99 Antworten in diesem Thema

[MrFob]

I don't feel it's so bad for a Paragon Shepard, because it's an act out of shear desperation I think. The Reapers are on the doorstep, so doing something to stop that from happening would be something even I'd do I don't think it's fair to refer to how it all plays out afterwards, because I'm fairly sure that's not how Shepard imagined it. I'd like to think they hoped someone would finally join the fight, help with preparations, see reason etc.

I think, at that exact point when Arrival plays out, it's reasonable for anyone to delay the Reapers and hope more time can rally more people... even if it's not really what happens in the end due to, uh, reasons.

 

This is true, yet, I think it is precisely the lack of choice that takes away the moral ambiguity of the situation and ultimately hurts the story of Arrival a lot. Now we can simply say, that we understand why it had to happen but we are not really "responsible" (as players) because we had no say in it anyway.

 

Imagine a slightly different situation where the alpha relay was a normal relay that just linked to the next system and where - as Shepard - we had the choice to either ram the alpha relay ASAP, killing all the Batarians or to wait as long as possible, allowing for a partial evacuation of the colony but letting maybe 2-3 reapers reach other systems, causing havoc earlier.

You could even have that influence ME3 war assets drastically, with a much better result for choosing not to wait (yay, finally a choice to appease the renegade-always-gets-the-short-stick crowd).

 

In this scenario, the moral dilemma would rest on the player's shoulders, not just Shepard's. Personally, I think this would have been a much better way to go and it wouldn't have been too hard to implement the consequences either. But Arrival was kind of a weird offshoot within the ME story anyway, so it does fit in the picture that this didn't happen.

[congokong]

Well, the genophage is already slowly killing them; this way, they have a chance to choose life.

"The genophage infected us, but it's not what's killing us." - Wrex

 

It's the krogan's own behavior that is killing them. The genophage certainly isn't helping, but it's used as a scapegoat. I don't want to keep arguing the genophage so I'll post something another poster named Piratemouse said in response to whether to cure the genophage and end it there.

 

""

 

Hell no I wouldn't cure it, and in fact I'd go to the same extreme lengths I went to in order to stop the Reapers to prevent a cure, because it's a similarly galaxy-level threat.  I wouldn't even cure it if krogan culture changed, because honestly I don't care what your culture is like, 1,000 viable births per year times about 1,000 years per krogan female with each offspring living potentially around 1,000 years as well is a recipe for unqualified, unmitigated disaster the likes of which we cannot truly even properly comprehend.

At most, I would consider a reworking of the genophage, but that was never given in-game as an option.  Frankly, I would wipe out every single last krogan before I'd outright cure the genophage if for some reason those were my only two options ... because that would ultimately be a choice between genocide of one species (krogans) or genocide of all non-krogans.

From there, I'll just repost my response to this topic before, which began with my feelings about the Dalatrass:

The Dalatrass is not really a character in the game; she's just a poorly disguised strawman propped up by Bioware's writers to attempt to make an irrational position more sympathetic. The angry, dismissive attitude, the way she suggests the krogan are no longer "useful" ... she could have been wearing a black top hat and twirling a pencil-thin moustache, and it wouldn't have looked out of place.

She's a symptom of what the writers pull throughout that arc, using cheap emotional tricks to manipulate and pressure the player at every turn ... and small wonder. They faced an impossible task, to present an argument that outright curing the genophage would be a good idea in spite of everything we knew (or at least could know) by then about the krogans and their horrifyingly rapid default birthrate.

Logic and reason were against them, so they resorted to the one thing they had left: emotional appeal. And don't underestimate emotional appeal! Such a powerful thing it is, so insidious and seductive. Just reading these forums, you can quickly get a sense for how easily most people are roped into terrible decisions if you tug at their emotions in the right ways. It's an excellent illustration of why the kind of power to make such enormous decisions does not belong in the hands of most people ... not so much just because power corrupts but because emotional appeal easily tempts most people into using that power in terribly short-sighted ways.

My favorite part is when people say things like, "If Wrex is in charge, it'll be fine." "I trust Wrex." "Cure if Wrex is in charge, sabotage otherwise."

In reality, Wrex being in power (yes, even with Eve there too) is a red herring.

Think about it: ONE krogan is supposed to not only change the behavior of all krogan forever but also somehow change them so much that they're able to, as a total species, self-regulate their entire population ... forever? Even though no species, including our own, has ever been able to do this as a total species? It would be an utterly ridiculous notion even if the krogan were a peaceful and enlightened species! Animals simply don't manage their reproduction in this way -- not even the sapient ones like humans.

It's moot, of course. Wrex loses power about five minutes after the war with the Reapers is won.

Or weren't you paying attention? His power base was built around control of access to fertile females. That evaporated the moment you cured the genophage, and once they no longer have a big bad enemy to fight to keep their attention, the other krogan are going to realize this. Since Wrex's ideas were hardly popular, most of them will probably abandon him overnight. Even though some may choose to remain loyal, the real force behind his unification and reformation effort is gone -- it no longer has teeth. And his relatively peaceful krogan will most likely be quickly wiped out by another more aggressive "traditional" clan.

Basically, Wrex has always been doomed. He dies on Virmire if you can't talk him down (and this is actually the best possible outcome since it makes it possible to talk Mordin down later), he dies on the Citadel if you sabotage the genophage cure, and he most likely dies later amidst the shattered remnants of his no-longer-relevant clan if you cure the genophage. Viewed from that perspective, his death can be seen as an unfortunate but inevitable consequence of his blind obsession.

I sabotaged the cure ... not because the Dalatrass was convincing but because it's simply the right thing to do. I was there to protect the galaxy, not doom it.

 

""

[Xilizhra]

"The genophage infected us, but it's not what's killing us." - Wrex

 

It's the krogan's own behavior that is killing them. The genophage certainly isn't helping, but it's used as a scapegoat. I don't want to keep arguing the genophage so I'll post something another poster named Piratemouse said in response to whether to cure the genophage and end it there.

 

""

 

Hell no I wouldn't cure it, and in fact I'd go to the same extreme lengths I went to in order to stop the Reapers to prevent a cure, because it's a similarly galaxy-level threat.  I wouldn't even cure it if krogan culture changed, because honestly I don't care what your culture is like, 1,000 viable births per year times about 1,000 years per krogan female with each offspring living potentially around 1,000 years as well is a recipe for unqualified, unmitigated disaster the likes of which we cannot truly even properly comprehend.

At most, I would consider a reworking of the genophage, but that was never given in-game as an option.  Frankly, I would wipe out every single last krogan before I'd outright cure the genophage if for some reason those were my only two options ... because that would ultimately be a choice between genocide of one species (krogans) or genocide of all non-krogans.

From there, I'll just repost my response to this topic before, which began with my feelings about the Dalatrass:

The Dalatrass is not really a character in the game; she's just a poorly disguised strawman propped up by Bioware's writers to attempt to make an irrational position more sympathetic. The angry, dismissive attitude, the way she suggests the krogan are no longer "useful" ... she could have been wearing a black top hat and twirling a pencil-thin moustache, and it wouldn't have looked out of place.

She's a symptom of what the writers pull throughout that arc, using cheap emotional tricks to manipulate and pressure the player at every turn ... and small wonder. They faced an impossible task, to present an argument that outright curing the genophage would be a good idea in spite of everything we knew (or at least could know) by then about the krogans and their horrifyingly rapid default birthrate.

Logic and reason were against them, so they resorted to the one thing they had left: emotional appeal. And don't underestimate emotional appeal! Such a powerful thing it is, so insidious and seductive. Just reading these forums, you can quickly get a sense for how easily most people are roped into terrible decisions if you tug at their emotions in the right ways. It's an excellent illustration of why the kind of power to make such enormous decisions does not belong in the hands of most people ... not so much just because power corrupts but because emotional appeal easily tempts most people into using that power in terribly short-sighted ways.

My favorite part is when people say things like, "If Wrex is in charge, it'll be fine." "I trust Wrex." "Cure if Wrex is in charge, sabotage otherwise."

In reality, Wrex being in power (yes, even with Eve there too) is a red herring.

Think about it: ONE krogan is supposed to not only change the behavior of all krogan forever but also somehow change them so much that they're able to, as a total species, self-regulate their entire population ... forever? Even though no species, including our own, has ever been able to do this as a total species? It would be an utterly ridiculous notion even if the krogan were a peaceful and enlightened species! Animals simply don't manage their reproduction in this way -- not even the sapient ones like humans.

It's moot, of course. Wrex loses power about five minutes after the war with the Reapers is won.

Or weren't you paying attention? His power base was built around control of access to fertile females. That evaporated the moment you cured the genophage, and once they no longer have a big bad enemy to fight to keep their attention, the other krogan are going to realize this. Since Wrex's ideas were hardly popular, most of them will probably abandon him overnight. Even though some may choose to remain loyal, the real force behind his unification and reformation effort is gone -- it no longer has teeth. And his relatively peaceful krogan will most likely be quickly wiped out by another more aggressive "traditional" clan.

Basically, Wrex has always been doomed. He dies on Virmire if you can't talk him down (and this is actually the best possible outcome since it makes it possible to talk Mordin down later), he dies on the Citadel if you sabotage the genophage cure, and he most likely dies later amidst the shattered remnants of his no-longer-relevant clan if you cure the genophage. Viewed from that perspective, his death can be seen as an unfortunate but inevitable consequence of his blind obsession.

I sabotaged the cure ... not because the Dalatrass was convincing but because it's simply the right thing to do. I was there to protect the galaxy, not doom it.

 

""

Well, for one thing, the krogan aren't a galactic-level threat without ships. For another thing, my Control ending adds some extra security.

[Natureguy85]

The interesting thing about the Genophage is that it's real victim is the Krogans' spirit. That's what Wrex is talking about in ME1. The Genophage makes things seem hopeless and the Krogan have pretty much given up on their race.

[voteDC]

The only problem I have with Arrival is that Shepard has to go solo? 

I've got a team of the best people in the galaxy and I can't take any of them with me (yet Hackett will send an entire squad if Shepard doesn't do the mission).

You would have thought that Thane at the very least would have been suitable for a sneak in, sneak out, mission. Why not take Mordin to verify the data, and as a Salarian he's pretty good at sneaking about too.

It could even have been made into a mini suicide mission like choice system. Pick the wrong person to come with you and they could end up making the mission harder for you, perhaps even dying. Imagine surviving beyond the Omega 4 relay only to then die later on.

I have the horrible suspicion that Arrival was intended to be a test on how people would feel about a solo shooter entry in the franchise.

 

You might be interested in watching the introduction to my current playthrough where I go into precisely this issue when discussing who my "canon" Shepard is and why she is that way.

I don't think you should be afraid to speak over the dialogue sections. Remember that Mass Effect came out in 2007 and people who are interested in a Let's Play of a game that old have likely already played through it more than once themselves.

 

Add some colour commentary over the dialogue sections. Personally speaking I'd be more interested in your thoughts on the conversations than hearing them again while watching someone else make the choices.

[Jukaga]

The only problem I have with Arrival is that Shepard has to go solo? 

I've got a team of the best people in the galaxy and I can't take any of them with me (yet Hackett will send an entire squad if Shepard doesn't do the mission).

You would have thought that Thane at the very least would have been suitable for a sneak in, sneak out, mission. Why not take Mordin to verify the data, and as a Salarian he's pretty good at sneaking about too.

 

I actually like the solo element to Arrival. It shows how badass Shepard really is as the panicked project guards try to slow you down only for you to tear through them like wet tissue paper.

[MrFob]

I actually like the solo element to Arrival. It shows how badass Shepard really is as the panicked project guards try to slow you down only for you to tear through them like wet tissue paper.

 

I don't mind the solo element either, once the mission starts but voteDC is certainly right that the explanation was idiotic. Basically his reasoning is two fold:

 

1. Stealth is important and one man is less likely to be detected -> Well, I have a master thief and a stealthy assassin on my ship. If you want to send someone solo, send them or let me take them with me.

 

2. It has to be one person so that if they get caught, it doesn't look like an Alliance operation but like some crazy terrorist -> Basically the entire crew of the Normandy at the time consists of crazy terrorists. Taking someone like Zaeed or Jack along would make this excuse even more credible, certainly not less so.

[Jukaga]

I don't mind the solo element either, once the mission starts but voteDC is certainly right that the explanation was idiotic. Basically his reasoning is two fold:

 

1. Stealth is important and one man is less likely to be detected -> Well, I have a master thief and a stealthy assassin on my ship. If you want to send someone solo, send them or let me take them with me.

 

2. It has to be one person so that if they get caught, it doesn't look like an Alliance operation but like some crazy terrorist -> Basically the entire crew of the Normandy at the time consists of crazy terrorists. Taking someone like Zaeed or Jack along would make this excuse even more credible, certainly not less so.

 

True enough, and then Hackett even manages to blow his dodgy reasoning himself by betraying you afterwards.

[congokong]

True enough, and then Hackett even manages to blow his dodgy reasoning himself by betraying you afterwards.

I have always hated Hackett. Consistently throughout the series, he uses and betrays you as he sees fit. Hell, right from the start he speaks against you becoming a spectre unless you are a war hero.

[Jukaga]

I have always hated Hackett. Consistently throughout the series, he uses and betrays you as he sees fit. Hell, right from the start he speaks against you becoming a spectre unless you are a war hero.

 

He always rubbed me the wrong way as well, from his misplaced anger at Shepard throughout ME3 to near the finale where he boards the Normandy with pistol swinging guards. I thought he was coming to arrest me the first time.

[themikefest]

good to see others that aren't fans of Hackett.

 

I would add another. He failed to let  Shepard know that he/she may encounter Cerberus on Mars. It would've been nice if he gave a heads up.

[congokong]

good to see others that aren't fans of Hackett.
 
I would add another. He failed to let  Shepard know that he/she may encounter Cerberus on Mars. It would've been nice if he gave a heads up.

There are so many reasons I hate him. I made a thread on the subject several years ago.

 

http://forum.bioware...dmiral-hackett/

 

There are many people who not only like him, but actually think he and Shepard are friends despite him never even getting personal; not like Anderson who actually cares about Shepard. When they are in the Citadel during ME3's ending and Anderson hears Shepard is in pain, he asks if Shepard is alright. Shortly later when Hackett hears, he just repeats Shepard's name because the crucible is not firing. Shepard is just a tool to him.

Another little example is how he steps in, despite it being none of his damn business, to ask no arrests be made when protestors defile the Torfan torch if Shepard has the ruthless background.

[geth47]

You guys bring a lot of valid points.

 

In part, the solo section may have been made to test the waters for the solo experience used in Mass Effect Infiltrator.

 

But in all honesty, I think both Arrival and the Kasumi adventure dlc were actually trial runs of missions in which you would only have a guest-star as squad-mate, one concept that was possibly considered for ME3 (so the ME2 survivors could have 1 sidequest with you) but ended up being disregarded. It´s very likely that instead of simply dumping the ME3 versions of ME2 squad-mates they built as prototypes they simply decided to re-add then to the arena on the citadel dlc. 

[voteDC]

What annoys me about it as well is that Hackett says that Shepard has to go alone to make it a deniable op.

So he sends the most famous human in the galaxy, the first human Spectre, saviour of the Citadel, to rescue a human scientist who the Batarians already likely think is working for the Alliance.

And he's one of the highest ranking officials in the Alliance military? Sending Thane in alone would have made more sense than sending Shepard.

[geth47]

Aside from the already raised points, there´s also one aspect that I find troublesome.

 

Why the batarians have no armada guarding the system when they knew in advance that there was a high risk of a major terrorist act taking place in that particular location and that the mass relay would be the target? Can any government be this dumb? 

 

 

I don´t have any particular problem with the illusion of choice in this adventure. I think it´s clearly obvious that the relay must be destroyed. If you´re going to recognize this imperative with a grim smile on your face or with a saddened expression seems more than enough. Renegade and Paragon are not always about killing/sparing, arresting/letting go or fighting/letting it be. It can be about how you justify the very same action, the reasons that lead you to do it or how do you handle the situation in your emotional core. It´s kinda obvious to me that this particular situation is bigger than shepard. Not pressing the button is not an option. 

 

I do find disappointing that you can not bring some squadmates with you. Legion (who could interact with their systems and turn the whole security grid down) could be valuable. As well as kasumi, who can enter a place, do what has to be done and leave in a fast and effective way without drawing attention. Thane is another one so skilled that he´s probably capable of stealing your underwear without removing your pants. If things ended up badly, Jack would have more than sufficient power to bring down a prison facility (yes, another one for her records) so she could be a card in the sleeve should everything else fail (I would feel sorry for the batarians). And let´s not forget the absolute king of survival Zaed, who´s better than anyone else in escaping from impossible situations. 

 

Unless Shepard is an Infiltrator (or, some instances, an Engineer) all these squad-mates seem like much better suited candidates to do this mission than him/her. In the cases of Legion and/or Kasumi, they could even make Shepard attract less attention. The Admiral, just like everyone else in the Alliance (or the Council) - with the only exception being good-old Anderson - is nothing but a complete and utter dolt. 

[AlleyD]

I had no moral issues with destroying the relay. Aratoht's WIKI entry states that the planet was the base for multiple military installations , with the civilian presence being concentrated on mineral extraction that used slave labour in horrendous environmental conditions of low oxygen and high temperatures, like "mount Everest in an Oven " The WIKI gaves population of 90,000 "free", 215,000 "other" 

[Natureguy85]

Aside from the already raised points, there´s also one aspect that I find troublesome.

 

Why the batarians have no armada guarding the system when they knew in advance that there was a high risk of a major terrorist act taking place in that particular location and that the mass relay would be the target? Can any government be this dumb? 

 

 

Isn't the Batarian Hegemony Indoctrinated at this point from the Leviathan of Dis? I know this only happens in the codex or off screen, so it's weak narratively, but it is a reason.

[planehazza]

Arrival was fun but given that is has one plot line only tells me that all it does is set up the story for ME3.  It's an excuse to incarcerate Shephard and have him on Earth ready for the start of ME3.

[geth47]

But Shepard ends up in jail no matter what. If not because of the relay, then because of the collaboration with Cerberus. 

[Sifr]

To be honest, the destruction of the Bahak system is a regrettably casualty of the necessity to destroy the Alpha Relay.

 

We're told that Alpha is not a normal relay, because those are limited in range, with Secondaries having the least (between systems) and Primaries the most (between star clusters). The Alpha Relay is implied to be the oldest and the normal point of entry from Dark Space, with special control switches that the Reapers use to turn it from a normal Primary Relay to one that can reach every single relay in the entire galaxy.

 

Thus the Relay itself had to be destroyed to slow the Reapers down, because otherwise they could have launched their invasion across the board without anyone even knowing what was happening. Destroying Alpha meant they were forced to rely on conventional relays, so that the invasion in ME3 happens much slower and they cannot hit all systems at once.

 

The Harvest takes even more time because the Reapers also cannot lock down the Relays - for anyone save themselves - as they previously did in other Cycles without accessing the Citadel directly. They don't seem to make a beeline for it and only capture it late in the game, yet even then the Relays remain active, so it could be that they were aware that it didn't work anymore?

 

(Possibly because the Relay control system was damaged when debris from Sovereign crashed into the main tower during ME1, a system that the Keepers haven't repaired yet or the Prothean tampering caused them to completely ignore?)

 

But yeah, it does suck that the Batarians were given the short end of the stick because along with Bahak being destroyed, their systems were the closest port of call. But from a tactical standpoint, they'd have been just as screwed if the Alpha Relay wasn't destroyed, as well as everyone else.

[DMc1001]

Arrival feels like the prologue, rather than the ME2 epilogue ironically, of the large elimination of role-playing prevalent throughout ME3.

 

I'm referring to how Shepard is so adamant, regardless of how potentially paragon they are, of killing 300,000 batarians just to slow the reapers down. Not only is this action very renegade, but I question if it's the no-brainer decision the game wants you to think it is. What's the point of slowing the reapers down if no one plans to do anything with those 6 months extra time? Shepard turns him/herself in to the Alliance to do nothing (again, potentially very out of character) while most of the galaxy is unaware of the reapers or denies they exist. Shepard just basically makes the reapers' job easier by wiping out a colony.

 

 

Those batarian colonists are dead either way.  This is fact.  The difference is that Shepard theoretically bought everyone some time by giving them the ability to prepare for the Reapers.  That they squandered it is not something Shepard could foresee.

[DMc1001]

 

I do find disappointing that you can not bring some squadmates with you.

Didn't they make it clear that this was a highly sensitive mission?  Honestly, I almost think the game shouldn't allow any non-Alliance people on N7 missions.  Maybe Jacob, but that's it.

[congokong]

Those batarian colonists are dead either way.  This is fact.  The difference is that Shepard theoretically bought everyone some time by giving them the ability to prepare for the Reapers.  That they squandered it is not something Shepard could foresee.

As said already in this thread, it is still very ruthless; necessary or not. This from the same Shepard who could say sacrificing 10 billion in one place to save 20 billion in another isn't acceptable; essentially meaning they'd rather have 10 billion die than besmirch their honor.

 

Based on what we've seen from paragons, I can totally see such a Shepard have a line in Arrival like, "No. I won't kill innocents for a greater good. If I destroyed that colony, I'd be no better than the reapers. We'll find a way to win without becoming what we we're fighting against."

[Sifr]

As said already in this thread, it is still very ruthless; necessary or not. This from the same Shepard who could say sacrificing 10 billion in one place to save 20 billion in another isn't acceptable; essentially meaning they'd rather have 10 billion die than besmirch their honor.

 

Based on what we've seen from paragons, I can totally see such a Shepard have a line in Arrival like, "No. I won't kill innocents for a greater good. If I destroyed that colony, I'd be no better than the reapers. We'll find a way to win without becoming what we we're fighting against."

 

But Shepard is not a superhero with a Do Not Kill policy in place. Shepard is a soldier and has been trained to understand that sometimes casualties are unavoidable in war, which the fight against the Reapers most certainly is.

 

Paragon Shepard even acknowledges this in Liar of the Shadow Broker, mentioning the time they were forced to sacrifice several ships and hundreds of lives to protect the Destiny Ascension in ME1. While the lives on the other ships mattered, the Destiny Ascension was the most valuable military asset to preserve, due to being a Dreadnought, having a larger crew complement, as well as having the Council onboard.

 

The reason Paragon Shepard still destroys Bahak isn't because they're being ruthless or acting out of character, but because Shepard understands the nature of the threat has left them with no alternatives, so they have to sacrifice the few to save the many.

 

Paragons are just as capable of the same things as Renegades from time to time. The difference is that they don't seek these actions as the primary option, as well as regretting what they've done afterwards. In comparison, Renegades will go for the easier option and typically not care about the results.

[MrStoob]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.