Aller au contenu

Photo

Dark Energy and the death of stars


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
50 réponses à ce sujet

#26
katamuro

katamuro
  • Members
  • 2 875 messages

The dark energy "reason" made even less sense than the one we got. At least there is some level of demented logic in that. 

I think the pitfall for both "reasons" was that they both were trying to be clever and "surprising", it would have worked better if the reason was much simpler like reapers harvesting biological species to live/reproduce and the only reason they don't harvest all is that they are a bit smarter than us humans about our food supply. 

Yeah it would have been kinda cliche but considering how many things in ME were basically well re-purposed cliches that would have been absolutely fine.



#27
SKAR

SKAR
  • Members
  • 3 645 messages

That's nothing to do with what anyone may think either. The endings were nonsense, of the highest order.

Opinions, opinions.

#28
Killroy

Killroy
  • Members
  • 2 828 messages

Opinions, opinions.


The endings are objectively stupid and poorly implemented. Liking or disliking a stupid thing doesn't make it less stupid.
  • BioWareM0d13 et Moghedia aiment ceci

#29
TheN7Penguin

TheN7Penguin
  • Members
  • 1 871 messages

Death_star1.png

 

Was expecting that. :P

 

 

 

To be fair, it's a bit of an odd topic but it was left abandoned, so...



#30
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

It's not like that plot was better nonsense than what we ended up with, is it?

 

Hard to say, because we never saw what they did with it. Any ending were they try to say the Space Nazis weren't so wrong is nonsense. This version of the ending might at least have been tonally consistent with the series. 



#31
Mcfly616

Mcfly616
  • Members
  • 8 988 messages

The endings are objectively stupid and poorly implemented. Liking or disliking a stupid thing doesn't make it less stupid.

Subjectively. 



#32
BioWareM0d13

BioWareM0d13
  • Members
  • 21 133 messages

The trailer with Shepard doing the voice over sort of confirms for me that the Reaper War is the reason why the ark departs for Andromeda. Shepard doing a send off for the colonists wouldn't make much sense at all unless the project was related to the Reaper War.



#33
themikefest

themikefest
  • Members
  • 21 587 messages

The trailer with Shepard doing the voice over sort of confirms for me that the Reaper War is the reason why the ark departs for Andromeda. Shepard doing a send off for the colonists wouldn't make much sense at all unless the project was related to the Reaper War.

There's no fires seen on Earth like in ME3. I say the ship leaves before the events of ME3


  • ArabianIGoggles aime ceci

#34
Sanunes

Sanunes
  • Members
  • 4 373 messages

The dark energy "reason" made even less sense than the one we got. At least there is some level of demented logic in that. 

I think the pitfall for both "reasons" was that they both were trying to be clever and "surprising", it would have worked better if the reason was much simpler like reapers harvesting biological species to live/reproduce and the only reason they don't harvest all is that they are a bit smarter than us humans about our food supply. 

Yeah it would have been kinda cliche but considering how many things in ME were basically well re-purposed cliches that would have been absolutely fine.

 

The problems with the endings at least for me go all the way back to Mass Effect 1 when they made the Reapers as ridiculously powerful as they are, it almost feels like that they didn't think there would be a sequel and wouldn't have to worry about continuing the plot.



#35
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 675 messages

Hard to say, because we never saw what they did with it. Any ending were they try to say the Space Nazis weren't so wrong is nonsense. This version of the ending might at least have been tonally consistent with the series. 

 

Now, what if they were the radical space environmentalists to the parable of global warming?

 

It wasn't set up or even elaborated this way after the fact, but the Dark Energy thing could have justified itself were Dark Energy buildup something that could be reset by the cycles, rather than cumulatively build over them. If Dark Energy is something that is a seemingly inevitable part of galactic civilization in the ME universe, making such civilization tidy and easier to clean up would make sense.

 

The Reapers would rest on claims of technological determinism and self-interest. We know that e-zero (the stuff that makes the mass effect and dark energy) is both naturally occurring and artificially creatable, so it's only a matter of time before a civilization finds the Mass Effect. From there, Mass Effect just needs to be the best tech in the universe- either on its own or in conjunction with other tech paths- to make it's widespread adoption nearly inevitable. Mass Effect fields are a competitive advantage, and the civilizations that avoid it are weaker and fall to the groups that do. Even if/when civilizations start to understand the consequences- when stars like Haestrum start to destabilize- they're still caught in competitive traps where everyone has an incentive to still use e-zero even if everyone's stars will go out if everyone does. A galactic-scale prisoner's delimma.

 

So instead of 'genocidal war is inevitable,' the Reapers would have a slighly more familiar motive of 'selfish people destroy their world(s).' It'd still be on the cynical end of the spectrum of 'Malthus was right'- but that could also be what the Crucible is for. Something where beating the Reapers is incidental, not the real point.

 

 

Getting into real personal musings here, but if Dark Energy had been a thing I wouldn't have wanted the Crucible to destroy or control the Reapers- it'd be to destroy all element zero or trigger that dark energy tipping point right now, with the third option being a shakey cease-fire/standoff with the Reapers.

 

In option 1, Destroy, instead of all synthetics what you'd be doing is using all that dark energy buildup to destroy/render inert all element zero in the galaxy. More will come eventually- either naturally or artificially- so the problem is just kicked long, long into the future or the same delimma- but for now all e-zero is inert. That kills the Reapers, obviously- but it also cuts the knees of galactic civilization built on Reaper (e-zero) tech and space travel. There'd be other tech paths possible- a possible loot from a kept Collector Base- but none as good. An ending with Renegade themes, and in which the Renegade decision to keep the base may leave someone (albeit Cerberus and/or the Alliance after Cerberus station) with the Collector Base technologies that could accelerate the rebuilding afterwards.

 

In option 2, Accelerate, we don't necessarily destroy the Reapers as deny them their goal. On top of damaging them for some period, we tip off the galactic tipping point, giving our galaxy another, oh, thousand years before the stars start going out. By giving them nothing left to save, the Reapers have little reason to stay and finish the harvest, and so they flee the galaxy. The Council system survives, Relays and all, but with an ominous future. The time left is limited, the Council system must come together to manage the galactic exodus, and the Reapers are still out there and may try to keep us from reaching other galaxies and doing the same there. But with time to prepare and all of us standing together (or not), Shepard gets to live out their life and the Paragon-themed endings suggest species come together to organize the Exodus in the future.

 

And in option 3, stand down, we don't activate the Crucible but threaten the Reapers with it if they don't stand down first. Requires high reputation, strong war assets, etc.- but since either option ruins the Reapers, we can hit them with MAD. Cue epic stand off/stare down with Harbinger, the threat of 'I really will do it,' and... a lot of uncertainty. The Reapers stand down, and fracture along with what should happen. Some no doubt conspire to indoctrinate and worm their way in to deactivate the Crucible to resume the harvest. Some go off to build their armies for that day. Some just leave on their own, mysterious reasons. And some try to work on solutions with the new galaxy- which is just as unstable. The wartime alliance of necessity will break apart, the tension of the moment keeping everyone together will fade, and whether we're united or not there's still the question of who and how the cutback of e-zero usage will go. It's a very short-term solution with no clear direction. Maybe a solution will be found. Maybe it's impossible. Maybe the Crucible will be used again in the future after a Reaper attempt. Maybe the Reapers will successfully sabotage it and resume the harvest. No one knows. But everyone still alive gets to live, galactic civilization goes on, and Shepard walks away... for now.



#36
capn233

capn233
  • Members
  • 17 270 messages

Hard to say if the dark energy plot would have been better than thrusting the simplified version of organic-synthetic struggle to the forefront.

 

The real reason to go to Andromeda is of course to make money, since that is what makes galaxies go round.



#37
Laughing_Man

Laughing_Man
  • Members
  • 3 659 messages

Now, what if they were the radical space environmentalists to the parable of global warming?

 

...

 

Personally I don't feel the sympathy you feel towards the Reapers in this scenario just because their reasoning involves the magic words "space environmentalists", and would happily destroy them - the same as with the original ending.

 

I mean, if anything, the fact that an armada of space gods chose the dumbest and most cruel "solution" to the problem,

instead of working to become a true type 2+ or 3 civilization and finding ways to control and manage the stars themselves, is rather pathetic and short sighted.

 

I mean, wouldn't it be easier to try to prevent access to Eezo to begin with? Or develop alternate technology and plant it in the same way they planted Eezo tech for young races to find? Or actually find ways to deal with the buildup of dark energy itself?

Or plant themselves as literal gods to manage and educate new races as they appear?

 

The original ending was bad, but this one isn't impressive either.



#38
ArabianIGoggles

ArabianIGoggles
  • Members
  • 477 messages

The best solution was to not make ME1 a cliffhanger so they didn't have to think up a reason for the reapers' harvests.
Then they should have made a new setting for a completely different game and made that instead.

Or they could have advanced the plot in the second game. 


  • iM3GTR aime ceci

#39
Sanunes

Sanunes
  • Members
  • 4 373 messages

Or they could have advanced the plot in the second game. 

 

That is how I felt after playing Mass Effect 3, for if they ended the game at the Illusive Man's base and made another game about going back to Earth and defeating the Reapers I don't think it would have felt as rushed as it did to me.



#40
iM3GTR

iM3GTR
  • Members
  • 1 168 messages

Or they could have advanced the plot in the second game.


Basically this:
http://www.shamusyou...edtale/?p=28475

#41
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 593 messages

I think the pitfall for both "reasons" was that they both were trying to be clever and "surprising", it would have worked better if the reason was much simpler like reapers harvesting biological species to live/reproduce and the only reason they don't harvest all is that they are a bit smarter than us humans about our food supply. 
Yeah it would have been kinda cliche but considering how many things in ME were basically well re-purposed cliches that would have been absolutely fine.

Yeah, the cliche part would have worked. I'm not sure about the Reaper stupidity part. If you need to harvest organics to live, neither letting them develop to the point where they can actually do harm to you nor exterminating them after they do is a sensible way to go about the project.

I'm not sure this problem is soluble. ME1 saddled the Reapers with a non-rational plan, and nobody's ever come up with an explanation that really works well.

#42
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 593 messages

Basically this:http://www.shamusyou...edtale/?p=28475

Interesting article. But it's nothing more than a bucket of assumptions. It's also not really reconcilable with anything the devs have said about the process, either for ME1 or for any other game.

#43
Laughing_Man

Laughing_Man
  • Members
  • 3 659 messages

Yeah, the cliche part would have worked. I'm not sure about the Reaper stupidity part. If you need to harvest organics to live, neither letting them develop to the point where they can actually do harm to you nor exterminating them after they do is a sensible way to go about the project.

I'm not sure this problem is soluble. ME1 saddled the Reapers with a non-rational plan, and nobody's ever come up with an explanation that really works well.

 

I'm not sure rationality is that crucial for mechanized Cthulhu wannabes. The problem was that in ME3 they were no longer the unknowable monsters from dark space, and space brat actually tried to explain them.

 

If the situation is FUBAR and unwinnable due to mind controlling space gods, EA's other franchise (Dead Space) did a much better job at it with the Moons and their markers.

 

That said, maybe the Reapers cracked the magic of dragon age, and harvesting organics is just their way of getting access to blood-magic / indoctrination...



#44
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 593 messages
Sure. If a problem is insoluble, simply putting up with it rather than attempting to solve it may be your best approach.

I don't think that would have worked for me personally, but that's because I'm not fond of the Cthulhu trope in the first place. The only thing I like about mysteries is seeing them solved, particularly in SF. It would have been funny if the supposedly SF series devolved into incomprehensible mystery while the fantasy series ended up explaining stuff.

#45
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 675 messages

I'm not sure rationality is that crucial for mechanized Cthulhu wannabes. The problem was that in ME3 they were no longer the unknowable monsters from dark space, and space brat actually tried to explain them.

 

The FUBAR kinda started back in ME1, when Sovereign engaged in conversation to gloat and threaten.

 

That was all kinds of silly. Who gloats over ants? Bond villains, maybe, or sadistic little children, but unknowable monsters beyond our comprehension?

 

 

 

If the situation is FUBAR and unwinnable due to mind controlling space gods, EA's other franchise (Dead Space) did a much better job at it with the Moons and their markers.

 

 

Didn't Dead Space just leave off with a cliffhanger without trying to resolve it?

 

IIRC, canonically Dead Space ends with one Moon being killed-ish and the rest eating Earth with no real idea of how to stop them. If Dead Space ever does, it's going to be as convoluted and ass-pulled as ME.


  • In Exile et Il Divo aiment ceci

#46
Laughing_Man

Laughing_Man
  • Members
  • 3 659 messages

Didn't Dead Space just leave off with a cliffhanger without trying to resolve it?
 
IIRC, canonically Dead Space ends with one Moon being killed-ish and the rest eating Earth with no real idea of how to stop them. If Dead Space ever does, it's going to be as convoluted and ass-pulled as ME.

 
I am not entirely sure, I don't think I actually played through the ending of the last Dead Space, but the way I understand it, it was basically:

Spoiler

 
So yeah, they are probably not going to do Dead Space: Andromeda anyway, and the ending (the main idea anyway) as harsh and as unsentimental (and not really enjoyable, personally) as it is, makes more sense than all the nonsense of ME, because when you go against space Cthulhu - you lose.
 

The FUBAR kinda started back in ME1, when Sovereign engaged in conversation to gloat and threaten.

That was all kinds of silly. Who gloats over ants? Bond villains, maybe, or sadistic little children, but unknowable monsters beyond our comprehension?


I actually liked to some degree Sovereign's speech, and I would argue that it is not exactly inherently opposite to the Cthulhu theme -

after all even in that universe you have from time to time mortals who stumble upon truths that should have never been revealed,

or are unfortunate enough to look into the abyss long enough to figure out that it actually looks back...

 

Sometimes these gods or cosmic horrors (minor ones mainly) actually seem to derive some perverse enjoyment from the horror of said mortals.

 

But yes, I have to agree that while Mass Effect tried to evoke some Cthulhu feeling with the shape of the Reapers and some of the themes connected to them, it failed completely and utterly to actually go about it in a convincing manner, unlike Dead Space.



#47
Sanunes

Sanunes
  • Members
  • 4 373 messages

 

Didn't Dead Space just leave off with a cliffhanger without trying to resolve it?

 

IIRC, canonically Dead Space ends with one Moon being killed-ish and the rest eating Earth with no real idea of how to stop them. If Dead Space ever does, it's going to be as convoluted and ass-pulled as ME.

 

Yes and no, the main game you think you succeed by freezing the moon.  What you are describing is at the end of the DLC, which felt more related Dead Space 1 then the rest of the game.



#48
o Ventus

o Ventus
  • Members
  • 17 223 messages

Forget about all the scientific inaccuracies of this hypothetical plot, think of all the drama to be had?

 

I like my sci-fi to at least pretend to be scientifically literate.


  • Laughing_Man aime ceci

#49
o Ventus

o Ventus
  • Members
  • 17 223 messages

 

Didn't Dead Space just leave off with a cliffhanger without trying to resolve it?

 

IIRC, canonically Dead Space ends with one Moon being killed-ish and the rest eating Earth with no real idea of how to stop them. If Dead Space ever does, it's going to be as convoluted and ass-pulled as ME.

 

That's just the DLC ending, not the end of the main game, but I digress. Considering the tone of Dead Space compared to Mass Effect, if there is ever a 4th game, it will likely end with everybody dying or going insane (and then dying) and being assimilated to make a Brother Moon. There are no victories in Dead Space, just postponing the inevitable loss and failure. People like to attribute the term "grimdark" to Warhammer and W40k, but Dead Space is much worse in that respect, it makes the setting of Warhammer 40k look like a good thing in comparison.



#50
Laughing_Man

Laughing_Man
  • Members
  • 3 659 messages

Yes and no, the main game you think you succeed by freezing the moon.  What you are describing is at the end of the DLC, which felt more related Dead Space 1 then the rest of the game.

 

That's just the DLC ending, not the end of the main game

 

If I'm not wrong, the DLC ending is the actual ending, since it supposedly happens after the main game IIRC.