47 replies to this topic

[Illegitimus]

Because Justice isn't in the Fade.  

[Sah291]

Quoting Hawke "I don't even think there was ever a 'Anders'".
 
Personally i believe that in the friendship path Anders, by Act 3, completely stopped existing and "Vengance" took his place. Vengeance being the complete and total merge of Anders and Justice's extremes.

I agree....this is somewhat of a personal interpretation/headcanon, but I always kind of saw "Anders" as being more Justice than Anders, right from the beginning. For one, his personality was more similiar to the original Justice from DAA than the original Anders I thought.

Plus the whole Justice/Vengeance thing is very much the kind of conflict a spirit would have with themselves, over whether they are a spirit or demon. So I think of it like this: when they merged, they both ceased to be. Justice became human, and Vengeance represents the parts of himself created by the human Anders' memories (his anger, desires, etc).

A lot of people complained that Anders changed too much from DAA to DA2. But if you look at if from the perspective that he was Justice, haunted by the memories of Anders (like Kristoff), instead of the other way around, his behavior and personality makes more sense, at least to me. I think he was genuinely confused/conflicted over who and what he was, though.

[Lezio]

I agree....this is somewhat of a personal interpretation/headcanon, but I always kind of saw "Anders" as being more Justice than Anders, right from the beginning. For one, his personality was more similiar to the original Justice from DAA than the original Anders I thought.

Plus the whole Justice/Vengeance thing is very much the kind of conflict a spirit would have with themselves, over whether they are a spirit or demon. So I think of it like this: when they merged, they both ceased to be. Justice became human, and Vengeance represents the parts of himself created by the human Anders' memories (his anger, desires, etc).

A lot of people complained that Anders changed too much from DAA to DA2. But if you look at if from the perspective that he was Justice, haunted by the memories of Anders (like Kristoff), instead of the other way around, his behavior and personality makes more sense, at least to me. I think he was genuinely confused/conflicted over who and what he was, though.

 

They do and i agree, that's the reason i like his complexity.

It must best be said, though, that i would have preferred much more if in Act 1 he started out as the Anders we all knew from Awakening with, at times, Justice, the real Justice, shining through. Basically, in Act 1, it should have been the Anders and Justice who joined forces to do good, not the "Vengeance" they became.

 

Throughout Act 2 their "fall" should have been depicted, their confusion and their loss of "self", their desire to do good starting to get twisted by their extremes.

 

Basically, while Act 1 Anders/Justice would have been the jokester healer with a strong sense of Justice and morals, the Act 2 version of them should have been more serious and more prone to be aggressive rather than to be the medic (which would have fit with his whole Panacea/Vengeance skill tree)

 

Basically i would have liked it more if Anders started "good" and became worse and worse as the game went on rather than, well, what we have in DA2, so already kind of gone by Act 1 and completely gone by Act 3

[Catilina]

Quoting Hawke "I don't even think there was ever a 'Anders'".

 

Personally i believe that in the friendship path Anders, by Act 3, completely stopped existing and "Vengeance" took his place. Vengeance being the complete and total merge of Anders and Justice's extremes.

 

So, Anders' wish to see mages having some kind of freedom and decisional power over their lives (in Awakening he specifically states that mages breaking away from the Chanry is not a solution) twisted by Justice's black and white mentality, Justice's absolute approach to, well, Justice twisted by Anders' rage towards the Chantry and the templars (as Justice says in Awakening, the fade is a place of absolutes so having to deal with the amount of "grey" Anders lives with basically twisted him[Justice]). They corrupted each other and both turned into a 3rd entity, Vengeance

 

This created the being whom doesn't bat an eye if Hawke sells Fenris to Danarius and yet would literally die to see all mages set free. It's not about freedom, it's about mages' freedom. Their beliefs merged and brought to an extreme

 

All of this to say that, in my opinion, friendship path Anders is completely unsalvageable because there's basically no Anders, or Justice, left to save.

 

While in the rivalry path what, i think, actually happened is that Justice straight up turned into a demon and actually started possessing Anders by the time Act 3 kicked in (rivalry Anders has blackouts and memory problems). So, yeah, since in this case there's Anders, or what's left of him, and there's Vengeance, Justice turned into a demon, it could be possible to save the former

 

 

And as i write this i find myself wishing, for the 100th time, DA2 wasn't rushed. Anders would have been such a brilliant character if in Act 1 he was the guy from Awakening and then, slowly, started to fall

Maybe I should try a rival game with Anders. Just I do not know whether it is possible at mage side. Anders is very easy to make friends ... Even with Fenris it was hard for me a rival nexus at first time as mage Hawke. Anders was always 100% friend. I played only once in the templar side, and only at the end.

 

However, you may be right.

[Sah291]

They do and i agree, that's the reason i like his complexity.
It must best be said, though, that i would have preferred much more if in Act 1 he started out as the Anders we all knew from Awakening with, at times, Justice, the real Justice, shining through. Basically, in Act 1, it should have been the Anders and Justice who joined forces to do good, not the "Vengeance" they became.
 
Throughout Act 2 their "fall" should have been depicted, their confusion and their loss of "self", their desire to do good starting to get twisted by their extremes.
 
Basically, while Act 1 Anders/Justice would have been the jokester healer with a strong sense of Justice and morals, the Act 2 version of them should have been more serious and more prone to be aggressive rather than to be the medic (which would have fit with his whole Panacea/Vengeance skill tree)
 
Basically i would have liked it more if Anders started "good" and became worse and worse as the game went on rather than, well, what we have in DA2, so already kind of gone by Act 1 and completely gone by Act 3

The writers said they regretted not being able to show more of the change I think. But then again it's probably better they didn't, because it would have biased player perception too much I think. It would be perceived as Justice taking over Anders as a demon, instead of a question of who was really corrupting who...those were the things that made him intriguing to me.

Hawke didn't know pre merge Anders, and had to make a choice on how he/she felt about Justice in this confused state. And likewise, Anders doesn't know how Hawke is ultimately going to feel about him either, and so they couldn't completely trust each other.

[Qun00]

Anders is possesed by Justice in the physical world, unlike Connor who was possesed by a link through the fade. Like others said, only the avvar know how to undo such possesion. Who knows if Anders will ever get wind of this.
 
I personally would gleefuly smite Justice out of existance if they ever got separated. I blame everything that went wrong on him. I mean yes, it was stupid for Anders to accept merging with him, but it was Justice who came up with this possesion plan in the first place. Everything that went wrong at that point foward was Justice's fault. He deserves to be punished for that.

To be fair, Nathaniel started it.

"Nathaniel: What if you found a living body to possess?

Justice: Even if I knew how, I would not possess the living. Such is an act for demons.

Nathaniel: What if the person were willing?

Justice: Why would a mortal ever allow such a thing?

Nathaniel: For life. For love. Perhaps together, you can do what they cannot do alone. If you gave instead of taking, I would consider you no demon.

Justice: It is...something to consider. Thank you, Nathaniel."

Damn Howes are nothing but trouble, I tell ya.

[Baboontje]

 

Maybe I should try a rival game with Anders. Just I do not know whether it is possible at mage side. Anders is very easy to make friends ... Even with Fenris it was hard for me a rival nexus at first time as mage Hawke. Anders was always 100% friend. I played only once in the templar side, and only at the end.

 

However, you may be right.

 

 

I tried. Once. Had to help myself through the console though. I couldn't do it through normal means, I am way too much pro-mage myself. But then when I did have him at 100% rival, he was going on about how he couldn't believe my mage Hawke was against freedom and in favor of the Templars. Which she was not as I have never sided with the Templars in either DAO or DA2, ever. So that put me off a bit. I did however, prefer him like this in act 3. Where he mentions having black-outs and where you can convince him not to go through with it. Only then Justice rears his ugly head again to tell you to stop meddling and Anders had no idea afterwards,

[Catilina]

I tried. Once. Had to help myself through the console though. I couldn't do it through normal means, I am way too much pro-mage myself. But then when I did have him at 100% rival, he was going on about how he couldn't believe my mage Hawke was against freedom and in favor of the Templars. Which she was not as I have never sided with the Templars in either DAO or DA2, ever. So that put me off a bit. I did however, prefer him like this in act 3. Where he mentions having black-outs and where you can convince him not to go through with it. Only then Justice rears his ugly head again to tell you to stop meddling and Anders had no idea afterwards,

It does not sound too promising. I'm also on the mage side... Even Fenris was easier, because I did not was necessary to hurt him while I defended the mages and myself.

[Lezio]

Well, to get him in the rivalry path you don't really need to be against-mages or pro-stupid evil templars. Just be Pro-Circle, which is kind of believable for a non-mage Hawke since mages in Kirkwall are pretty messed up(not their fault, but still), that's what i did with my canon Sarcastic Rogue FemHawke and it worked out pretty well

[Baboontje]

It does not sound too promising. I'm also on the mage side... Even Fenris was easier, because I did not was necessary to hurt him while I defended the mages and myself.

Well, maybe I should keep him on the friendly side for the most part of the game and then just before that particular conversation, pump him into full rival. Perhaps that way it aligns better with how I play my Hawke.

 

@ Lezio: Yeah but I'm always a mage. So it seems rather stupid to be all pro-Circle when my Hawke has never been locked up in the circle one day in her life.

[Catilina]

Well, to get him in the rivalry path you don't really need to be against-mages or pro-stupid evil templars. Just be Pro-Circle, which is kind of believable for a non-mage Hawke since mages in Kirkwall are pretty messed up(not their fault, but still), that's what i did with my canon Sarcastic Rogue FemHawke and it worked out pretty well

I have a problem with (the prison) Circle too...  I've never sent anyone back there, except Idunna from the Blooming Rose.

The circles need to work as knowledge centers. library and mage scool.

The templars also necessary, for protecting people, not for guarding the prison. Templars exists to serve man, and never to rule over him (A mage are also man)

[Lezio]

I have a problem with (the prison) Circle too...  I've never sent anyone back there, except Idunna from the Blooming Rose.

The circles need to work as knowledge centers. library and mage scool.

The templars also necessary, for protecting people, not for guarding the prison. Templars exists to serve man, and never to rule over him (A mage are also man)

 

I'm kind of torn on that one, if i have to be honest. Mages are dangerous because one abomination is enough to destroy an entire village, so having them free to go around is a big danger. Plus, there's the fact that people can be cruel in regards to what is different, as a matter of fact many of the mages that are okay with the Circle hold such an opinion because they were literally saved ny the templars when they were kids (Wynne comes to mind)

 

But, there's also the problem that Templars are men, and men with absolute power over other men, sooner or later, are bound to abuse it (cue the creepy bald templar in DA2).

 

Now that i think about it, speaking of Justice, since the Templar Order's founded on righteousness, justice and faith, ideal and absolute concepts, basically, if it was completely formed by empty bodies possessed by spirits of Valor or Justice it would probably become just what it should be

[Catilina]

I'm kind of torn on that one, if i have to be honest. Mages are dangerous because one abomination is enough to destroy an entire village, so having them free to go around is a big danger. Plus, there's the fact that people can be cruel in regards to what is different, as a matter of fact many of the mages that are okay with the Circle hold such an opinion because they were literally saved ny the templars when they were kids (Wynne comes to mind)

 

But, there's also the problem that Templars are men, and men with absolute power over other men, sooner or later, are bound to abuse it (cue the creepy bald templar in DA2).

 

Now that i think about it, speaking of Justice, since the Templar Order's founded on righteousness, justice and faith, ideal and absolute concepts, basically, if it was completely formed by empty bodies possessed by spirits of Valor or Justice it would probably become just what it should be

Yes, they can be dangerous (but if you think about it, everyone can be dangerous). That's why the Templars necessary exist. But the constant confinement and other abuses are cruel. Perhaps even to say the phylactery system (Chantry's approved blood magic...) would also be acceptable to the Magi would be free to leave the tower and to be return freely.

[Lezio]

Yes, they can be dangerous (but if you think about it, everyone can be dangerous). That's why the Templars necessary exist. But the constant confinement and other abuses are cruel. Perhaps even to say the phylactery system (Chantry's approved blood magic...) would also be acceptable to the Magi would be free to leave the tower and to be return freely.

 

Yeah, the difference, though, is that when a mage becomes possessed s/he holds the power to kill lots of people.

And, again, the problem is that most people in Thedas are afraid of magic, and fear can easily turn to cruelty when an ignorant person doesn't understand a kid with magic is, well, still a kid and not a monster to starve out (as they did with Wynne, for example). That change, fear to cruelty, is even more true if that same person has just heard of a crazed mage, an abomination, destroying an entire village.

 

I like this whole templar/mage debacle because it's portrayed in a very realistic way, i mean think abot people's reaction if in real life we had guys who can make brains explode (walking bomb) with a wiggle of their fingers, and it doesn't really have a clear cut good answer

[Baboontje]

If they'd turn the Circle more into Howarts and the Templars into Aurors, I'd be more inclined to approve. Ideally for me, it would be like this:

 

Have mage kids learn magic (and other subjects) at the Circle until they come of age. If they live close to a Circle, let them stay at home for the night and come back for class in the morning. Or have them live in the tower internally if their family lives far away. But at least let them go home every once in a while. Or allow their family to visit. I believe that if mages are allowed to go home, be it once in a while or for the night, people wouldn't be as afraid of them as they would know more mages personally. "Oh hey but Jimmy from down the street is a mage and he ain't that bad..."

 

I would no longer have any Templars around but I would turn them into Seekers. No more lyrium leash, but they would have abilities that would nullify magic as I would give them a chance to exist if they acted more as some sort of specialized police force. Like when you have non-mage criminals, you send the guard. But if you have mage criminals (Criminals, not apostates as the word would no longer have any meaning.), you send Seekers. But I wouldn't keep them as jailors. Or even near a circle if they aren't needed there, i.e. searching for a criminal mage. I also wouldn't send them out to eradicate "forbidden magic". As long as the magic that is practised doesn't hurt others, it's not forbidden.

It also should be possible for mages to join the Seekers. Perhaps not go through the same ritual as we don't know if that works out well, but at least have them help to catch the actual bad guys. To give mages who desire a higher purpose than going back home to be, let's say, a baker's son/daughter. But also to show the mundanes that there are actual mages who give a sh*t about regular people and that they aren't all blood-crazed abominations to be.

[Catilina]

Yeah, the difference, though, is that when a mage becomes possessed s/he holds the power to kill lots of people.

And, again, the problem is that most people in Thedas are afraid of magic, and fear can easily turn to cruelty when an ignorant person doesn't understand a kid with magic is, well, still a kid and not a monster to starve out (as they did with Wynne, for example). That change, fear to cruelty, is even more true if that same person has just heard of a crazed mage, an abomination, destroying an entire village.

 

I like this whole templar/mage debacle because it's portrayed in a very realistic way, i mean think abot people's reaction if in real life we had guys who can make brains explode (walking bomb) with a wiggle of their fingers, and it doesn't really have a clear cut good answer

Thats why the Circles need to working as a school, not as a prison. Then more parents would take their children to freely there, knowing that they may return. I think.

[Captain Wiseass]

There's also a logistical issue. The ritual to free Conner involved either a blood sacrifice, which Anders wouldn't consent to, or an entire circle of mages and their lyrium stores, which would be suicidal in Kirkwall. "Knight-Commander Meredith, my friend here is possessed by a spirit of justice that's been warped into a spirit of vengeance, and --" *blooddeathstabbing*

[Catilina]

There's also a logistical issue. The ritual to free Conner involved either a blood sacrifice, which Anders wouldn't consent to, or an entire circle of mages and their lyrium stores, which would be suicidal in Kirkwall. "Knight-Commander Meredith, my friend here is possessed by a spirit of justice that's been warped into a spirit of vengeance, and --" *blooddeathstabbing*

Do not forget the Sabrae clan (keeper Marethari) and Varric's Carta connections... then probably they can acquire mages, if they would be need. But Justice/Vengeance (probably) not in the Fade, and he united with Anders. Moreover, I think, Anders do not want to kill his friend.

[ModernAcademic]

Two questions:

1- How does a spirit or demon latch itself onto a human soul?

2- At what moment do they become inseparable?

Have the 3 games showed that so far? Or do we have to speculate idly?

[Sah291]

Two questions:
1- How does a spirit or demon latch itself onto a human soul?
2- At what moment do they become inseparable?
Have the 3 games showed that so far? Or do we have to speculate idly?

1 - The human has to agree to let them in, so they appear to be bound by free will. Even though they may try hard to trick or convince a human, they ultimately can't without the human's choice.

2 - In DAI, Flemeth says that a soul cannot be forced onto the unwilling. And it appears the opposite is also true, as we saw with Wynne and Evangaline. They can separate and transfer to another if they want to.

3 - Anders and Justice may have been a special case though, since Justice wasn't really possessing him from the fade. Justice was trapped outside the fade and they merged. We have seen that other spirits that are killed when outside of the fade really do die, and don't just simply return to the fade, like Anders claimed Justice would in his act 3 quest. You have to kill the Keeper to kill the pride demon in Merrill's quest. In DAI, Solas says a spirit may reform in the fade one day, if it was strong enough, but it won't be the same and won't remember.

[Seraphim24]

Dragon Age 2 Anders is pretty crazy without really an outside influence, not sure what separating or sticking with justice would change to be honest.

[GoldenGail3]

I think separating Anders from justice might kill him, but do I care? NOPE!

[Seraphim24]

Anders is such a psycho-evil person to be honest, totally ruined from DA:O Anders IMHO.