489 réponses à ce sujet

[Fogg]

Nice find!

 

Hm.. A fantasy writer.. I don't like fantasy..

[Ruadh]

'Deception is a bit iffy with the lore' - That's like saying Jared Fogle is a bit iffy with children. Deception was the book where lore went to die; twitching in a puddle of its own **** and bleeding out through a toothbrush wound to the heart. 

 

A good writer is well and fine, but if this new book is gonna work, it needs somebody who hasn't just played the games, but knows them. Somebody obsessed more with the lore and themes rather than counting how many 'people of colour' there are. Then again, with Patrick 'we live in a rape culture' Weekes now at the helm for Dragon Age, I guess she'll fit right in. 

 

While I'm at it, how is the term 'people of colour' any different from the term 'coloured people'? The latter of which is generally considered racist. 

 

'Darkies' is a racist term, but if I change it to 'people that are dark', this makes it OK? Is that how it works? Guide me SJW overlords, guide me.

[Laughing_Man]

A good writer is well and fine, but if this new book is gonna work, it needs somebody who hasn't just played the games, but knows them. Somebody obsessed more with the lore and themes rather than counting how many 'people of colour' there are.

 

Indeed.

[ElitePinecone]

it needs somebody who hasn't just played the games, but knows them. Somebody obsessed more with the lore and themes rather than counting how many 'people of colour' there are. 

 

This is a straw man, and you're setting up a false dichotomy between "real fans" and people who are interested in issues of representation and social themes in videogames and pop culture more generally. 

 

It's perfectly possible to be both, at the same time. Someone can certainly be obsessed with the lore and themes of the franchise while also examining how it handles racial/social/sexual themes.

 

Indeed, I would think being interested in the latter is actually a mark of more maturity, if we're counting. It elevates a person's interest in the series beyond superficial immersion in its constructed "universe" to a perspective that allows for critical engagement with the context of the games' development, with games as an art form and commercial product, and with what the games' lore and themes tell us about the society and cultural currents that built them. "Really liking Mass Effect" is a reasonable standard to say somebody is a fan, but to my mind it's far more interesting if the people who play the game can actually reflect on its themes, content and context in a meaningful way. 

 

Whether you agree with her or not, it's surely a good thing that N. K. Jemisin has actually played the trilogy - unlike, for instance, William Dietz.

[Ahriman]

 

It's perfectly possible to be both, at the same time. Someone can certainly be obsessed with the lore and themes of the franchise while also examining how it handles racial/social/sexual themes.

 

Indeed, I would think being interested in the latter is actually a mark of more maturity, if we're counting. It elevates a person's interest in the series beyond superficial immersion in its constructed "universe" to a perspective that allows for critical engagement with the context of the games' development, with games as an art form and commercial product, and with what the games' lore and themes tell us about the society and cultural currents that built them.

So watching for social justice in videogames is now considered mature? Oh dear, I've got so edgy that cut my fedora.

 

Whether you agree with her or not, it's surely a good thing that N. K. Jemisin has actually played the trilogy - unlike, for instance, William Dietz.

That's an impressive feat for someone who writes a book about a game, can't argue with that. Sometimes even writers of an actual game don't bother with previous chapters. I'm serious here.

[UpUpAway95]

'Deception is a bit iffy with the lore' - That's like saying Jared Fogle is a bit iffy with children. Deception was the book where lore went to die; twitching in a puddle of its own **** and bleeding out through a toothbrush wound to the heart. 

 

A good writer is well and fine, but if this new book is gonna work, it needs somebody who hasn't just played the games, but knows them. Somebody obsessed more with the lore and themes rather than counting how many 'people of colour' there are. Then again, with Patrick 'we live in a rape culture' Weekes now at the helm for Dragon Age, I guess she'll fit right in. 

 

While I'm at it, how is the term 'people of colour' any different from the term 'coloured people'? The latter of which is generally considered racist. 

 

'Darkies' is a racist term, but if I change it to 'people that are dark', this makes it OK? Is that how it works? Guide me SJW overlords, guide me.

 

In fairness to Jemisin, the blog post was written in 2014 and was apparently based on a first playthrough of the game.  We don't know whether or not she has since replayed it, reanalyzed things, and/or perhaps changed some of her opinions about it.  I haven't been following Jemisin, so I really don't know whether or not her general stance on certain social issues has "matured" or changed more recently.  As I've posted before, I was not really implying anything by posting the link... just thought people might be interested to know that she had actually played the game and had posted some of her impressions on it.

[ElitePinecone]

So watching for social justice in videogames is now considered mature? Oh dear, I've got so edgy that cut my fedora.

 

Your snarkiness isn't exactly doing you any favours, mate  

 

It's the difference between having an obsessive interest in only the internal lore/characters/narratives of a game universe, versus also engaging with the society that made it. A mature consumer of art or media (and games are arguably both) won't just stop at knowing everything that happens in a game's fictional universe, they'll also consider what went into making it, the intersection of the game with other cultural movements, and how the game itself affects wider culture. 

 

I'm not even saying that only a progressive examination of media or art is a sign of maturity as a fan. There are plenty of people who critically evaluate Bioware's games from a perspective that dismisses or is hostile towards social justice movements. The regular "wahhh why are there female warriors" threads on this forum are a pretty good example - those people are (sincerely, unless they're trolling) looking at how the universe of the games intersects with historical and modern debates about gender roles, social norms, etc. Criticising Bioware's recent games for being progressive is a sign of mature engagement in the same way as counting the number of people of colour is, both show that someone is going beyond the actual content of the game to show an interest in how it (as an art form or product) intersects with modern society. 

 

My point is that setting up a divide between "people who know the games and their lore" and "people who care about issues of representation or social justice" is silly. Many people do both. If you're disqualifying authors because they show an interest in games' themes and context beyond just memorising the Codex, you're going to end up with lore nerds who don't have much at all to say about anything.

[7twozero]

Only the Avatar, master of four elements can stop them. But when Mass Effect needed him most, he vanished...

I always played as femvitar, tbh I felt like the voice acting just had a lot more character and depth

[Beerfish]

1)  I enjoy books based on BioWare games.

2)  I hate prequel books on BioWare games.

[Laughing_Man]

It's the difference between having an obsessive interest in only the internal lore/characters/narratives of a game universe, versus also engaging with the society that made it. A mature consumer of art or media (and games are arguably both) won't just stop at knowing everything that happens in a game's fictional universe, they'll also consider what went into making it, the intersection of the game with other cultural movements, and how the game itself affects wider culture.

 

The problem with her blog post was that the majority of what she had to say in regards to ME was about those topics.

 

I'd take a writer obsessed with the lore and themes of the universe he is writing about any day, over one who is more interested in his / her own politics

and perceived (or imagined) social justice problems.

 

I'm interested in Mass Effect, not political commentary about mass effect, nor preaching about her views on "equality", and when I see a blog post

like this, its enough to make me wary. (even if not surprised)

[CronoDragoon]

BioWare's last 3 books have been great, leagues better than Drew K's book trilogy, so I'm hoping if true this continues the trend.

[vbibbi]

Questions to all:

 

Would you like to have a prequel novel that explains the trip to Andromeda, such as why they left, how they travel, and situations that occur during the trip? 

 

Would you like to read about the new characters and their backstories?

 

Heck no. If the novel is about explaining the exodus, then we know the actual game won't go into any detail and will leave those narrative details out. Bioware did this in DAI with using Asunder and ME in order to flesh out the Mage-Templar war and the Orlesian Civil War. Neither were given much depth or focus in the game, and someone who had not read either book would probably have gotten a lot less complete picture of the situation. These are two major events of the game, not filling in backstory of a character or a side adventure which helps lore but doesn't affect the main plot.

 

Nice find!

 

Hm.. A fantasy writer.. I don't like fantasy..

 

*Looks at profile and sees you've played all three DA games and JE* Oookay?

[En Es Ef Dubyu]

If anyone wants to read her review see below:
 

Spoiler

Mass Effect:
 
asdfjkl; This is the best game series EVAR that’s it that’s the review. What, you want more? ::sigh:: Fiiiine.
 
How do I love this trilogy; let me count the ways. Well, OK, I hated ME1, and could only bring myself to play it after skipping ahead to ME2 and falling in love with the universe. (What did I hate about ME1? Every Mako mission. The thin-as-paper characterization and the awful combat controls. That. ********. Mako.) But I loved the complex storyline, dead-end plots and all (dark energy? whut?). I loved the characters — yeah, all of them, though some could’ve used better writing. I loved the voice acting, though Jennifer Hale beats the pants off Mark Meer; sorry, mShep fans. I loved that the entire third game was basically an ending, as complexified and drawn-out as a book can never get; you could take as much time as you needed to say goodbye to the characters and universe, and you could do it as sorrowfully or joyfully as you needed to, especially via the Citadel DLC (highly recommended, BTW). I loved that there were women and people of color everywhere — in the background and foreground alike — and I loved that I could make my protagonist another one if I chose. I even loved the combat (by the second game), and I hate shooters.
 
There were of course some flaws. The worldbuilding has the usual SFF issues — e.g., for a global military, the Alliance sure seems awfully North American in its structure and culture. The asari could have been a brilliant idea, as a monogendered species capable of “mating” with anyone, but in actual practice they were just Blue Space Babes. And I hated that their presence apparently prevented the game’s designers from including a logical number of non-male members of every species. (My headcanon is that the volus, the batarians, the vorcha, and the hanar — none of whom even mentioned the existence of other genders IIRC — are also monogendered, presenting as male or agendered. That makes the asari more palatable to me.) I wasn’t fond of some of the character details — Jack and the magical healing ****, Kaidan’s latent sexism that appears only when he’s romanced by a female PC, Jacob’s utterly stereotypical backstory and romance (see previous link for that too). The “endings debate” is basically a nonissue for me; as I said, I consider the whole game to be the trilogy’s end, not merely the red/blue/green options that so many players get incomprehensibly upset about, and I thought the whole thing was brilliant. (Incidentally, I prefer blue.)
 
But these are tolerable flaws given that the game gets so much else right. Hell, part of my problem with Bioshock Infinite is probably that I started it right after finishing an ME3 playthrough. That made the limitations and glaring logic flaws of B:I stand out more.
 
So, that’s what I’ve been up to for stress relief, lately. Next on the menu: Dragon Age: Inquisition. Already got it reserved, of course. And I am so excited.
 
* That is totally a word. I’m a writer and I said so.
 
** It’s never clear whether DeWitt self-identifies as white, Indian, or something else. His heritage is known and discussed by other characters, however.
 
- See more at: http://nkjemisin.com...h.EhvGzBJR.dpuf

 

 

 

 

It reads like a typical fangirl reaction to a first playthrough (which is okay). I had a similar moment/moments especially in the Thane thread (former username redacted). I have concerns, but not so much with her sociopolitical views.

 

Things I agree with:

 

"And I hated that their presence apparently prevented the game’s designers from including a logical number of non-male members of every species.(My headcanon is that the volus, the batarians, the vorcha, and the hanar — none of whom even mentioned the existence of other genders IIRC — are also monogendered, presenting as male or agendered. That makes the asari more palatable to me.)"

 

-Well, actually it's just that the art team cannot fathom how to make a female alien. I mean whatchagonnado put lipstick and boobs on it. It's too complicated.

 

 

 

"Jack and the magical healing ****"

 

 

-Love Dean_the_young's comments about Jack's romance

 

"Well, all Shepard romances are an example of someone in a position of authority playing a favorite by screwing a subordinate. On those grounds alone is the first mark. But, in short: Jack's is to **** an emotionally traumatized person who needs therapy (which is exploitative), Tali's is **** someone at real and open risk to their  health because of their hero-worship (which is exploitative), and Miranda... Miranda is a bit less exploitative, but I find the dialogue about how she really only smiles after taking some vitamin D to be offensive for the same reason I find Jack's ME2 arc disgraceful.

 

Tali's could have been far sweeter and less hormonal if it were responsible and passed on the physical risk in exchange for a tender, emotional unity or even, god forbid, toys. Jack's would have been less creepy if it had a non-romance arc conclusion of Jack healing and connecting with others after anything other than Shepard's magic healing ****. And no, ME3 doesn't cancel out the nature of ME2's work."

 

http://forum.bioware...mances/page-169

 

 

 

 

"Kaidan’s latent sexism that appears only when he’s romanced by a female PC"

 

-Don't get me started on how different Kaidan and Ashley can be responded to about accusations of cheating. Glad I didn't romance him. Basically, if you romanced Ashley in ME1 and someone else in ME2, and she accuses you of cheating, you can defend yourself without needing to apologize. If you romanced Kaidan in ME1 (I never did) and romanced someone else in ME2, and he accuses you of cheating, you canNOT defend yourself and either apologize or lie, in which case he puts you down further for lying and you just have to take it.

 

 

 

"Jacob’s utterly stereotypical backstory and romance"

 

 

 

 

 

Things I don't agree with:

 

"I loved that the entire third game was basically an ending, as complexified and drawn-out as a book can never get"

 

 

"The “endings debate” is basically a nonissue for me; as I said, I consider the whole game to be the trilogy’s end, not merely the red/blue/green options that so many players get incomprehensibly upset about, and I thought the whole thing was brilliant. (Incidentally, I prefer blue.)"

 

 

I hope she has replayed and reexamined the trilogy since 2014. If, and only going on what I see above, this is the person writing the prequel to Andromeda, then expect a heavy dose of Cerberus   .

[Beerfish]

The big issue I have with these prequels is that it creates a bias for me on any number of things in the coming game.  This is especially true if they decided to use some characters from the books in the games.  I had very strong biases regarding characters like Celene, Briala, Cole, etc from books that came out before I played the games they referenced.

[gabdalla92]

1 - in that catalogue, for which the link i posted yesterday, the mass effect book front image appeared in the 1st page, as well as there was "info" on it on the page 39. As some people pointed out, they removed it from the catalogue already. I wonder if Bioware are "monitoring" the forum in silence.

2 - The writer said she hated ME1 and she played the entire trilogy in 2014. Ive played the entire trilogy last year. Ive never had a gamer PC until 2014, so ive spent a lot of time "catching up" with gaming, playing a lot of classics. However, last year i was already playing more modern games and when i decided to play the ME, which i did because ive read tons of great commentaries on it, i didnt enjoy ME1 one bit. The game didnt age very well. The combat is totally clunky as well as you lose a lot of time walking in pratically life empty scenarios. I didnt give up and played it until the end, doe. The history was kinda good but the game was meh. Couple of months later i started ME2 (last september) and oh my god i fell in love with mass effect universe... i bought ME3 right after ive beat ME2 and started to play straight away. Finished ME3 3 days after i beat ME2 (doing all the side quests)... so yeah i do agree with Jensen. I didnt like ME1 very much.

 

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut. After playin' ME2 i realized the importance of playing the first one. What made me fall in love for the game (which i did in ME2) was seeing Normandy AGAIN, the characters of the first game etc. So, i dont think you can really enjoy and appreciate the series without playing the first game. And maybe its concerning that the author didnt play it til the end.

[En Es Ef Dubyu]

1 - in that catalogue, for which the link i posted yesterday, the mass effect book front image appeared in the 1st page, as well as there was "info" on it on the page 39. As some people pointed out, they removed it from the catalogue already. I wonder if Bioware are "monitoring" the forum in silence.

2 - The writer said she hated ME1 and she played the entire trilogy in 2014. Ive played the entire trilogy last year. Ive never had a gamer PC until 2014, so ive spent a lot of time "catching up" with gaming, playing a lot of classics. However, last year i was already playing more modern games and when i decided to play the ME, which i did because ive read tons of great commentaries on it, i didnt enjoy ME1 one bit. The game didnt age very well. The combat is totally clunky as well as you lose a lot of time walking in pratically life empty scenarios. I didnt give up and played it until the end, doe. The history was kinda good but the game was meh. Couple of months later i started ME2 (last september) and oh my god i fell in love with mass effect universe... i bought ME3 right after ive beat ME2 and started to play straight away. Finished ME3 3 days after i beat ME2 (doing all the side quests)... so yeah i do agree with Jensen. I didnt like ME1 very much.

 

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut. After playin' ME2 i realized the importance of playing the first one. What made me fall in love for the game (which i did in ME2) was seeing Normandy AGAIN, the characters of the first game etc. So, i dont think you can really enjoy and appreciate the series without playing the first game. And maybe its concerning that the author didnt play it til the end.

They do. I watch what threads they enter when they come on and for how long. Does that make me a weirdo stalker? 

 

For example, Conal Pierse recently ventured into this thread for several minutes days after it was locked:

http://forum.bioware...ders-be-in-mea/

[ElitePinecone]

The problem with her blog post was that the majority of what she had to say in regards to ME was about those topics.

 

That's a fair point, although I think - again - you're insisting on a separation of politics and lore that is pretty much impossible to achieve. The creators of Mass Effect weren't neutral and objective when they made its lore, and everyone writing about the universe (as a game designer or an author) is going to have opinions on its characters/themes/settings/stories, and that all involves social issues and politics that come from our own world. 

 

I guess we'll just have to see the final product. I'm not familiar with her work at all, or how she writes, so I don't know if those sort of concerns are justified at this point. Presumably Bioware will have an internal quality control and editing process, particularly after the disaster of what happened with ME Deception, so I think the risk of huge lore mistakes this time around is probably going to much lower.

 

I *do* think it's not necessarily a bad thing if someone approaches the series with the intention of exploring areas that were given pretty much no attention in the past, though. After the way Deception handled the ME universe's only gay male character, it wouldn't be surprising to me if they tried to make up for that in future novels. 

[In Exile]

I'm not sure I believe this. N. K. Jemisin is too "legit" an author to be doing a video game tie-in book.

Huge coup for Bioware if its true, though.

That was my first take but it seems like she's a gamer and a big fan of the series. Wouldn't be surprised to see that she's willing to give a novel a shot, but who knows whether any of her treatment will survive.

[In Exile]

She indirectly confirmed the book. Instead of typing that tweet saying contracts are keeping you from saying anything, I would have just kept my mouth (fingers) shut.

That doesn't mean there's a book by her. She could have written a draft that was rejected, or the book will be cancelled. She only confirmed she's under contract.

[In Exile]

Keep in mind, ME1 came out awhile ago, it is hardly fair to judge it in comparison to industry standards of 2016.

Regarding the Asari, I don't see why a game developer catering to the big majority of its audience is unfair. That's just business strategy.

We can judge it by the standards of years before, because games like KotOR, the BG series, Planescape all existed. The characters were paper thin and had very few interactions compared to before.

[von uber]

For God's sake can we have at least one thread that isn't turned into 'SJW are ruining MY games!'.

[En Es Ef Dubyu]

For God's sake can we have at least one thread that isn't turned into 'SJW are ruining MY games!'.

 No, and it is going to get worse. It's quite common for me to go through each day hearing at least once, "SJW are ruining MY country".

[Killroy]

Nice find!

 

Hm.. A fantasy writer.. I don't like fantasy..

 

Then why do you like Mass Effect? It's all space magic, heroes' journey, recruiting space-orcs and space-elves, etc. Mass Effect is about as sci-fi as Star Wars. That is to say, it's fantasy done up to look like sci-fi.

 

BioWare's last 3 books have been great, leagues better than Drew K's book trilogy, so I'm hoping if true this continues the trend.

 

Isn't 'Deception' one of their last 3 books? Or have I missed one? 

[CronoDragoon]

Isn't 'Deception' one of their last 3 books? Or have I missed one? 

 

Asunder, Masked Empire, Last Flight have been their last 3. Never even bothered reading Deception after hearing about the issues.

[Beerfish]

For God's sake can we have at least one thread that isn't turned into 'SJW are ruining MY games!'.

Many complaints in this regard plain and simply are fair complaints.   We play games for the fun of it and to get away from the politics of the world.  I don't think you will find many complaints when nothing is brought up in that regard in the 1st place and there appears to be very clear evidence that game content has been changed or looked at differently for some of these reasons.