Questa discussione ha avuto 99 risposte

[congokong]

Arrival feels like the prologue, rather than the ME2 epilogue ironically, of the large elimination of role-playing prevalent throughout ME3.

 

I'm referring to how Shepard is so adamant, regardless of how potentially paragon they are, of killing 300,000 batarians just to slow the reapers down. Not only is this action very renegade, but I question if it's the no-brainer decision the game wants you to think it is. What's the point of slowing the reapers down if no one plans to do anything with those 6 months extra time? Shepard turns him/herself in to the Alliance to do nothing (again, potentially very out of character) while most of the galaxy is unaware of the reapers or denies they exist. Shepard just basically makes the reapers' job easier by wiping out a colony.

 

Of course, ME3 introduces a deus ex machina concept that couldn't be acquired without those 6 months, yet Shepard certainly wasn't aware of it at the time. All Shepard knew was that pretty much all the galaxy but Cerberus was doing nothing about the reapers. It just comes across as strange how paragon Shepards especially are so pro "wipe out of a colony."

[fraggle]

I don't feel it's so bad for a Paragon Shepard, because it's an act out of shear desperation I think. The Reapers are on the doorstep, so doing something to stop that from happening would be something even I'd do I don't think it's fair to refer to how it all plays out afterwards, because I'm fairly sure that's not how Shepard imagined it. I'd like to think they hoped someone would finally join the fight, help with preparations, see reason etc.

I think, at that exact point when Arrival plays out, it's reasonable for anyone to delay the Reapers and hope more time can rally more people... even if it's not really what happens in the end due to, uh, reasons.

[cap and gown]

I feel Arrival puts a constraint on your roleplaying possibilities. Knowing what Shepard has to do during the DLC, I think a roleplayer should consider whether the Shepard they are currently playing would actually go ahead and start the project. If the Shepard they are playing would not, then I think it best to skip the DLC and let Hackett take the blame for blowing up the relay.

[aoibhealfae]

does ME2 even allow RP-ing....?

[Monica21]

If the Reapers come in through that relay the 300,000 Batarians are going to die anyway. It's just a matter of whether Shepard does it and stops the Reapers from invading the rest of the galaxy, or if the Reapers do it and start the war right then.

[themikefest]

Whether or not the dlc is completed. Shepard is put under house arrest for 6 six months only to have the same clowns ask for his/her help to stop the reapers. There I go again. I keep forgetting that ME3 is the best place to start playing a trilogy.

 

My Shepard has no problem with destroying the system. If I had a colonist Shepard, she/he would be more than happy to wipeout the system since it was the Batarians that wiped out her/his family.

[DeathScepter]

well i have no problems with Shepard's action in Arrival. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, if a colony dies to stop the Reapers, I would do that among other actions to stop the Reapers. 

[Quarian Master Race]

No. Aratoht's a prison colony populated by slaves. The slaves they took would probably thank you for ending their collective miserable abuse filled existence, and the batarian prison guards/overseers, trappers and administrators responsible for enslaving them are universally scum for participating in such a grisly  profession. 

 

Plus, in retrospect it delays the Reapers long enough to come up with a means for defeating them, saving billions of lives. All around it's a win -win.

[congokong]

I don't feel it's so bad for a Paragon Shepard, because it's an act out of shear desperation I think. The Reapers are on the doorstep, so doing something to stop that from happening would be something even I'd do I don't think it's fair to refer to how it all plays out afterwards, because I'm fairly sure that's not how Shepard imagined it. I'd like to think they hoped someone would finally join the fight, help with preparations, see reason etc.

I think, at that exact point when Arrival plays out, it's reasonable for anyone to delay the Reapers and hope more time can rally more people... even if it's not really what happens in the end due to, uh, reasons.

 

Aren't several of the renegade actions throughout the series "acts of shear desperation?" You could argue Shepard would without hesitation sacrifice the council to focus on Sovereign, keep the collector base, sabotage the genophage cure to get salarian aid... all because of the stakes. Yet the series lets you have a choice in those situations, but when it comes to killing 300,000 batarians, it's now auto-renegade? I have a hard time seeing super paragons being willing to wipe out a colony just to delay the inevitable. Actually, in ME3, Garrus specifically asks you if it's acceptable to rely on the ruthless calculus of sacrificing billions here to save billions there. There, the paragon response is to say that's not acceptable; contradictory to Arrival.

[Monica21]

I have a hard time seeing super paragons being willing to wipe out a colony just to delay the inevitable. Actually, in ME3, Garrus specifically asks you if it's acceptable to rely on the ruthless calculus of sacrificing billions here to save billions there. There, the paragon response is to say that's not acceptable; contradictory to Arrival.

But no seriously. Those colonists are dying no matter what you choose. Not destroying the relay is not a decision to be super paragon. It's just irresponsible. You're not talking about "ruthless calculus." The only decision you're making is how those Batarians are going to die, and if the rest of the galaxy is going to be invaded because Shepard suddenly turned into a massive *****.

[Natureguy85]

While you can discuss if an action was worthwhile later, you can't really challenge a decision with information that was unknown or at least could not have been known at the time. Shepard doesn't know anything more than the Reapers will be here now if he/she doesn't blow up this Relay. They don't know it will only buy a few months and they don't know that nobody will use that time to do anything. I suppose both are reasonable assumptions given prior events though.

[AlanC9]

I'd still take the six months over extermination right now. What's the downside? Losing Shepard's .... moral purity?

[KaiserShep]

Those batarians were as good as dead anyhow, so the only real difference it makes is whether or not the rest of the galaxy goes with them.

[Flaine1996]

Im actually more suprised  there wasnt entirely more heavy repercussions  for shepards actions for killing 300,00 batarians... Goes to show how much the galaxy cares for them <.<  But I do agree it was necessary at that time without metagaming afterall shep wouldnt know it didnt really affect anything later on :/ 

[Yomond]

The age old player v writer agency. maybe i want to RP a Shep who quits the Alliance after Eden Prime. Sees the vision figures we're all doomed anyway and just tours the galaxies ****** bars till they get turned into a husk. It be a different game.

 

ME2 is the worst of the "my character would never..." of the trilogy. what with the joining Cerberus and whatnot. Being the middle installment they need to keep it on rails a bit more or the third would just be unmanageable. It is what it is. Still had fun. 

[cap and gown]

Aren't several of the renegade actions throughout the series "acts of shear desperation?" You could argue Shepard would without hesitation sacrifice the council to focus on Sovereign, keep the collector base, sabotage the genophage cure to get salarian aid... all because of the stakes. Yet the series lets you have a choice in those situations, but when it comes to killing 300,000 batarians, it's now auto-renegade? I have a hard time seeing super paragons being willing to wipe out a colony just to delay the inevitable. Actually, in ME3, Garrus specifically asks you if it's acceptable to rely on the ruthless calculus of sacrificing billions here to save billions there. There, the paragon response is to say that's not acceptable; contradictory to Arrival.

 

You might be interested in watching the introduction to my current playthrough where I go into precisely this issue when discussing who my "canon" Shepard is and why she is that way.

[Natureguy85]

Aren't several of the renegade actions throughout the series "acts of shear desperation?" You could argue Shepard would without hesitation sacrifice the council to focus on Sovereign, keep the collector base, sabotage the genophage cure to get salarian aid... all because of the stakes. Yet the series lets you have a choice in those situations, but when it comes to killing 300,000 batarians, it's now auto-renegade? I have a hard time seeing super paragons being willing to wipe out a colony just to delay the inevitable. Actually, in ME3, Garrus specifically asks you if it's acceptable to rely on the ruthless calculus of sacrificing billions here to save billions there. There, the paragon response is to say that's not acceptable; contradictory to Arrival.

 

The difference is possibility versus certainty. If you save the Council, you might not have enough ships to stop Sovereign. If you sabotage the Genophage, you might lose Krogan support if they find out. (It's also a decision of which help is more important to you.) There's nothing Paragon about destroying the Collector base. The reason given is so stupid, I'm skipping it.

 

The difference with Arrival is if you don't destroy that Relay, the Reapers will be there and start the Harvest.

[Monica21]

You might be interested in watching the introduction to my current playthrough where I go into precisely this issue when discussing who my "canon" Shepard is and why she is that way.

So, I didn't get through all of it because it's past 3am here, but planning on the rest tomorrow. (Today? Whatever.)

1. Fantastic thinking rp-wise. It fits with a lot of my current thinking with my Earthborn/Ruthless FemShep. I hadn't thought of tying it to Arrival, but it makes a lot of sense. (And I didn't know you could let the timer run out.)

2. You have a nice voice. Hellllloooooooo. (I'm sorry. I'm really tired.)

[TheN7Penguin]

Shepard was a colonist in like every single playthrough, and she has a habit of shooting Batarians. She had no problem with destroying the system. But, realistically, the Batarians were dead anyway. Whether by Shepard's hand or the Reapers, they would have been dead.

[fraggle]

Aren't several of the renegade actions throughout the series "acts of shear desperation?" You could argue Shepard would without hesitation sacrifice the council to focus on Sovereign, keep the collector base, sabotage the genophage cure to get salarian aid... all because of the stakes. Yet the series lets you have a choice in those situations, but when it comes to killing 300,000 batarians, it's now auto-renegade? I have a hard time seeing super paragons being willing to wipe out a colony just to delay the inevitable. Actually, in ME3, Garrus specifically asks you if it's acceptable to rely on the ruthless calculus of sacrificing billions here to save billions there. There, the paragon response is to say that's not acceptable; contradictory to Arrival.

 

Well, many of the guys in here already have posted good arguments.

 

I can see the concern about that Paragon answer in ME3 and it's inconsistent, but it could just be an oversight. On the other hand if you take Javik to the Geth Dreadnought mission Shepard says there that it wasn't an easy decision to destroy the Alpha relay... I guess in this case, Shepard just didn't see any other way than to destroy it. Like others have said - what's the option? The batarians die now, or they die anyway when the Reapers invade.

 

Of course, the Paragon dialogue with Garrus is unfortunate, but it is what it is.

[Natureguy85]

 

Of course, the Paragon dialogue with Garrus is unfortunate, but it is what it is.

 

I don't remember the line. How was it delivered? It could be used to characterize Shepard with some guilt. His mind is cracking under all the stress after all.

[fraggle]

I don't remember the line. How was it delivered? It could be used to characterize Shepard with some guilt. His mind is cracking under all the stress after all.

 

Here's the scene in question:

https://youtu.be/vDF5wd2GpTE?t=133

 

I do think the Renegade answer suits much better to Arrival's actions, it says: "If all life in the galaxy vanishes because we hesitate, what choice do we have?"

[aoibhealfae]

I don't think the line with Garrus took DLCs in consideration. Honestly, I haven't been playing full Paragon for more than a year now because a lot of 'heroic' choices are self-sabotaging and kinda dumb once you think about it, especially the "I talk to you until you commit suicide" paragon path.... 

 

My canon are a Mindoir survivor but I value her empathy and conscience more. It wasn't easy for her to sacrifice an entire Batarian system especially with a colony consists of mostly slaves but she did what she have to. Then again, I reasoned that average person on Earth are ignorant about Collectors and the Reapers and blamed the terminus slavers and pirates for the colonists disappearance. When Shepard destroyed Aratoht, it was seen as a retribution against the Batarians (especially past aggressions and attacks on human colonies) and Shepard was celebrated as a hero regardless which is why Shepard get off easily.

 

The Colonist moral distinction was more significant with Bring Down the Sky DLC. But rather than blind prejudice, I let my canon choose to arrest Balak instead but you have to let the bomb go (leaving a horrifying aftermath of burned bodies). Besides, a big-time terrorist begged her to kill him so that he would be a martyr, she's not that stupid. Plus, Balak survived ME3 but he choose to help his people with the Batarian codes rather than kill Alliance. At least, something turns up right.

[congokong]

Just to be clear, I believe destroying that relay was the right call. I'm only doubting that paragon Shepards see it the way you and I do. These same Shepards lose salarian aid because denying the krogan a cure is too high a cost; even saying they'd never sabotage the cure no matter what was offered. They divert resources to save the council "no matter the cost" when that same attitude should be on the reaper trying to let in all the other reapers. They blow up the Collector base, and all its potential intel against the reapers, because they "won't let fear compromise who they are."

 

Well, why let the fear of the reapers compromise who they are with that batarian colony then? That defeatist "the reapers will just kill everyone here anyway so I'll destroy the relay" attitude seems very out of character for super paragons; especially when factoring in the potential ethical issues mentioned in the OP.

 

I agree with cap and gown. Rather than trying to rationalize how a paragon Shepard could so confidently kill 300,000 batarians, it's better to skip the DLC. I faced a similar problem with my canon aggressive Hawke in DA2 who I couldn't see doing Mark of the Assassin.

[aoibhealfae]

I think the DLC itself was hastily done and there were glaring oversight on some of the narratives. I can't understand why they can't connect it to the larger narrative surrounds the Leviathan of Dis.

 

The Batarians found reaper corpse and been studying reaper tech and was indoctrinated. Dr Kenson investigate reaper tech in Batarian system (as a followup to the Alliance black ops raid in which information leaks eventually results in the death of Kasumi's boyfriend) while Dr Bryson investigate what kills the reaper which lead to ME3 DLC. The Alliance already have ships scouting the Bahak system and if Shepard isn't involved, 103rd Marine Division was already on stand by. In fact, they could have Kaidan or Ashley as a temporary companion who showed up to save Shepard and you don't get Shepard magically wake up and becoming a one-person-army even after being drugged like an elephant who just being exposed by a reaper artifact with mind-frakking futuristic visions... 

 

Anyway, kinda wish there was the option where Shepard outright refused Hackett's quest and the DLC was timed like the Cerberus Bomb. Sigh... ME2.