51 réponses à ce sujet

[GoldenGail3]

I like Leliana in DAI... So I never really imported a save where I killed her in DAO... Or did I? If I did, I was playing around with how it'd go be in DAI, and yeah.... But my canon never killed her, anyhow.

[DreamerM]

Tell the truth, it's been three games now and I'm STILL waiting for the other shoe to fall on what that her "vision from the Maker" really was. I don't think she had the artfulness, in her vulnerable post-torture state, to truly make up a fantasy that powerful, no matter how special she wanted to feel. We know people go to the Fade when they dream. They can interact with mages and spirits there, and usually not remember any of it when they wake up. I believe SOMETHING happened there, someone sent her to the Warden...not the Maker... but somebody.

My default reaction to Liliana was, "well she's obviously been a Chantry spy from the beginning." I figured somehow the Divine knew about the Warden and wanted someone keeping an eye on the Blight and the turmoil in Fereldan. I've changed my mind about this. We saw enough evidence to convince me that Liliana's story about the vision was true, or at least, SHE believes it is true. And she still does. What would another explanation be?

...then again, I was convinced Flemeth was one of the old dragon gods of Tevinter. And we know how that ended.... 

[straykat]

Tell the truth, it's been three games now and I'm STILL waiting for the other shoe to fall on what that her "vision from the Maker" really was. I don't think she had the artfulness, in her vulnerable post-torture state, to truly make up a fantasy that powerful, no matter how special she wanted to feel. We know people go to the Fade when they dream. They can interact with mages and spirits there, and usually not remember any of it when they wake up. I believe SOMETHING happened there, someone sent her to the Warden...not the Maker... but somebody.

My default reaction to Liliana was, "well she's obviously been a Chantry spy from the beginning." I figured somehow the Divine knew about the Warden and wanted someone keeping an eye on the Blight and the turmoil in Fereldan. I've changed my mind about this. We saw enough evidence to convince me that Liliana's story about the vision was true, or at least, SHE believes it is true. And she still does. What would another explanation be?

...then again, I was convinced Flemeth was one of the old dragon gods of Tevinter. And we know how that ended.... 

 

I don't even see why they'd care about my Warden. He's an insigificant lowlife, and one of thousands of elves who caused yet another elven rebellion in an alienage (objectively speaking, I mean. I don't feel this way). Who got recruited to the Wardens. And died at Ostagar.... by just about anyone's accounts. Leliana wouldn't be privy to much beyond that.

[DreamerM]

I don't even see why they'd care about my Warden. He's an insigificant lowlife, and one of thousands of elves who caused yet another elven rebellion in an alienage (objectively speaking, I mean. I don't feel this way). Who got recruited to the Wardens. And died at Ostagar.... by just about anyone's accounts. Leliana wouldn't be privy to much beyond that.

I don't know. In a world where Flemeth and Morrigan and who-knows-who-else are doing cryptic things and setting up plans years or even decades in advance, who's to say who's moving pieces on a chess board and who is privy to what information. Weirder things have happened. As I said, I don't know.

[straykat]

I find it cool enough that she met the CE's mother in Leliana's Song. It's a nice little nod to a possible future friendship. I don't want bigger plots than that. I hope not at least.

 

The reason why Flemeth is like that is that she's prescient. She's supposed to be steps ahead of everyone.

[BansheeOwnage]

I don't think bipolar fits her, but she's definitely got a huge Jekyll/Hyde thing going on that is indeed very creepy, especially in combination with being a master of "the Game". Plus she latches on to certain people way too hard for her own mental health, and her theology is sketchy as hell. That's primarily the fault of the writers who created a deistic religion but went on to routinely ignore that basic fact and instead write most of its adherents as explicitly theistic with not a single word of acknowledgement for that disconnect. It would have been easy to introduce different interpretations of the faith and overall give Andrastianism more depth, but like many aspects of the plot and setting, they apparently couldn't be bothered. Leliana is probably the worst "offender" in that regard, made extra bothersome by her belief in being so very special. Her faith seems to boil down to "the Maker wants whatever I want", and that is a stupendously dangerous mindset that should be kept far away from any position of power.

 

All in all, she strikes me as more of a powder keg waiting to blow up than a credible inspired and inspiring reformer. I want to like her more than I can, but there are just too many missed opportunities to address the inconsistencies in and problems of this character.

I'm not terribly well-versed in those kind of mental health conditions, so I don't know if bipolar is the best way to describe what she is. I suppose having a Jekyll/Hyde thing going on is what I meant. Anyway, you took the words about deism vs. theism right out of my mouth. It's quite inconsistent with the lore they established. While you could write Leliana off as a single outlier with her own interpretation (which would fit the rest of her religious leanings), it doesn't work when most of the population (especially in DA:I) have that world-view too.

[BansheeOwnage]

Tell the truth, it's been three games now and I'm STILL waiting for the other shoe to fall on what that her "vision from the Maker" really was. I don't think she had the artfulness, in her vulnerable post-torture state, to truly make up a fantasy that powerful, no matter how special she wanted to feel. We know people go to the Fade when they dream. They can interact with mages and spirits there, and usually not remember any of it when they wake up. I believe SOMETHING happened there, someone sent her to the Warden...not the Maker... but somebody.

Well, there's a theory floating around that Flemeth was responsible for her "vision", which would make sense since she saved the Warden and company and knew they were heading to Lothering.

[Sifr]

I don't think bipolar fits her, but she's definitely got a huge Jekyll/Hyde thing going on that is indeed very creepy, especially in combination with being a master of "the Game". Plus she latches on to certain people way too hard for her own mental health, and her theology is sketchy as hell.

 

As I've said elsewhere, Leliana always struck me as suffering from Dependent Personality Disorder more than anything else.

 

She ticks a lot of the boxes, such as latching onto strong personality figures that she totally devotes herself to, tends to idolise people and be blind to their faults, changes her personality and alters decisions to suit their needs, as well as feels totally lost when no-one is there to guide her.

 

She definitely comes across as someone with dependency issues, but I don't necessarily find her creepy because of it.

[vbibbi]

I'm not terribly well-versed in those kind of mental health conditions, so I don't know if bipolar is the best way to describe what she is. I suppose having a Jekyll/Hyde thing going on is what I meant. Anyway, you took the words about deism vs. theism right out of my mouth. It's quite inconsistent with the lore they established. While you could write Leliana off as a single outlier with her own interpretation (which would fit the rest of her religious leanings), it doesn't work when most of the population (especially in DA:I) have that world-view too.

I think bipolar is more of a high/low spectrum of energy and emotion. Something like schizophrenia might be more appropriate? I guess either could be applicable depending on how we're diagnosing her symptoms.

[Biotic Apostate]

I'm not terribly well-versed in those kind of mental health conditions, so I don't know if bipolar is the best way to describe what she is. I suppose having a Jekyll/Hyde thing going on is what I meant. Anyway, you took the words about deism vs. theism right out of my mouth. It's quite inconsistent with the lore they established. While you could write Leliana off as a single outlier with her own interpretation (which would fit the rest of her religious leanings), it doesn't work when most of the population (especially in DA:I) have that world-view too.

Bipolar disorder is not what you're looking for. There was a companion, whose behaviour was modelled after bipolar, and that was Anders. The most prominent are swings between periods of elevated mood, excitement, high energy, and lethargic, depressive, even suicidal periods. Plus there's self-loathing, paranoia, sometimes reckless behaviour. Never dramatic morality shifts.

 

The Jekyll and Hyde situation is a portrayal of dissociative identity disorder (previously referred to as multiple personality disorder), where a person has at least two distinct identities. But I don't think it applies here. Her behaviour would be far more erratic, and the shifts between personalities far more noticeable. After her personal mission, she mostly settles on one, it's not something that happens with DID.

 

Leliana is just very impressionable. Both Marjolaine and Justinia had a huge impact on her life, and she's trying to reconcile the ideals they represented, ways of life that worked for her. It's not helpful that Justinia preaches compassion and love, while using Leliana to do her dirty work. Kindness is what Leliana really wants to strive for, murder and deception is what Justinia expected from her. The Divine got to stay clean, and Leliana was left with the guilt. That's why Justinia (her spirit?) said she failed her, and that's why she "released" her from her duty.

 

To me, at least, it seems as she devotes herself to to her mentors entirely. Her ruthlessness is caused by their influence and moral flexibility (especially in the case of Justinia - "it needs to be done, for the greater good"), her kindness is her own instinct coming through.

 

"I am more than what Justinia made me." she says that in the "un-hardening" route. It's when she realises that the goal does not justify the means. When she decides to act on her own instincts, according to her own conscience, rather than let people use her. "Death and deception is my trade, it is what I am." she says in the other route, letting the role Justinia gave her erase her own emotions and individuality.

 

Of course this is a game, and leaving the war table missions the same ("let's murder them! let's blackmail that bridge into existence!") is a side effect of letting the spy master have a change of heart.

 

Disclaimer: DAO is a distant memory for me, and this is just my impression of what the writers were going for based on DAI.

[straykat]

I'm not terribly well-versed in those kind of mental health conditions, so I don't know if bipolar is the best way to describe what she is. I suppose having a Jekyll/Hyde thing going on is what I meant. Anyway, you took the words about deism vs. theism right out of my mouth. It's quite inconsistent with the lore they established. While you could write Leliana off as a single outlier with her own interpretation (which would fit the rest of her religious leanings), it doesn't work when most of the population (especially in DA:I) have that world-view too.

 

It worked until this game.

 

As for mental illness, I couldn't say. She's productive. Even in her tragic state. That's not like any bi-polar, I know.

[Gervaise]

The thing that shook me the most was her suddenly spring the idea on me that we didn't need to save Celene from the assassin.   First run I was gobsmacked at this and was glad I did get the option to say "I thought we were here to save her".   I'd been a bit bemused from the beginning that I'd gone from trying to stop Corypheus' plan from materialising to deciding who should sit on the throne of Orlais.   I really hadn't thought I was that important in the grand scheme of things.   Then she suggests that not only do I let Celene die but that I put Briala on the throne.   Even as an elf that seemed like a pretty far fetched idea and only someone who was slightly insane would even suggest that it might work.   So that run I opted to make all three work together but later I experimented with the option of letting Briala take over and what do you know, the crazy idea actually worked (probably until the end of Trespasser when I disbanded the Inquisition).  

 

The plus side of letting Leliana be Divine is that she will probably reduce its significance in the world, what with changing thousand year old dogma and deciding it is going to be devoted to charitable work instead of being the intensely political organisation that it was before.  So on the whole I'm happy to go with the softened Leliana as Divine.   It is totally unbelievable but then so is a mage Divine, so what the hell.  

 

I have to admit that I preferred her version of the Maker in DAO, which was apparently heretical, but had more of a pantheistic take on him with him really being the force behind nature, etc.     So that Leliana didn't really expect him to answer her prayers or feel let down when he didn't, even if she had received a special "vision" from him.     Going back to the Chantry and serving the Divine really didn't do any good to her view of the Maker and his relation with the world, which is odd because I'm almost sure that last thing she told me she'd be doing was some research into the origins of the Blight, not serving the Divine.   Mind you, her friend hadn't ascended to the Sunburst Throne then.   I remember reading that the previous Divine recommending Dorothea to the post and her getting voted in, did come as something of a surprise.   Do you suppose Leliana had a hand in that?

[Mistic]

I have to admit that I preferred her version of the Maker in DAO, which was apparently heretical, but had more of a pantheistic take on him with him really being the force behind nature, etc. So that Leliana didn't really expect him to answer her prayers or feel let down when he didn't, even if she had received a special "vision" from him.

 

Really? I thought that her point in DA:O was precisely that the Maker hadn't abandoned Thedas ("He is still here") and that he heard their prayers and tried to send some good to them (hope, love, etc.). In her mind, the Maker did answer her by sending her a vision and others could enjoy the same grace, according to her party banter in DA:O ("The Maker speaks to people; they just don't know how to listen").

 

If anything, it's official Chantry dogma which paints the Maker as an absent god who doesn't really answer prayers. People must pray not because the Maker will answer them, but because they failed him twice in the past and they must bring the Chant everywhere for the Maker to come back.

 

Although it's never addressed properly, it's one of the reasons the Chantry calls the Inquisition 'heretics'. By selling the Inquisitor as "the Herald of Andraste", they are basically saying that the Maker did exactly what Chantry dogma says he won't do, that is, intervene and send help to answer the faithful's prayers. It might have been circumvented by saying that it wasn't exactly the Maker, but Blessed Andraste's intercession.

[Reznore57]

 

 

If anything, it's official Chantry dogma which paints the Maker as an absent god who doesn't really answer prayers. People must pray not because the Maker will answer them, but because they failed him twice in the past and they must bring the Chant everywhere for the Maker to come back.

 

Although it's never addressed properly, it's one of the reasons the Chantry calls the Inquisition 'heretics'. By selling the Inquisitor as "the Herald of Andraste", they are basically saying that the Maker did exactly what Chantry dogma says he won't do, that is, intervene and send help to answer the faithful's prayers. It might have been circumvented by saying that it wasn't exactly the Maker, but Blessed Andraste's intercession.

 

Well they think the Maker will come back when everybody is singing the Chant or something.

So let's say it's nearly impossible this will happen , it means converting Qunari , converting even people overseas in unknown lands...and the Chantry isn't even trying to convert in an agressive manner for quite some time.

I imagine they think the Maker will cool down when people are worthy enough or whatever .Or people believe in the apocalyptic vision Drakon had about the Maker coming back when it's nearly the ends of time.

But anyway it isn't exactly a massive stretch for the faithful to think the Maker would interfere in case of a Blight , or the Breach or any apocalyptic event .

[Korva]

What annoys me about DA more is the entirety of DAI hinges on a non-deistic plot too... suddenly a ton of people are like Leliana. Just so they can tell this story.

Exactly. It makes zero sense, and as I said it would have been so incredibly easy to fix that issue by officially introducing different more or less accepted interpretations of the faith (just don't make it shallow tripe like "theists" = "kind and progressive" and "deists" = "reactionary and uncaring"). The fact that the whole Herald angle hinges on an entirely unacknowledged disconnect between lore and plot is mind-boggling, but sadly not unusual for Bioware. As it is, the belief in an agent of the Maker (or of his Prophet) should be a political danger to the Inquisition because of how heretical it is. Perfect ammunition for its enemies, especially once Venatori agents fan the fires behind the scenes.

 

She ticks a lot of the boxes, such as latching onto strong personality figures that she totally devotes herself to, tends to idolise people and be blind to their faults, changes her personality and alters decisions to suit their needs, as well as feels totally lost when no-one is there to guide her.

 

Yes, and I think that also plays heavily in her odd belief system. She needs to feel special and guided and loved, and projecting that onto a supposedly deistic deity has the ever so convenient side-effect that said deity will never be able to contradict her, and also won't die on her like her mortal idols.

 

She definitely comes across as someone with dependency issues, but I don't necessarily find her creepy because of it.

 

Maybe not creepy per se, but certainly worrying IMO. It's not healthy, and it makes her (more) unstable. Granted, I've never been a fan of NPCs whose behavior and beliefs can diverge so dramatically, especially if it is barely acknowledged, because it really interferes with the character having a story arc that feels "real".

 

"I am more than what Justinia made me." she says that in the "un-hardening" route. It's when she realises that the goal does not justify the means. When she decides to act on her own instincts, according to her own conscience, rather than let people use her. "Death and deception is my trade, it is what I am." she says in the other route, letting the role Justinia gave her erase her own emotions and individuality.

 

While I think that the war table missions often don't do the advisors justice (*), I don't agree that "softened" Leliana is somehow more her real self. Both the nicey-nice-happy-feels Leliana and the bloody-handed mass murderer Leliana are equally intrinsic aspects of her personality (and it's not as if the former Divine was not a huge positive influence on her as well as a problematic one). She seesaws between them too frequently and easily for me to really be able to trust her, or trust that "softening" her during Inquisition will be any more permanent than her past personality flipflops. Although she knows fully well what an atrocity "the Game" is and in fact has been a victim of its no-holds-barred sadism and treachery before, she still relishes and defends it instead of seeing any of it as an ugly necessity or trying to take a less bloody path like Josie does. Plus, "softening" her is the much more difficult path, and I don't think that can only be blamed on bad mechanics.

 

(*) Cullen seems to get the most flak for being a hammer that sees every problem as a nail, yet Leliana and Josie do the same, and in fact Cullen is the sole voice of reason in a few missions.

[Aren]

So, my first game of Da:O, I missed her completely. I mean, a guy outside the bar says the place is filled, literally, with people looking to kill my Warden . Like, why would anyone go in? So, yeah, I'm not dumb, I walk away and off to the rest of the game. Edit add: My RP character said that. I wasn't implying that anyone who did go in was dumb.

 

 

After traveling for miles since the beginning of the game and never once have been offered a drink i felt an immense sense of thirsty so i decided to enter into the Middle Ages bar only to discover that they didn't had drinks to offer, just problems.

[straykat]

Exactly. It makes zero sense, and as I said it would have been so incredibly easy to fix that issue by officially introducing different more or less accepted interpretations of the faith (just don't make it shallow tripe like "theists" = "kind and progressive" and "deists" = "reactionary and uncaring"). The fact that the whole Herald angle hinges on an entirely unacknowledged disconnect between lore and plot is mind-boggling, but sadly not unusual for Bioware. As it is, the belief in an agent of the Maker (or of his Prophet) should be a political danger to the Inquisition because of how heretical it is. Perfect ammunition for its enemies, especially once Venatori agents fan the fires behind the scenes.

 

Did I already say I thought it was something concocted by their marketing department? Because that's what I think.

 

Ever seen that video of Kevin Smith when he was in talks with WB about making Superman years back? It's a hilarious little talk about the film industry and how he had to compromise with a film producer who wanted a Superman with "no flying and no suit" and insisted there was a scene with a Giant Spider in it.

 

That's how I pretty much picture this.

[BansheeOwnage]

I think bipolar is more of a high/low spectrum of energy and emotion. Something like schizophrenia might be more appropriate? I guess either could be applicable depending on how we're diagnosing her symptoms.

 

Bipolar disorder is not what you're looking for. There was a companion, whose behaviour was modelled after bipolar, and that was Anders. The most prominent are swings between periods of elevated mood, excitement, high energy, and lethargic, depressive, even suicidal periods. Plus there's self-loathing, paranoia, sometimes reckless behaviour. Never dramatic morality shifts.

 

The Jekyll and Hyde situation is a portrayal of dissociative identity disorder (previously referred to as multiple personality disorder), where a person has at least two distinct identities. But I don't think it applies here. Her behaviour would be far more erratic, and the shifts between personalities far more noticeable. After her personal mission, she mostly settles on one, it's not something that happens with DID.

Thanks for further/more accurate descriptions, since I'm not too well-versed in most mental health stuff. Whatever we could "diagnose" Leliana with however, I don't think the writers intended her character to showcase that sort of thing. I'm not saying anyone thought differently, just reiterating my earlier thoughts.

[TobiTobsen]

Tell the truth, it's been three games now and I'm STILL waiting for the other shoe to fall on what that her "vision from the Maker" really was. I don't think she had the artfulness, in her vulnerable post-torture state, to truly make up a fantasy that powerful, no matter how special she wanted to feel. We know people go to the Fade when they dream. They can interact with mages and spirits there, and usually not remember any of it when they wake up. I believe SOMETHING happened there, someone sent her to the Warden...not the Maker... but somebody.
 

 

 

Well, there's a theory floating around that Flemeth was responsible for her "vision", which would make sense since she saved the Warden and company and knew they were heading to Lothering.

 

Isn't the Guardian in DAO explicitly telling you that she made up the vision to get attention? Since the guy is right on pretty much everything else I'm inclined to believe what he says.

[Shechinah]

Isn't the Guardian in DAO explicitly telling you that she made up the vision to get attention? Since the guy is right on pretty much everything else I'm inclined to believe what he says.

 

Here's a transcript of the dialogue;

 

Guardian: "And you... why do you say the Maker speaks to you, when all know that the Maker has left? He spoke only to Andraste. Do you believe yourself Her equal?

Leliana: "I never said that! I-"

Guardian: "In Orlais, you were someone. In Lothering, you feared you would lose yourself, become a drab sister and disappear. When your brothers and sisters of the cloister criticized you for what you professed, you were hurt but you also reveled in it. It made you special. You enjoyed the attention, even if it was negative"

Leliana: "You're saying I made it up, for... for the attention? I did not! I know what I believe!"

 

[Shechinah]

If the vision was not authentic, it may have been a genuine dream of Leliana's and she may not conciously have done it for attention nor with the concious intent to have an identity that stood out. 

 

It's interpretative is what I'm saying.

[Bardox9]

Liliana was always a bit... odd. I tend to go with Marjolaine advice. You can't trust her. Lying is like breathing for her. She was especially good at lying to herself. She is a spy and an Assassin. If you become inconvenient or out live your usefulness, she might kill you just to tie off a loose end. Every encounter we have with her through out the series leaves me with the feeling that I have just been the target of a grifter's conjob.

 

She's just watching you. Learning your strengths and weaknesses, how you move, how you think... She is loyal to herself alone. As long as your goals align with hers, then you're good. If your goals ever deviate, you might suddenly find an arrow ripping through your heart.

 

Creepy? She's a homicidal psychopath. Of course she's "creepy".

[Korva]

Did I already say I thought it was something concocted by their marketing department? Because that's what I think.

 

While I'm normally very much inclined to aim my cynicism at marketing nonsense, I'm not letting the writers off the hook in this case. I did enjoy Inquisition for the most part, but the lack of depth and coherence to the story made it feel like they just grabbed a handful of loose ends and half-arsedly spun them into a threadbare figleaf of a plot while not-so-sneakily setting up the story they really wanted to tell, i.e. Solas and the ancient elves.

 

 

Ever seen that video of Kevin Smith when he was in talks with WB about making Superman years back? It's a hilarious little talk about the film industry and how he had to compromise with a film producer who wanted a Superman with "no flying and no suit" and insisted there was a scene with a Giant Spider in it.

 

 

Wow. That's ... sometimes you don't know whether to laugh or cry, eh?

 

Whatever we could "diagnose" Leliana with however, I don't think the writers intended her character to showcase that sort of thing.

 

Probably not, yes. I still don't know what impression we're "supposed" to get from her.

 

If the vision was not authentic, it may have been a genuine dream of Leliana's and she may not conciously have done it for attention nor with the concious intent to have an identity that stood out.

 

Thanks for the quote! That would more or less be my interpretation too. Not an outright lie or self-aggrandization, but it does fit very conveniently into her need to be "special" -- and if that spirit intended to test everyone's resolve, it had to punch an actual sore spot so there's definitely some truth to its words. The "sudden perfect bloom on a dead rosebush" bit is the only thing that makes me hesitate to think of her "vision" as merely a vivid dream.

[Melbella]

The "sudden perfect bloom on a dead rosebush" bit is the only thing that makes me hesitate to think of her "vision" as merely a vivid dream.

I always consider this the same rose that Alistair picks in Lothering to give to the (female) Warden.

[GoldenGail3]

I always consider this the same rose that Alistair picks in Lothering to give to the (female) Warden.

I believe that as well.