Questa discussione ha avuto 99 risposte

[KaiserShep]

Like, a Precious Moments angel? Because Biblical angels were really mean.

 

 

The precious moments ones are the interns that the Real Angels take on for PR purposes. Gotta keep those flaming swords and body counts low-key. 

[Tonymac]

I tried to warn them, I really did!  They were dogmeat no matter what I chose, though.  I'd rather move the chess pieces and let the Reapers react than simply let them check-mate the galaxy.

[Jukaga]

does ME2 even allow RP-ing....?

 

Sort of. You have to squint one eye while balancing on a pole suspended over spikes and hungry otters but it can be done.

[Jukaga]

Im actually more suprised  there wasnt entirely more heavy repercussions  for shepards actions for killing 300,00 batarians... Goes to show how much the galaxy cares for them <.<  But I do agree it was necessary at that time without metagaming afterall shep wouldnt know it didnt really affect anything later on :/ 

 

Except there is no evidence Shepard did it, other than Hackett selling you out. Even though the Reapers are now physically in the Galaxy, the brass decides to throw Shepard in prison then ask 'so what's the plan?' when Arcturus goes dark.

[Natureguy85]

Except there is no evidence Shepard did it, other than Hackett selling you out. Even though the Reapers are now physically in the Galaxy, the brass decides to throw Shepard in prison then ask 'so what's the plan?' when Arcturus goes dark.

 

And if Shepard didn't do it, go to jail anyway. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, and do not ask questions.

[cap and gown]

I think it is pretty obvious that Hackett was behind the Project. Its not like Kenson had enough spare change in between the cushions in her couch at home to hire all these people to work for her and build this massive base on this asteroid. This was an Alliance black-op from beginning to end. But Hackett needs someone to take the fall so he can use the time to *cough* prepare for the Reapers.

[Natureguy85]

After the sh*t he pulled? Damn right he should be in jail.

 

 

My first run through ME3 was before I had Arrival for ME2, and I remember saying to myself  'like what Anderson? Destroying the collectors and saving lives?'

 

When playing male Shepard and Anderson pats Shepard's stomach, asking if he's soft after sitting around, I laugh. I didn't think of it at first, but now I can't help but think "you've been sitting behind a desk since ME1. But yeah, we've still got the same body model, just like we did in the other two games."

 

I noticed it back in ME1, and it's funny when even Joker has the same Heroic Build, but the best has to be the Steve Cortez romance scene where you see that they have the same mole. And IT goofballs thought it was significant when they used free cam to find characters in the pile of bodies. I could forgive the asset reuse in the first game, and even still with minor characters, but this looks terrible.

[KaiserShep]

After the sh*t he pulled? Damn right he should be in jail.

 

 

My first run through ME3 was before I had Arrival for ME2, and I remember saying to myself  'like what Anderson? Destroying the collectors and saving lives?'

 

 

He might be referring to the group of asari children that were crushed when a merc fell from Nassana's skyscraper. 

[simonrana]

Even on super paragon playthroughs I felt they did a good enough job of portraying the fact that Shepard didn't really have much choice in the matter.

Now releasing Jack on Purgatory was another matter...

[Reorte]

Even on super paragon playthroughs I felt they did a good enough job of portraying the fact that Shepard didn't really have much choice in the matter.

Now releasing Jack on Purgatory was another matter...

Agree with this. Saying a Paragon Shepard wouldn't is playing the type of Paragon Shepard who wouldn't pick up a gun and shoot someone who was attacking him (or attacking anyone else), and such a character obviously wouldn't even be there at the start of ME1. It's one thing to take perhaps a risky choice to do the moral thing but there's no risk here, it's a certainty.

[KaiserShep]

Even on super paragon playthroughs I felt they did a good enough job of portraying the fact that Shepard didn't really have much choice in the matter.

Now releasing Jack on Purgatory was another matter...

 

Yeah, of all the problems with Arrival's story, I didn't think this was one of them. The choices were literally do this now or everything dies. I do like that you can choose to stand around and wait for the countdown to finish and see what inaction gets you. 

[FlyingSquirrel]

Yeah, I skip Arrival with my canon Shepard. In addition to the moral issues, I found the whole scenario to be somewhat contrived and bass-ackwards, for a number of reasons:

 

1) If Kenson and at least some of the other Project staff are indoctrinated by the time she's arrested by the batarians, her most logical move would be to say absolutely nothing about the Reapers to her captors or to Shepard - the invasion is about to start and nobody except the project scientists knows it. I could *maybe* see her telling the batarians if she's worried that the rest of the Project staff will go ahead and crash the relay without her, in which case she'd want the batarians to stop it from happening. I have no idea why she doesn't do a better job of deceiving Shepard.

 

2) As far as Paragon concerns go, I don't think *anybody* deserves to be burned alive, and the cutscene is pretty blase about that happening to those two batarian guards even if Shepard and Kenson didn't do it on purpose.

 

3) I understand that the Alliance and the batarians aren't on great terms, but I think it's at least possible that the batarians might have listened if the Alliance had told them ahead of time what was about to happen and given them the chance to evacuate. Even as late as when Shepard first busts Kenson out of jail, there are still a couple of days left, but this option isn't even mentioned.

 

4) Kenson never should have let Shepard go anywhere near Object Rho (unless she was hoping to indoctrinate Shepard) and certainly should not have left Shepard unconscious on the base for two entire days. That base is literally the one location in the galaxy where someone could mess up the invasion plan, and they leave one of the most skilled soldiers in the galaxy there with nobody but a doctor and a few mechs to stand guard? Even leaving Shepard on a shuttle floating in space would have greatly decreased the chances of exactly what ends up happening (Shepard stopping the invasion).

 

5) Shepard gets interrupted when trying to warn the batarians, but why doesn't (s)he try again later? If nothing else, anyone else on a ship in that system would have had a chance to make a run for the relay like the Normandy did or try to outrun the blast with conventional FTL.

[capn233]

Not a huge fan of Arrival in total.

 

I don't have a problem with Shepard activating the project though.  He explains that well enough himself in the beginning of ME3.

 

Now as far as interesting dilemmas, it would be more of a quandary if there was a way to blow up the relay without actually destroying the system that required a different set of steps in the mission.  In both cases you would stop the Reapers from using the relay.  The difference would be whether or not Shepard is directly killing the inhabitants versus stranding them to be harvested.  The former may in fact be merciful relative to the latter.

[ChronosTachyon]

Yeah, I skip Arrival with my canon Shepard. In addition to the moral issues, I found the whole scenario to be somewhat contrived and bass-ackwards, for a number of reasons:

 

1) If Kenson and at least some of the other Project staff are indoctrinated by the time she's arrested by the batarians, her most logical move would be to say absolutely nothing about the Reapers to her captors or to Shepard - the invasion is about to start and nobody except the project scientists knows it. I could *maybe* see her telling the batarians if she's worried that the rest of the Project staff will go ahead and crash the relay without her, in which case she'd want the batarians to stop it from happening. I have no idea why she doesn't do a better job of deceiving Shepard.

 

2) As far as Paragon concerns go, I don't think *anybody* deserves to be burned alive, and the cutscene is pretty blase about that happening to those two batarian guards even if Shepard and Kenson didn't do it on purpose.

 

3) I understand that the Alliance and the batarians aren't on great terms, but I think it's at least possible that the batarians might have listened if the Alliance had told them ahead of time what was about to happen and given them the chance to evacuate. Even as late as when Shepard first busts Kenson out of jail, there are still a couple of days left, but this option isn't even mentioned.

 

4) Kenson never should have let Shepard go anywhere near Object Rho (unless she was hoping to indoctrinate Shepard) and certainly should not have left Shepard unconscious on the base for two entire days. That base is literally the one location in the galaxy where someone could mess up the invasion plan, and they leave one of the most skilled soldiers in the galaxy there with nobody but a doctor and a few mechs to stand guard? Even leaving Shepard on a shuttle floating in space would have greatly decreased the chances of exactly what ends up happening (Shepard stopping the invasion).

 

5) Shepard gets interrupted when trying to warn the batarians, but why doesn't (s)he try again later? If nothing else, anyone else on a ship in that system would have had a chance to make a run for the relay like the Normandy did or try to outrun the blast with conventional FTL.

 

All valid points, but I think Kenson was hoping to indoctrinate Shepard.  At the very least, that assumption makes some sense of her decisions.

 

It still doesn't explain why Kenson explains the entire Project to Shepard, or truthfully tells him that they're one button-press away from activating it...

 

Yeah, Arrival is a mess, no matter how much you twist it into a pretzel.

[congokong]

It still doesn't explain why Kenson explains the entire Project to Shepard, or truthfully tells him that they're one button-press away from activating it...

 

Yeah, Arrival is a mess, no matter how much you twist it into a pretzel.

Or how Shepard resisted the sedatives, woke up quickly enough to take out several armed guards, or didn't even have restraints.

[DMc1001]

Just to be clear, I believe destroying that relay was the right call. I'm only doubting that paragon Shepards see it the way you and I do. These same Shepards lose salarian aid because denying the krogan a cure is too high a cost; even saying they'd never sabotage the cure no matter what was offered. They divert resources to save the council "no matter the cost" when that same attitude should be on the reaper trying to let in all the other reapers. They blow up the Collector base, and all its potential intel against the reapers, because they "won't let fear compromise who they are."

 

Well, why let the fear of the reapers compromise who they are with that batarian colony then? That defeatist "the reapers will just kill everyone here anyway so I'll destroy the relay" attitude seems very out of character for super paragons; especially when factoring in the potential ethical issues mentioned in the OP.

 

I agree with cap and gown. Rather than trying to rationalize how a paragon Shepard could so confidently kill 300,000 batarians, it's better to skip the DLC. I faced a similar problem with my canon aggressive Hawke in DA2 who I couldn't see doing Mark of the Assassin.

I don't agree here.  The Krogan are a dying race.  Without a cure they will go extinct.  Whatever happened 1000 years ago, they don't deserve that fate.  Batarians won't go extinct with the destruction of one colony but they might survive as a species as a result of delaying the Reapers.  It's clearly a Paragon choice in both situations.  In both cases he's looking at the continuation of the species (same with Rachni).

[congokong]

I don't agree here.  The Krogan are a dying race.  Without a cure they will go extinct.  Whatever happened 1000 years ago, they don't deserve that fate.  Batarians won't go extinct with the destruction of one colony but they might survive as a species as a result of delaying the Reapers.  It's clearly a Paragon choice in both situations.  In both cases he's looking at the continuation of the species (same with Rachni).

Do not agree. You are making the common mistake of confusing paragon/renegade with right/wrong. And the genophage is a necessary evil, as the complete removal of it would be catastrophic for all other species ...and eventually the krogan as well. Destroying that relay is a necessary evil as well, an ends justify the means, which is what renegade is.

[Natureguy85]

Or how Shepard resisted the sedatives, woke up quickly enough to take out several armed guards, or didn't even have restraints.

 

That's easily explained by his cybernetics and the mental degradation of Indoctrination.

[congokong]

That's easily explained by his cybernetics and the mental degradation of Indoctrination.

That explains the lack of restraints too, or how they never considered that when sedating Shepard? I also wasn't under the impression being indoctrinated made you a crappy fighter.

[Xilizhra]

Shepard isn't ending anyone's lives significantly sooner than they would have been ended. The Reapers would kill everyone on the colony anyway. Additionally, Paragon Shepard tries to get the colony to evacuate, but is prevented from doing so (and it wouldn't have succeeded if the asteroid hadn't hit either, so that wouldn't be a factor).

 

 

Do not agree. You are making the common mistake of confusing paragon/renegade with right/wrong. And the genophage is a necessary evil, as the complete removal of it would be catastrophic for all other species ...and eventually the krogan as well. Destroying that relay is a necessary evil as well, an ends justify the means, which is what renegade is.

The krogan are still demilitarized. They have no means to take on the galaxy.

[congokong]

The krogan are still demilitarized. They have no means to take on the galaxy.

Then their fate would resemble the drells, only far worse.

[Xilizhra]

Then their fate would resemble the drells, only far worse.

I believe that's up to the krogan to decide.

[congokong]

I believe that's up to the krogan to decide.

That is some ideal you are defending: that they should have the right to destroy themselves or everyone else (if they get remilitarized).

[Xilizhra]

That is some ideal you are defending: that they should have the right to destroy themselves or everyone else (if they get remilitarized).

Well, the genophage is already slowly killing them; this way, they have a chance to choose life.

[R0bE0]

Oh yeah, a moral discussion! Shall I grab the popcorn?

 

In all honesty I am willing to defend Shepard's actions - even if the DLC in itself had some issues. Shepard would have been unaware that the Reapers would reappear in six months time, or that they would fail to yet again convince authority figures of their impending arrival.

 

Shepard knew it was either 300,000 Batarians right here and now, or still thousands Batarians and a sooner Reaper arrival. No it's definitely not right either way, but logically destroying the Relay was the much clearer option. No doubt Shepard probably found it hard to sleep at night (especially a Paragon Shepard), but I feel like they could at least acknowledge it as the better option.

 

The Batarians would have been obliterated, either by the Mass Relay's destruction, or by the Reapers. In all honesty, I did try and let the Batarians know (a choice that makes absolutely no difference I know). Though I didn't feel guilt in their deaths. I would rather be obliterated in moments than submit to indoctrination or death at the hands of the Reapers.

 

Also - throwing my own ten cents out there, I also agree with keeping the genophage. As congoking said it is very much so a necessary evil. The Salarians admit that their initial decision to turn to the Krogan was a bad one. They did not look at all the outcomes, nor did they acknowledge all the variables such an alliance could spring on them. They got burned for it - badly. I sympathize with the Krogan, I really do. And I'm sure that Wrex would make a good leader (in fact he does -or one would assume). But after him, what then? What if another Wreav comes along and reverts everything? The Krogan are bloodthirsty, that's a unfortunate fact. A lot of the Krogan were still traditionalists, and I'm sure some of them would take the opportunity of a baby boom to wage war if they had the chance. The genophage is unethical, cruel, but it prevents unwanted scenarios. This is a very unpopular opinion, but it is the logical one.