27 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Greetings. Is there any information on how spellcasting works in Thedas ? I am asking because the question has been bugging me and I can't find information to confirm or back up my hypothesis.

 

To make things easier, I will use a spell that has appeared consistently across all three games (in varying forms):- Winter's Grasp. So how does a mage learn to cast Winter's Grasp ? How do they actually cast it ?

 

Do they learn the Theodosian version of rudimentary thermodynamic knowledge about heat transfer, heat dissipation, temperature reduction and then they use these knowledge to help them cast the spell by manipulating the Fade and the Veil to achieve sufficient heat dissipation in a particular area using their mana to achieve the effect known as Winter's Grasp ?

 

OR

 

Do they just imagine and intuit coldness, freezing, winter effects in their mind and then manipulate the Veil and the Fade using their mana to make their imagination/intuition real and achieve the effect known as Winter's Grasp ?

 

So the mages either use some form of scientific understanding of heat to cast Winter's Grasp or they just imagine and intuit a sense of coldness, freezing and chilling in their mind to cast Winter's Grasp ?

 

OR

 

Perhaps mages in Thedas do use either one of the techniques where we can have Circle Mages, due to their academic approach to magic, cast Winter's Grasp using the first method and mages who are not trained in the Circle such as Morrigan or Solas cast Winter's Grasp by imagination and intuition ?

 

I am very interested to hear your thoughts on this matter. Cheers.

[German Soldier]

Magic is the capacity to make something happen.

I don't really need to point out how utterly contrived sound the whole thing you imagine something and this happen just because you have imagined it.

Thermodynamics is the branch of physical science that deals with the relations between heat and other forms of energy  and, by extension, of the relationships between all forms of energy.

 

In the specific case of froze  or burn things one can argue that it's   a result of the passage of heat; the variation of internal energy can have different consequences, including a temperature change or a change of state of aggregation and that mages simply use fade magical energies when they want to burn things with heat or they remove heat from  the physical system and bring  it to the fade.

 

The problems are others kind of spell,like Magical resurrections,time travel,negromancy,foresee ecc. all things anti-scientific.

 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

 

Magic is the capacity to make something happen.

 

I don't really need to point out how utterly contrived sound the whole thing you imagine something and this happen just because you have imagined it.

 

Thermodynamics is the branch of physical science that deals with the relations between heat and other forms of energy  and, by extension, of the relationships between all forms of energy.

 

In the specific case of froze  or burn things one can argue that it's   a result of the passage of heat; the variation of internal energy can have different consequences, including a temperature change or a change of state of aggregation and that mages simply use fade magical energies when they want to burn things with heat or they remove heat from  the physical system and bring  it to the fade.

 

The problems are others kind of spell,like Magical resurrections,time travel,negromancy,foresee ecc. all things anti-scientific.

 

 

 

So from your viewpoint, magic, especially within the Theodosian context is simply wishful thinking, dreams and emotions made real due to the Fade. Which means you subscribe to the idea that Theodosian spellcasters rely on intuition and imagination for spellcasting instead of scientific theories and equations.

 

Personally, I find the idea that you can just wish something and it somehow becomes real to be very distasteful, because it feels like a low hanging fruit -  unchallenging and easy, compared to studying the theories in a mathematical or scientific way in order to apply it in the real world or compared to training very hard to be good at combat, stealth, using weapons, etc.

[myahele]

Dorian and Solas talk about some of their techniques. There's at least a methodology in Thedosian magic

 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Dorian and Solas talk about some of their techniques. There's at least a methodology in Thedosian magic

 

 

I know this banter but what does it imply ? Does it imply intuition and imagination or does it imply a scientific approach ?

[AlanC9]

I gotta go with German Soldier's interpretation here. Different cultures do magic differently. I don't see how that works if effective magic is dependent on understanding real physics.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I gotta go with German Soldier's interpretation here. Different cultures do magic differently. I don't see how that works if effective magic is dependent on understanding real physics.

 

That does make sense. Physics is physics no matter where you go  (unless you go to a parallel Earth or an alternate dimension) but magic is really varied between cultures and even between individuals.

[German Soldier]

 

So from your viewpoint, magic, especially within the Theodosian context is simply wishful thinking, dreams and emotions made real due to the Fade. Which means you subscribe to the idea that Theodosian spellcasters rely on intuition and imagination for spellcasting instead of scientific theories and equations.

 

Personally, I find the idea that you can just wish something and it somehow becomes real to be very distasteful, because it feels like a low hanging fruit -  unchallenging and easy, compared to studying the theories in a mathematical or scientific way in order to apply it in the real world or compared to training very hard to be good at combat, stealth, using weapons, etc.

Yes is wishful thinking and it operates through the rules of the special snowfalke trope because the more you are "special" the better you do magic.

Energy is energy and it doesn't make a favouritism like magical energies.

 The sole terms of dreamer should be able to tell you that it make a difference based on the subject,if you are a mage or a dreamer you can use it,if you are not a a mage you can't use it.

 

[Xerrai]

Near as I can tell, it is not so much what you are htinking of so much as how you are thinking of it.

 

Mages are considered different because of how they can have a conscious connection to the fade. This means they can 'reach' past the veil and into the fade. But it is here that we should question what that even means.

 

The veil is no physical barrier, is a metaphysical one that separates two states of the same world. According to one mage, he describes pieceing the veil not as a effort of forceful will, but as "opening ones eyes".

 

This interpretation, written by someone in the Minrathous Circle of Magi, claims "the act of passing through the Veil is much more about changing one's perceptions ​ than a physical transition".

 

And this seems to match up with what we know of the fade. Perceptions can change  the fade, mold it, influence it. It can even influence demons and spirits.

 

So I theorize that when a mage casts a spell, they do not so much as imagine it so much as they will something into existence. A strong desire that takes form so long as they have the mind to accomplish it (if that makes sense.)

[Big I]

The natural state of the world is one without the Veil, so one in which physical laws as we understand them co-exist with the Fade and whatever principles it works on

[German Soldier]

The natural state of the world is one without the Veil, so one in which physical laws as we understand them co-exist with the Fade and whatever principles it works on

Which are basically create matters and energy from nothing....

[nightscrawl]

I think the closest we've ever seen is in the DAO mage origin. After you pass the Harrowing you can wander through the tower. When you get to the library there are a few different lessons being taught to different people. The two more pertinent ones to this discussion are a mage that is being taught how to use fire and another that is being instructed on spell shield. In each case, the instructor is trying to impress on the student to concentrate on casting the spell, to focus on what they want to happen, and so on. In the games that's all we really have to go on as far as the actual act of casting, and the instruction thereof.

 

It's been a very long time since I've read the novels, so I don't really recall how, and to what degree, magic is shown. I know that magic plays a significant part in The Calling, due to Fiona, and in Asunder, because of all those mages, but not that the essence of spellwork is discussed beyond the results.

 

There are also the several cases we've heard about in the games from mages relating their childhood and "coming into" their magic. Usually some incident happens and the child has an emotional reaction. Being a child, they don't have full control over themselves and lash out in a magical way. In some cases, like with Minaeve, the child mage (seven years old!) was able to learn some things (make a fire in her fist) based on instinct, and practice, brought on by necessity.

 

I think magic, at least the basics like elemental spells, are based around personal control. More complicated and involved spells, such as those in the entropy tree, may stem from something else. In any case, I doubt that we will ever have a full explanation.

[Reznore57]

I guess it would be the same as magical ritual IRL , now I don't believe in magic but teenage me saw a movie about Witchcraft back in the days and I got books and everything .(I confort myself thinking most of us do weird stuff in teenage years...)

Anyway it seems magic in Thedas is mostly shaped by will and intention , just like "magic " IRL ,to reinforce that intention you'd use rituals and images , candles whatever floats your boat.

I imagine incantation used in Thedas , hand movement , even staff are just props to aid the mind focus and nothing else...someone really powerful wouldn't need that.

 

Power , as in fuel , might also be needed though .And this is where just relying on intentions wouldn't be enough.A mage has only his mana , and can kill himself by doing too much magic or a big spell.So I imagine there is technique to preserve or gain access to a bigger mana pool.

Again like IRL , imagine it's endurance in sports.

[Tatar Foras]

 

Magic is the capacity to make something happen.

I don't really need to point out how utterly contrived sound the whole thing you imagine something and this happen just because you have imagined it.

Thermodynamics is the branch of physical science that deals with the relations between heat and other forms of energy  and, by extension, of the relationships between all forms of energy.

 

In the specific case of froze  or burn things one can argue that it's   a result of the passage of heat; the variation of internal energy can have different consequences, including a temperature change or a change of state of aggregation and that mages simply use fade magical energies when they want to burn things with heat or they remove heat from  the physical system and bring  it to the fade.

 

The problems are others kind of spell,like Magical resurrections,time travel,negromancy,foresee ecc. all things anti-scientific.

 

 

 

U wot m8?  Is that a special type of magic that only summons Rivaini? Lol but on a serious note I imagine it's more a combination of both understanding the science behind the magic and possessing enough focus and will to physically manifest an ability. 

[Phoe77]

Even if magic is mostly an act of will and concentration, it would seem as though mages benefit from an understanding of the way magical forces work and interact.  Winter's Grasp is unlikely to rely on an understanding of the laws of thermodynamics, but I would be surprised to learn that typical mages don't have some academic understanding of the way arcane phenomena are applied to make the effect manifest.  

 

The very fact that Dorian even alludes to performing magical research would suggest to me that academic study is important at least to Circle mages.  If it all came down to wishing really hard, I don't think research and study would be necessary.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Even if magic is mostly an act of will and concentration, it would seem as though mages benefit from an understanding of the way magical forces work and interact.  Winter's Grasp is unlikely to rely on an understanding of the laws of thermodynamics, but I would be surprised to learn that typical mages don't have some academic understanding of the way arcane phenomena are applied to make the effect manifest.  

 

The very fact that Dorian even alludes to performing magical research would suggest to me that academic study is important at least to Circle mages.  If it all came down to wishing really hard, I don't think research and study would be necessary.

 

So for Circle Mages at least, it is a mix of both intuition and academic study ? I guess that makes sense. I wonder how it is for mages like Morrigan, Flemeth and Solas.

[Gervaise]

I think it is implied that spellcasting is more intuitive than an exact science.    In the Shattered Library there is a text of a lecture being given about this by a spirit of the Fade.   "The unchanging world is delicate: spells of power invite disaster and annihilation.   The unchanging world is stubborn: the pull of the earth fiercely resists making fire run like water or stone rise like mist.   The unchanging world rings with its own harmony.   Listen with fearless hearts and great works will unfold."   This seems to suggest that the caster needs to "listen" to the rhythms of the world around them in order to manifest magic.   WoT1 also states that it is the ability of a mage to tap into the power of the Fade that enables their spells and your mana is your ability to do this.   The greater the mana, the greater the spells produced.     So essentially a mage thinks what they want to achieve, focusses on tapping into the Fade and produces an effect. 

 

Mage training is as much about training the mind and giving it discipline to focus as it is about the technicalities.   The conversations between Dorian and Solas do suggest that it is possible to fine tune the effects through knowledge and experience but technical expertise is not necessary to produce a spell.   This is why young mages sometimes produce effects accidentally when first coming into their abilities.    Lots of people might think "I wish you'd burn in hell", a mage can actually make that wish a reality by manifesting the fire.    I think the connection with the Fade is the key.    In the Fade it is possible to produce anything you can imagine but because of its unchanging nature it quickly passes.    By tapping into the Fade, the power to alter reality is brought into the material world and due to the unchanging nature of the latter it can be focussed to produce a localised effect.

 

To be honest, I doubt even the writers know exactly how magic is produced.   It just is.   That's why it's magic and not science.

[straykat]

So for Circle Mages at least, it is a mix of both intuition and academic study ? I guess that makes sense. I wonder how it is for mages like Morrigan, Flemeth and Solas.

 

I figured having Flemeth around is even better than a Circle.. Morrigan probably got standard training that Circle mages get among a lot of other things.

 

I always thought Morrigan was supremely strong willed though. So much so that she's independent to a fault. But it probably makes her stronger than many mages. I think Shapeshifting requires it too.

[Abyss108]

I think if things like thermodynamics etc were known in Thedas, technology would be at a significantly higher level.

 

I'm also not sure there's a difference between the two methods in the way you have written it. Even if the mage uses knowledge of thermodynamics or whatever to help, they are still "believing" the movement of heat etc out of nothing. Whether they "imagine" the simple effect of a Winter's Grasp, or they "imagine" the heat dissipation that would cause it - either way it's manipulating something out of nothing.

[Phoe77]

Mage training is as much about training the mind and giving it discipline to focus as it is about the technicalities.   The conversations between Dorian and Solas do suggest that it is possible to fine tune the effects through knowledge and experience but technical expertise is not necessary to produce a spell.   This is why young mages sometimes produce effects accidentally when first coming into their abilities.    Lots of people might think "I wish you'd burn in hell", a mage can actually make that wish a reality by manifesting the fire.   

 

I would agree that technical knowledge or academic study isn't necessary to cast a spell, but tend to think that it allows mages to do so much more reliably and efficiently.  A child just coming into his power might be able to force a magical effect to manifest through sheer force of will or emotion, but the effects seem to be limited in complexity and largely out of the child's control.  Study and practice seems to increase a mage's ability to manifest and control more complex effects, whether due to a better intellectual understanding of the energies they're harnessing or because they've developed a more complete control of their will.  

 

Also of interest is the idea that hedge mages, through a lack of training, become unable to express their talents in the same way as a trained mage does.  The hows and whys of "arcane derangement" are still very up-in-the-air, but, in my opinion, the existence of such a condition seems to suggest that there are rules to magic use which must be observed in order for a mage to have full command of their powers.  Whether those rules are akin to laws of metaphysics or have more to do with proper methods of directing your will towards the production of magical effects is anyone's guess, however.  

 

Who knows if the fundamental mechanisms of magic have even been fully thought out though?  I kind of doubt they have.

[straykat]

I would agree that technical knowledge or academic study isn't necessary to cast a spell, but tend to think that it allows mages to do so much more reliably and efficiently.  A child just coming into his power might be able to force a magical effect to manifest through sheer force of will or emotion, but the effects seem to be limited in complexity and largely out of the child's control.  Study and practice seems to increase a mage's ability to manifest and control more complex effects, whether due to a better intellectual understanding of the energies they're harnessing or because they've developed a more complete control of their will.  

 

Also of interest is the idea that hedge mages, through a lack of training, become unable to express their talents in the same way as a trained mage does.  The hows and whys of "arcane derangement" are still very up-in-the-air, but, in my opinion, the existence of such a condition seems to suggest that there are rules to magic use which must be observed in order for a mage to have full command of their powers.  Whether those rules are akin to laws of metaphysics or have more to do with proper methods of directing your will towards the production of magical effects is anyone's guess, however.  

 

Who knows if the fundamental mechanisms of magic have even been fully thought out though?  I kind of doubt they have.

 

I kind of thought hedge mages like musicians who were untrained. And maybe didn't even learn to tune their guitars. So the music comes out wacky, like early Sonic Youth or something. It could even be creative.. albeit limited. Isn't that basically what happened with Cole? I know he's a spirit, but it seems like the learning process might've been the same.

[Phoe77]

This really is a topic that deserves its own thread (and I think there actually is one somewhere on this board).   Suffice it to say, a hedge mage in the truest academic sense becomes unable to "learn and cast spells as normal mages know them".  An untrained musician can attend classes and be no different from a musician who had been trained from the beginning.  Apparently, the same cannot be said for a mage who is truly without any kind of training. 

 

It's obviously just supposition on my part, but I'm inclined to believe this "no turning back" aspect has to do with something more than habit or learned behavior.  To me, it seems like something fundamental about the mage and how he interacts with and influences the Fade has to change to account for such a transformation.  Since no one has to be taught how to want something badly, I'm inclined to believe that something more goes into proper use of magic.

[In Exile]

This really is a topic that deserves its own thread (and I think there actually is one somewhere on this board).   Suffice it to say, a hedge mage in the truest academic sense becomes unable to "learn and cast spells as normal mages know them".  An untrained musician can attend classes and be no different from a musician who had been trained from the beginning.  Apparently, the same cannot be said for a mage who is truly without any kind of training. 

 

It's obviously just supposition on my part, but I'm inclined to believe this "no turning back" aspect has to do with something more than habit or learned behavior.  To me, it seems like something fundamental about the mage and how he interacts with and influences the Fade has to change to account for such a transformation.  Since no one has to be taught how to want something badly, I'm inclined to believe that something more goes into proper use of magic.

 

Which ties into Flemeth saying she can't teach the Warden any magic - in hindsight, because what she knows is so alien and ancient, that it might very well not even be possible without the spark of an ancient elf (dreamer? god?). 

[Almostfaceman]

Which ties into Flemeth saying she can't teach the Warden any magic - in hindsight, because what she knows is so alien and ancient, that it might very well not even be possible without the spark of an ancient elf (dreamer? god?). 

 

Huh, now this made me curious about what she may or may not have been able to teach Morrigan - who was just a normal human. Did Flemeth have to prime her somehow, through magic and frame of mind? 

[Sifr]

Which ties into Flemeth saying she can't teach the Warden any magic - in hindsight, because what she knows is so alien and ancient, that it might very well not even be possible without the spark of an ancient elf (dreamer? god?). 

 

I was playing this earlier with a mage Surana and says that she couldn't teach them without years of training in her ways, not that it'd be impossible. The reason she gaves is her way of practicing magic is different from that of the Circle (doesn't require pouring over nearly as many dusty books) and would basically require retraining the Warden from the ground up.

 

I suppose the best analogy would be to say... between training to ride a horse and then being presented with a bull instead. The concept itself is similar enough that you recognise what you need to do, but it's going to throw you off at lot at first, because it's a whole different animal than you're used to dealing with?

 

Hedge mages are similarly supposed to have had their magic manifest in unorthodox ways, so it's harder to retrain them (if at all) in Circle practices because they've become used to channeling their magic in a certain manner unique to them. Furthermore, even mages with similar training have their own particular quirks and things that "clunk" when it comes to their magic, according to banter between Bull and Solas.