossler]

The codex doesn't provide an answer to my central question: What is the thematic point of indoctrination? It's a major element of the plot, and I'd like it to mean something more than just being the brainwashing weapon of the villain.

 

It's how the Reapers defeat you at the end. It's their ace in the hole.

 

It's not just a brainwashing weapon though. If the Reapers have a primary and secondary ability, the indoctrination is their primary ability, and their lasers and superior firepower are their secondary ability.

 

They turned you from a savior of the galaxy into a servant of the Reapers, willingly. Just like they did with Saren or the Illusive Man. They turned both of them from a regular guy into a servant of the Reapers.

 

And they did it without most people realizing it was happening. It was that subtle.

[fhs33721]

There is no themactic point to indoctrination. It's a mind-control plot device that allows you to gleefully shoot your way through hundreds of people without feeling guilty because: "It's okay they are mind controlled anyways and it's a mercy to kill them."

Secondarily it's also to further build up the Reapers as lovecraftian eldritch abominations. Just like Cthullu or other lovcraftian horrors the mere presence of a Reaper has an negative effect on peoples sanity due to indoctrination.

[AlanC9]

because as it stands it is the only way the ending of the game makes any sense after shep gets hit by harbies super laser of nevermisses.

Figured a couple of you guys would pop out of the woodwork.

[ZipZap2000]

Figured a couple of you guys would pop out of the woodwork.

We should really get around to replacing that woodwork.

[KaiserShep]

We should really get around to replacing that woodwork.

 

 

The trouble is finding it. If it was ever discovered, it'd undoubtedly be nuked. 

[Eryri]

And why shouldn't we ignore Indoctrination Theory?

You seem to have some difficulty in doing so yourself.

[DeathScepter]

You seem to have some difficulty in doing so yourself.

because he is indoctrinated himself.

[PiKey]

because he is indoctrinated himself.

 

IT is not ideal.

For example, DLC Arrival is opposite to it.

[MrFob]

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.

 

...

 

Sorry, reading the thread title, I couldn't help myself. If you really want to find out a bit more about indoctrination, what it feels like and how direct or subtle it can be, I recommend reading the novels Revelation and Retribution, both of which feature characters that are being indoctrinated in various ways and speeds.

 

I agree though, indoctrination got really fuzzy in ME3, when it was used as a catch all term for anything that needed to force the plot into any direction the writer wanted and that was otherwise just ignored when it would have made sense but was unwanted. So I'd say, in ME3 it has no thematic point beyond a forced plot device.

[Iakus]

What is indoctrination?

 

Lots of speculation for everyone

[gothpunkboy89]

When you start to take actions that you think will help everyone but actually only work in the Reaper's favor.