176 réponses à ce sujet

[78stonewobble]

1. And technically it is, most of the industry caters to straight, bioware is the one trying to offer it to some people, like david gaider said "many of our customer are neither straight or male and they deserves no less attention"

 

2. That's their choice, if somebody is not willing to pay just because he is not cattered to completely. But that is not a moral oligation from the company

 

3, Yes that's a commercial strategy but again not a moral obligation. Having a white straight male protagonist is the best way to sell more but it does not mean the company HAS to do it.

 

4. Lefthanded is not the same thing, Who would really be unable to relate to a lefthanded just because he is righthanded? Seriously. I never heard someone being unable to identify to someone because he does not write form the same hand has them. sure their might be psycho that really thinks its writing with the devil's hands, but did there is really a large threat or opression to left handed people in the world AT THIS MOMENT?

 

5.

 

6. Actually I am not saying transexual SHOULD be presented as much, I just said that if Bioware decides they will, nobody should complain just because they are not catered too. I just think anyone can ask for equality and that's it.

 

7.So every games, tv shows or movies should only have 5 to 10% of lgbt characters because that's the percentage they are in society and if someone decides to do more than this percentage, its not fair?. If its made in USA, black characters should only be 12,6%

 

Look, maybe I should say it differently,

 

8. if a transexual person say "we deserves as much attention in the media as any other alternative sexuality, we should have half of the representation as the cisgender", ok it could be entitlement because that is asking an industry to caters to them instead of others and it would interfere in the commercial obligation some company have. I get that

 

9. BUT, if a company among all the big ones from pop culture (tv show, video game, comic, movie) decides to cater to LGBT just as much as the straight, I don't think heterosexual people could come there and says that this particular piece of art needs to cater to them primarly just because they are more numerous and most of the industry already does it so that should do it as well.

 

1. No, again... the industry are responding to what a majority of what their target demographic wants. Have you ever complained to the bra industry about catering mostly to women? At any point in time? 

 

PS: And I wholeheartedly agree tho... with no less attention... I'm just saying... no more either... because that would be catering, playing favorites and discriminating. 

 

2. Yes, it is... If a product I used to buy stops suiting my wants and needs, then I'll stop using it.

 

3. Actually the responsibility to most stockholders would be to make as much money as you can. Depending on product and company, it can mean going mainstream or going niche or any combination thereof. The fact that most customers in either the gaming market overall or for particular segments of that market is white straight males, is completely irrelevant... Unless offcourse one is overly concerned with people's race, gender and sexuality and think that's a reason to discriminate (unless you are an 'ist). 

 

4. Well I'd say look at how many left handed protagonists in games vs. right handed?

 

In any case, my point is, that this... social justice... is beyond the purview of private enterprise, apart from laws regarding, who you cannot exclude from buying, hiring practices and what not...

 

Bra's being made and marketed for women is not perpetuating oppression of men and nor are games being made and marketed for men, straights or white people perpetuating oppression of women, gays or people of other skincolours. It is a case of ... not all products are made for me... 

 

If I don't like the sound of band X and I prefer band Y. Band X is not out to get me or oppress my finely honed musical tastes (theyre not really that impressive)... Subjective taste difference make for a variety of wants and needs and companies try to fill them. 

 

6. I completely agree that equality is necessary in society... In regards to laws that is... The private enterprise has no obligation to fullfill the wants and needs of any and all demographic, no matter how small. Eg. I want a 1000 dollar completely functional fullsize lamborghini ... and the fact that it doesn't exist is not oppression of poor people or discrimination against them, by lamborghini or the car industry as a whole. 

 

7. No, I'm saying companies can make whatever games they want... but, if people demand representation, with the argument of equality, then actual equality is the only fair way to go. If you don't actually want equality, but inequality in your own favour, then just say so... but then don't be surprised, if the other camp demand the same and want you out... 

 

8. And it's no better to say, my 1 transexual voice should carry the weight of 2 or more cis gendered people, because... reasons... 

 

9. A company is free to do that offcourse, but then the ones really being catered to (actually the only ones imho) are exactly the LGBT segment. Or in other words... special treatment... And from the lesbians and gays I know... they really wouldn't like special treatment. AFAIK they just want equality and around here they have it and have had it for a while. My uncle got married to another guy back in 89/90 (registered partners)? It was made illegal to discriminate based on sexuality in 1987. 

[SnakeCode]

On point 4, someone who couldn't relate to someone who uses their other hand to write would be ridiculous, but that's exactly the point. Not being able relate to someone who has a different skin colour, or bit of kit between their legs is JUST AS ridiculous. It's all well and good saying "yeah but you don't face oppression or share their life experiences" but it's just wrong, because skin colour/gender don't determine those things. A homeless white guy is going to have more in common  with a homeless black guy than a black millionaire would.

 

Besides, even if you aren't "oppressed" or you don't have much in common with a person, there is still empathy. Empathy, or putting yourself in someone else's shoes is still a thing, and it transcends race, gender, sexual identity and all that good stuff.

 

What i'm getting at is if you're one of those people that say things like "I need an X character like me because I can't identify with Y people", then you lack empathy, or severely misunderstand the concept of it.

[Dalinne]

On point 4, someone who couldn't relate to someone who uses their other hand to write would be ridiculous, but that's exactly the point. Not being able relate to someone who has a different skin colour, or bit of kit between their legs is JUST AS ridiculous. It's all well and good saying "yeah but you don't face oppression or share their life experiences" but it's just wrong, because skin colour/gender don't determine those things. A homeless white guy is going to have more in common  with a homeless black guy than a black millionaire would.

 

Besides, even if you aren't "oppressed" or you don't have much in common with a person, there is still empathy. Empathy, or putting yourself in someone else's shoes is still a thing, and it transcends race, gender, sexual identity and all that good stuff.

 

What i'm getting at is if you're one of those people that say things like "I need an X character like me because I can't identify with X people", then you lack empathy, or severely misunderstand the concept of it.

 You have a point with empathy, but at the same time I think you forget in life there are a different grades of oppresion a person can suffer. A homeless white guy can suffer oppresion by classism. If he is white but an inmigrant, he can suffer xenophobia. If he is black, he will suffer racism too (because even when a white and a black person are both homeless, if you shaved the white guy and put him in a clean hoodie, walking in the streets, he would be likely safer than a black man in a hoodie). If he is a she, I mean if this hippotetical homeless woman, she could suffer rape. If she is black she had it worse. If she is trans and she is homeless, she's in danger of rape and murder. 

 

All this people have something in common: they suffer. It's not about who suffer more than the others. It's about to keep in mind even when I suffer one kind of oppresion doesn't mean others don't suffer the same oppresion as you do PLUS more types of oppresion. That doesn't  mean you have to shut up. No. It means we have to stick together and help others in worse situation than ours and being helped by others in best situation than ours.

 

I think is not your case. I really like your point on empathy you make. At the same time, it is very usual in this type of media where  some people assume relate to a heterosexual white male is easier than an lesbian black trans woman. Of course it is easier! Do you know why? Because we usually see that type of character ON EVERYTHING: tv, games, books, cinema... That doesn't mean a heterosexual white male is a bad character or I don't want this type of guy as a protagonist anymore. My only wish it's having more variety! In order to have more abilities to empathize with people different to me. 

[MyDamnAlterEgo]

Never heard anybody call male Shepard MalShep.  It's always Shep or FemShep. 

 

The TS did it ....

[ZipZap2000]

Didi dee da doo da doe doo.

Dee da doo doo dooo.

Di dididi didi di.

Didi didi didi doo doo doooo.



*Narrows eyes*



I loved that chipmunk.

*ashes*

He had his own website, it was better than rickrolling. Just a picture of a chipmunk and that song.

*ashes*

And the picture would move forwards and back like it was dancing. The picture obviously not the Chipmunk. Chipmunks cant dance.

*ashes*

But that song.....

I loved that song. I wanted it turned into a song before it was a song.

And then some guy made it into a song.

*ashes*

But they changed it from a chipmunk to a hamster. I little part of me died that day. The rest stabbed itself in the face with a fork when my mum came home and said "They made your stupid chipmunk into a song, I hope you're happy now."

Yeah, well not anymore lady, alright.

*ashes*

Should have spat in her diet milk that night, but she'll get what's coming to her soon enough.


Oblivion is the fate of all things woman.

*Sips Ryncol*




EDIT


I have no idea what's goin on this thread anymore, I just wanted to say that out loud so that someone else could hear it.

Its pointless saying it to myself obviously, I already know that.

[ArabianIGoggles]

The TS did it ....

Who is TS?

[CrimsonN7]

It looks like I picked the wrong day to quit sniffing glue.

[aoibhealfae]

 

^ Raphael Sbarge and Kimberly Brooks (Kaidan and Ashley voices) recorded a voice-version of the email post Horizon for fans. Mark Meer has already participated in the video "Hidden History MASS EFFECT ft. Commander Shepard" by ShoddyCast (I don't know if they paid him).

 

In general  I think ME voice-actors are pretty cool and lovely with fans. Of course you can't assume Mark Meer is gonna do something for free just because you demand it (assuming direct control!!!) but I'm sure if you tell him about it and he is not contractually obligated not to do so, maybe he would voice the N7 trailer.

 

 

 

Considering Andromeda is coming by early 2017, there are chances that they would invite Mark Meer back as well for their N7 thing. But it would be up to him to entertain his ME fans .

 

Unlike Meer, even with some cameo in DAI, Jennifer Hale is still with Bioware and contracted to play FemTrooper and Satele Shan for SWTOR. It made more sense for the Edmonton folks to reach out for her easily. 

 

 

WOW relax, calm down, If I did something that offended you, it was not my intention. Sorry

 

l agree that it was bad that femshep was neglected, I am not denying this, like I said, the trailer I showed you was a small compensation (if it was any but its not I'll give you that).

 

But don't tell me no femshep fans ever asked for a trailer because one was made specifically for you (and that one was cgi which means it cost a lot like you said) and there was a contest to get female sheppard on the cover. And I highly doubts that there was really no asking for that from the fans.

 

And like I told before, that was a VICTORY, it was something to be proud off that there was a femshep trailer, and I am more than happy than there is. And if it was there due ot the push back of the femshep fans, the push back was more than justified.

 

Its like I told sardakaurelite which you can read a few message back : "But don't you think the femshep fan won something when bioware did that? I mean we got a new trailer with a Iconic character! I think in some ways its a victory that should be congratulated."

 

But you have a point, Even if I did mention at the beginning the arguments between the two sides, I should have mention the lack of attention femshep had in the marketing before (so an other point for you). And let me tell you I think she deserves just as much attention as maleshep.

 

But come on, don't tell me you don't see a final goodbye in that teaser, its clearly a "passing torch to the new generation" the last time we hear sheppard, so yeah that teaser is the final goodbye.

 

And plz telling me I should ask mark meer to do it on tweeter... yeah because its the job of meer to code on final cut pro, record his voice for free, and basically do the job of bioware. 

 

I am sorry for not having mention enough that femshep was neglected, you are right about that since it was important to this topic, but plz think about what you just said...

 

(Oh and I could return again and again in my first post that this N7 day trailer is special compare to any other teaser (I don't know how many times I will have to repeat that)).

 

I get that you're still dissatisfied but does it ever occur to you that Mark Meer isn't interested enough to go all the way to LA to record a few minutes lines? He's not obliged to satisfy everyone and it was still up to him to decide whether it was worth his time.

 

Honestly, I'm not even sure what you're ranting about. Are you just mad at FemShep fans in general? Or just mad at Jennifer Hale?

[serviteur de femto]

1. No, again... the industry are responding to what a majority of what their target demographic wants. Have you ever complained to the bra industry about catering mostly to women? At any point in time? 

 

PS: And I wholeheartedly agree tho... with no less attention... I'm just saying... no more either... because that would be catering, playing favorites and discriminating. 

 

2. Yes, it is... If a product I used to buy stops suiting my wants and needs, then I'll stop using it.

 

3. Actually the responsibility to most stockholders would be to make as much money as you can. Depending on product and company, it can mean going mainstream or going niche or any combination thereof. The fact that most customers in either the gaming market overall or for particular segments of that market is white straight males, is completely irrelevant... Unless offcourse one is overly concerned with people's race, gender and sexuality and think that's a reason to discriminate (unless you are an 'ist). 

 

4. Well I'd say look at how many left handed protagonists in games vs. right handed?

 

In any case, my point is, that this... social justice... is beyond the purview of private enterprise, apart from laws regarding, who you cannot exclude from buying, hiring practices and what not...

 

Bra's being made and marketed for women is not perpetuating oppression of men and nor are games being made and marketed for men, straights or white people perpetuating oppression of women, gays or people of other skincolours. It is a case of ... not all products are made for me... 

 

If I don't like the sound of band X and I prefer band Y. Band X is not out to get me or oppress my finely honed musical tastes (theyre not really that impressive)... Subjective taste difference make for a variety of wants and needs and companies try to fill them. 

 

6. I completely agree that equality is necessary in society... In regards to laws that is... The private enterprise has no obligation to fullfill the wants and needs of any and all demographic, no matter how small. Eg. I want a 1000 dollar completely functional fullsize lamborghini ... and the fact that it doesn't exist is not oppression of poor people or discrimination against them, by lamborghini or the car industry as a whole. 

 

7. No, I'm saying companies can make whatever games they want... but, if people demand representation, with the argument of equality, then actual equality is the only fair way to go. If you don't actually want equality, but inequality in your own favour, then just say so... but then don't be surprised, if the other camp demand the same and want you out... 

 

8. And it's no better to say, my 1 transexual voice should carry the weight of 2 or more cis gendered people, because... reasons... 

 

9. A company is free to do that offcourse, but then the ones really being catered to (actually the only ones imho) are exactly the LGBT segment. Or in other words... special treatment... And from the lesbians and gays I know... they really wouldn't like special treatment. AFAIK they just want equality and around here they have it and have had it for a while. My uncle got married to another guy back in 89/90 (registered partners)? It was made illegal to discriminate based on sexuality in 1987. 

 

1. You cannot compare the bra industry because that is a PHYSICAL needs for woman, it cannot be compared to the game industry were both man and woman are interested. The percentage of man who would need a bra because they are too fat is minimal (and if they are that fat, needing to wear a bra should be the least of their problem).

 

And can you prove most of the industry is male? Don't get me wrong, from What I know its probably a majority but I cannot prove that with anything and I am certainly not saying my personal experience means absolute knowledge (we will keep that in mind for your point 9)

 

2. Then stop if you want, nobody is forcing you, because if your definition of "suiting your needs" means "I need to be cattered more than anyone else" that's asking an industry to always cater to you because you are among the majority who can always ask this and hide beyond the fact that you are part of the majority. 

 

3. Sure, I just meant that it was just a commercial strategy, it was a  way for them to make more money but not that they HAD to do it.

 

4. Yeah but if you feel excluded just because someone does not write with the same hand with whom you write? I mean come on. And you are talking about COMMERCIAL STRATEGY, sure Bioware would probably make more money if they made the best experience for the white straight male. Commercially it would probably be more sucessfull than openning it to everybody, it has anything to do with moral.

 

6. Sure a company has no obligation to cater to all demographic, if a company don't want to cater LGBT that's their choice but if a company decides to do it, that's their choice too and it needs to be respected. If it does not suit the needs of someone who is heterosexual because they need 90% of the attention in any game, well that is their PROBLEM and ONLY THEIRS.

 

When you are talking about stockholders company, money, yeah that's the buisness of Bioware. They are free to make less money to cater to a niche audience even with big budget games. Catering to the majority is not a moral obligation. And if that's a problem for you because it does not suit your needs, you are free to not buy it. But there is nothing morally wrong about doing that.

 

7. Actually I never heard LGBT were asking as much as representation, it was the decision of Bioware to give them this much attention, keep that in mind. And I still don't see why it should be criticized.

 

9. Special treatment? When you look at any bioware games, homosexual just had equal treament at best with the straight. Name me one bioware game where they had more cattering than the straight, please tell me ? And plz don't judge the lgbt community on the only person you know. Because when I follow your logic, I might have the impression that you are saying the industry can only includes 10% of lgbt character in any story because otherwise is giving special treatment... Especially with an industry that mostly ignore

 

 

Bioware made the choice to caters to a smaller demographic, it was the choice of Bioware to also caters to them, not the lgbt push back. DON'T FORGET THAT.

[serviteur de femto]

I get that you're still dissatisfied but does it ever occur to you that Mark Meer isn't interested enough to go all the way to LA to record a few minutes lines? He's not obliged to satisfy everyone and it was still up to him to decide whether it was worth his time.

 

Honestly, I'm not even sure what you're ranting about. Are you just mad at FemShep fans in general? Or just mad at Jennifer Hale?

 

Maybe I missed something, but why would he need to record all of this in LA? bioware could just called him and told him to record that in Edmonton (where last time I have seen, he lives there and so is the main studio of bioware), and there they can send the recording to the studio in LA or whatever place it needs to go, looks much more efficient and more convenient. 

 

And I am no way against jennifer hale, since I think it is a victory for female character in video game that she got her own CGI trailer for ME 3 (well that is femshep but that is besides the point). I LOVE her acting skills she has proven her competence many times.

 

And I will never generalise femshep fans, idiots have no gender, no skin color, age or whatever. Some of my friends are fmeshep fans and they are a awesome.

 

Actually I am just a bit annoyed when I saw a male  saying he deserves more attention because males always had the advantage in the game industry and therefore, every game should catter more to them. therefore asking the industry to Ignore or neglect any other demographics in favor of them. LIke this guy : http://forum.bioware...-gamer/#6610234

 

(to be honest, that guy who wrote that thread, he don't just annoy me He ****** ME OFF, but that is besides the point)

 

And I am just as annoyed when anyone talks about "male tears" or any of that bullshit term, thinking that because an industry was unfair to them should justify being unfair to an other group. And any try at discussion of the issue is crying. I think there is an old saying that said "you don't replace an injustice with an other injustice". While I don't think the absence of maleshep is an injustice, I just think anyone has the right to vocalize their dissapointment that Meer could not tell them goodbye the same way jennifer hale did. Without anyone telling them that they need to stop crying because of a little dissapointment.

 

For some of them, apparantly saying : "It's a shame we cannot hear mark meer telling goodbye and passing the torch" means they are crying... , any mention of that means crying, its na insultingly way to refuse the discussion because sometime someone mentioned a detail...

 

Like I said there have been bad people on both sides and I am no way telling that every fan of maleshep is a misgonistick macho and every femshep fans are misandrist. Just adressing some comments I have seen. If somebody don't care about the gender of sheppard narrating the n7 teaser that is fine too, I would just like if some  can understand why some people can be a BIT dissapointed which does not mean they are crying or that it ruins the excitmeent they have for the next game.

 

My first post is not ranting, its more of an analysis of the situation that was the release of the teaser when it came out at first. I am not that angry over the absence of maleshep, I just hoped I could translate the anger of SOME of the maleshep fans and  the mockery of SOME of the femshep fans in that thread. Trying to push for a discussion rather than an insult match.

 

I just tried to put that in an understandable text, put in front the important points. Telling what was a legit criticsm and what was not.

[AlanC9]

I guess everybody's misreading your intent here because nobody can really believe that this topic is worth spending all this effort on unless you're really, really offended by only having the FemShep trailer.

[serviteur de femto]

I guess everybody's misreading your intent here because nobody can really believe that this topic is worth spending all this effort on unless you're really, really offended by only having the FemShep trailer.

 

 

I admit, i am the kind of person who loves to over analyse many things, many things that people don't give much attention.

 

I am the kind of person who can make a Imdb research to know who was the person who played during 5 seconds in an episode of hero and their characters were killed by Sylar just after he took the power from the lady who had the ability of knowing when people lied to her.

 

And yes, that's really happen I actually did that years ago and that is just one of the many story. many times I focuses on details that some people don't give a **** about. 

[ZipZap2000]

It looks like I picked the wrong day to quit sniffing glue.

Weak!

[General TSAR]

Maybe I'm just being naive, but I really don't think many people were upset it was voiced by Jennifer Hale. And the few that were are idiots who deserve to be ignored.

Definitely.

 

Sure she's not my canon Shep, but when it comes to monologues and general voice acting, she easily blows Meer out of the water.

 

Hale just has that sharp silky voice that's perfect for space operas.

[Ascari]

is this a mass effect thread or a politics thread

[General TSAR]

is this a mass effect thread or a politics thread

A little from column A and a little from column B.

 

This is what happens when the developers don't drop updates, the fans eat each other.

[ZipZap2000]

A little from column A and a little from column B.

This is what happens when the developers don't drop updates, the fans eat each other.

I agree.

This thread is definitely BioWare's fault and EA probably shares some of the responsibility too.

[slimgrin]

Are the devs making these threads in their off hours or something? 

[serviteur de femto]

Are the devs making these threads in their off hours or something? 

 

Oh I would love if I was working at bioware, it would have been a dream come true... but it's not the case

[KaiserShep]

Are the devs making these threads in their off hours or something? 

 

 

Meanwhile, at BioWare HQ:

 

[Fixers0]

This crud again?

[78stonewobble]

1. You cannot compare the bra industry because that is a PHYSICAL needs for woman, it cannot be compared to the game industry were both man and woman are interested. The percentage of man who would need a bra because they are too fat is minimal (and if they are that fat, needing to wear a bra should be the least of their problem).

 

And can you prove most of the industry is male? Don't get me wrong, from What I know its probably a majority but I cannot prove that with anything and I am certainly not saying my personal experience means absolute knowledge (we will keep that in mind for your point 9)

 

2. Then stop if you want, nobody is forcing you, because if your definition of "suiting your needs" means "I need to be cattered more than anyone else" that's asking an industry to always cater to you because you are among the majority who can always ask this and hide beyond the fact that you are part of the majority. 

 

3. Sure, I just meant that it was just a commercial strategy, it was a  way for them to make more money but not that they HAD to do it.

 

4. Yeah but if you feel excluded just because someone does not write with the same hand with whom you write? I mean come on. And you are talking about COMMERCIAL STRATEGY, sure Bioware would probably make more money if they made the best experience for the white straight male. Commercially it would probably be more sucessfull than openning it to everybody, it has anything to do with moral.

 

6. Sure a company has no obligation to cater to all demographic, if a company don't want to cater LGBT that's their choice but if a company decides to do it, that's their choice too and it needs to be respected. If it does not suit the needs of someone who is heterosexual because they need 90% of the attention in any game, well that is their PROBLEM and ONLY THEIRS.

 

When you are talking about stockholders company, money, yeah that's the buisness of Bioware. They are free to make less money to cater to a niche audience even with big budget games. Catering to the majority is not a moral obligation. And if that's a problem for you because it does not suit your needs, you are free to not buy it. But there is nothing morally wrong about doing that.

 

7. Actually I never heard LGBT were asking as much as representation, it was the decision of Bioware to give them this much attention, keep that in mind. And I still don't see why it should be criticized.

 

9. Special treatment? When you look at any bioware games, homosexual just had equal treament at best with the straight. Name me one bioware game where they had more cattering than the straight, please tell me ?

 

10. And plz don't judge the lgbt community on the only person you know. Because when I follow your logic, I might have the impression that you are saying the industry can only includes 10% of lgbt character in any story because otherwise is giving special treatment... Especially with an industry that mostly ignore

 

 

Bioware made the choice to caters to a smaller demographic, it was the choice of Bioware to also caters to them, not the lgbt push back. DON'T FORGET THAT.

 

1. There is no difference... The same needs and wants are what the markets naturally respond to. Bra's and games reflect basic demopgrahics and you are saying this is wrong and thus you must have a beef with bra advertisements for women and being designed for women. We have a saying around here: "Standards are good, double standards are better" Ironically offcourse... 

 

I don't need to prove the industry is male or female dominated... People saying it's wrong, will have to and again, please for once acknowledge that the gaming industry is huge and varied and makes games for any number of segments / different demographics. 

 

2. Again... I think you're misunderstanding... I'm not the one demanding anything. You are arguing for special treatment / demanding it.

 

The analogy would be me wanting that 50 percent of all bra adverts and bra development were aimed at men as opposed to not being base around demographics. 

 

3. No, making money is pretty important for businesses and again that does not necessarily entail marketing yourself to the majority, but it does seem a reasonable proposition to do. It's not non profit. 

 

4. I dont know, do you feel excluded just because it's a straight white male in a game? I mean come on... There is no difference really apart from how much value the individual attaches to some, supposedly irrelevant characteristic. 

 

And bioware would not necessarily make the same amount of money or more. The competition is fierce... Finding a niche is good. But you technically just admitted that the gaming industry does not cater to straight white males, they are responding to demographics with, apparently, good commercial strategy. 

 

6. I agree with it in principle... But I'd like to point out, that if it's important to be recognized for your gender, sexuality, handedness and skincolour (certainly for immersion purposes I agree), then it's equally important for all and thus it's a valid point to want the ... "attention" for all. Which brings us back to... the only way to be fair is demographics... And wanting more than your fair share is morally wrong, imho. 

 

7. I'm not criticizing bioware. I'm criticizing people making the argument that X people deserve representation, not for subjective immersion purposes (which I think most can understand), but for some kind of "it needs to look good in a graph" representation and in which case the only fair way to go about that is to do it according to demographics... Unless these people are exactly the ones that need catering to... 

 

I dislike double standards, the inability to selfcritique and people who feel they are worth more than others based on skincolour, gender, handedness and sexuality, which people must apparently do, if they want a disproportional to the demographics representation. 

 

9. If the request/desire/want is representation, then having as much representation as straights and ignoring demopgraphics in a game is special treatment and being catered to. 

 

10. Then you are misunderstanding me... Again, I am not criticizing the industry or bioware, who I allready stated are free to do as they damn well please (apart from selling to straight white males apparently).

 

I am... apparently, criticizing those parts of the LGBT community and others... Who apparently think, that because of their gender, skincolour, handedness or sexuality, they are worth more than others of another gender, skincolour, handedness or sexuality in regards to representation in games. 

 

I just don't like the 'ism's involved in that and the sheer entitlement and I think it's an embarrassing step back. 

 

PS: And no, I don't judge the LGBT community and others as a whole on what some undefined proportion of bigots think. 

[Spacepunk01]

It looks like I picked the wrong day to quit sniffing glue.

 

...and Ruby reminds me of Jack.

 

This is what happens when the developers don't drop updates, the fans eat each other.

 

...and forums are horrible places for discussing political and social issues.

[GoldenGail3]

*stares blankly into space*

[serviteur de femto]

1. There is no difference... The same needs and wants are what the markets naturally respond to. Bra's and games reflect basic demopgrahics and you are saying this is wrong and thus you must have a beef with bra advertisements for women and being designed for women. We have a saying around here: "Standards are good, double standards are better" Ironically offcourse... 

 

I don't need to prove the industry is male or female dominated... People saying it's wrong, will have to and again, please for once acknowledge that the gaming industry is huge and varied and makes games for any number of segments / different demographics. 

 

2. Again... I think you're misunderstanding... I'm not the one demanding anything. You are arguing for special treatment / demanding it.

 

The analogy would be me wanting that 50 percent of all bra adverts and bra development were aimed at men as opposed to not being base around demographics. 

 

3. No, making money is pretty important for businesses and again that does not necessarily entail marketing yourself to the majority, but it does seem a reasonable proposition to do. It's not non profit. 

 

4. I dont know, do you feel excluded just because it's a straight white male in a game? I mean come on... There is no difference really apart from how much value the individual attaches to some, supposedly irrelevant characteristic. 

 

And bioware would not necessarily make the same amount of money or more. The competition is fierce... Finding a niche is good. But you technically just admitted that the gaming industry does not cater to straight white males, they are responding to demographics with, apparently, good commercial strategy. 

 

6. I agree with it in principle... But I'd like to point out, that if it's important to be recognized for your gender, sexuality, handedness and skincolour (certainly for immersion purposes I agree), then it's equally important for all and thus it's a valid point to want the ... "attention" for all. Which brings us back to... the only way to be fair is demographics... And wanting more than your fair share is morally wrong, imho. 

 

7. I'm not criticizing bioware. I'm criticizing people making the argument that X people deserve representation, not for subjective immersion purposes (which I think most can understand), but for some kind of "it needs to look good in a graph" representation and in which case the only fair way to go about that is to do it according to demographics... Unless these people are exactly the ones that need catering to... 

 

I dislike double standards, the inability to selfcritique and people who feel they are worth more than others based on skincolour, gender, handedness and sexuality, which people must apparently do, if they want a disproportional to the demographics representation. 

 

9. If the request/desire/want is representation, then having as much representation as straights and ignoring demopgraphics in a game is special treatment and being catered to. 

 

10. Then you are misunderstanding me... Again, I am not criticizing the industry or bioware, who I allready stated are free to do as they damn well please (apart from selling to straight white males apparently).

 

I am... apparently, criticizing those parts of the LGBT community and others... Who apparently think, that because of their gender, skincolour, handedness or sexuality, they are worth more than others of another gender, skincolour, handedness or sexuality in regards to representation in games. 

 

I just don't like the 'ism's involved in that and the sheer entitlement and I think it's an embarrassing step back. 

 

PS: And no, I don't judge the LGBT community and others as a whole on what some undefined proportion of bigots think. 

 

Look I am going to try to re explain that from the start, maybe it will be more understadable instead of answering points by points

 

I am aware that the industry mostly caters to the biggest demographics because most of the corporation wants to make more money. And there is no problem with that. But if a company decides to cater to a smaller demographic, nobody from the majority should say that this minority should only have a smaller attention from this particular company because every other coroporation give them more attention and this corporation should also do the same.

 

 

Let's be hypothetical, If I go live in Japan, I will be aware that there is not much caucasian living there and therefore, I am not going to find a lot of caucasian character in any media because my ethnic groups is not large there and the japanese industry wants to reach the larger demogrpahic, and my demographic there will be small. If I was asking for equal representation in every media as the japanese people despite being a member of a small community, that would not be right. I get that.

 

 

But in our game industry, where the majority of the marketing is targeted at a male audience, I don't think a male can say that the marketing of a particular corporation should target him in priority just because the rest of the industry already does it. I just think that arguments is flawed. He can say that he is a legitimate demographic and if he supported that company from the beginning, he can ask to at least have equal treatment but not more attention, especially when the rest of the industry already caters to him.

 

 

What I am telling you is that the arguments of "I had the advantage with every marketing campaign before, so every company needs to do it again for me and I deserve to be the priority because I am in the majority" its jut non functionnal, because most of the industry already caters to the straight male, Even If bioware decides to cater to niche audience it won't make a big difference in the overall industry. In fact if it decided to ONLY caters to the lgbt from the beginning it would still be small compare to most of the game industry.

 

 

And I will repeat it, Bioware decided from their own will to cater to the lgbt or female gamer, they were not forced at a gunpoint to do it. Most of The female or lgbt gamers never said, "we deserves more attention than the majority", I have never seen that except that from a few extremists that I adress in my first post (like the one who speak about "male tears")

 

 

MAYBE Bioware are making less money by doing that instead of trageting the biggest demographic, but that is their choice, its not a moral obligation from them to look for what is the biggest amount of money to make.

 

 

Like I told you before, a transgender saying he needs to have as much as attention from the marketing as the cisgender is wrong because he asks for an industry to change for him despite knowing he is in the minority and that many company would go bankrupt if they gave 50% of their marketing for transgender. But if a company decides to give attention to the transgender, it would not be right that cisgender ask that company to start catering to them just because all of the other company are doing it.

 

Look I know why most of the industry cater to the straight in most of the industry, its because of the demographic, I am aware of that and I am not saying the lgbt deserves 50% of the attention from the game industry. I am just saying that if a specific company decides to offer equal cattering to straight or lgbt, I am not going to complain that I should get most of the attention just because I am part of the majority that already got most of the attention.

 

I know I am repeating myself, but at this point, It looks like only going in circle.

 

Like I advise you before, maybe you should watch the jim sterling episode I put in the first thread, trust me it is way funnier and means a lot.