165 réponses à ce sujet

[Mdizzletr0n]

wow! That sucks. A hero is no coward. A hero saves good people. And defeats the wrong ones. A hero fights for the good of the people.They're unstoppable bad@$$3$. But I guess that's a bit cliche right? In real life a hero isn't as dramatic but they usually are morally good people. A firefighter who saves an elderly lady and her cats from a Building, that's a true hero. United States Marines, true heroes. Not cowards.

"Hero" is a relative, broad term and doesn't mean the same to everyone. I'd argue that great teachers are better heroes than soldiers. Even as a former military kid. (But I'll leave my feelings on the military for another discussion. ). Artists and scientists can be heroes, as well. There's also people that look at someone like Charles Manson as a hero. Hitler. Etc.

The protagonist could be a "coward" because their background is science and not combat. There could be times where they're forced into it for survival but are still terrified. Like in RoTR. Sure as said earlier, plowing through with a semi automatic creates a disconnect but I don't think that's the creators' ideal playthrough. Same with playing that way in say, Splinter Cell. But it is an option. Options are better for everyone.

[SKAR]

"Hero" is a relative, broad term and doesn't mean the same to everyone. I'd argue that great teachers are better heroes than soldiers. Even as a former military kid. (But I'll leave my feelings on the military for another discussion. ). Artists and scientists can be heroes, as well. There's also people that look at someone like Charles Manson as a hero. Hitler. Etc.

The protagonist could be a "coward" because their background is science and not combat. There could be times where they're forced into it for survival but are still terrified. Like in RoTR. Sure as said earlier, plowing through with a semi automatic creates a disconnect but I don't think that's the creators' ideal playthrough. Same with playing that way in say, Splinter Cell. But it is an option. Options are better for everyone.

Why would they choose a scientist that isn't combat trained? But you're right about the whole hero meaning. But this is Mass Effect we're talking about.

[GeneralXIV]

"Hero" is a relative, broad term and doesn't mean the same to everyone. I'd argue that great teachers are better heroes than soldiers. Even as a former military kid. (But I'll leave my feelings on the military for another discussion. ). Artists and scientists can be heroes, as well. There's also people that look at someone like Charles Manson as a hero. Hitler. Etc.

The protagonist could be a "coward" because their background is science and not combat. There could be times where they're forced into it for survival but are still terrified. Like in RoTR. Sure as said earlier, plowing through with a semi automatic creates a disconnect but I don't think that's the creators' ideal playthrough. Same with playing that way in say, Splinter Cell. But it is an option. Options are better for everyone.

I think that if you hurt and kill people, you can't be considered a hero... ever. Fighting is the problem, not the solution! x

[JPVNG]

I think that if you hurt and kill people, you can't be considered a hero... ever. Fighting is the problem, not the solution! x

A soldier just does his job. Someone normally tells him to do it. 

[Hammerstorm]

wow! That sucks. A hero is no coward. A hero saves good people. And defeats the wrong ones. A hero fights for the good of the people.They're unstoppable bad@$$3$. But I guess that's a bit cliche right? In real life a hero isn't as dramatic but they usually are morally good people. A firefighter who saves an elderly lady and her cats from a Building, that's a true hero. United States Marines, true heroes. Not cowards.

 

What does it mean to be a hero? That you are brave? If that so, a coward can be the bravest person in the world (galaxy). Or is a hero the person that try to make it so many as possibly get home alive (including him/her)?

And a coward can be morally "good", doesn't mean they wont hesitate to jump of a bridge to save someone. 

 

And if US marine is heroes, can't say, don't know all of them.

 

For the record, my ideal character is more in the trope http://tvtropes.org/...n/GoodIsNotSoft

[SKAR]

What does it mean to be a hero? That you are brave? If that so, a coward can be the bravest person in the world (galaxy). Or is a hero the person that try to make it so many as possibly get home alive (including him/her)?
And a coward can be morally "good", doesn't mean they wont hesitate to jump of a bridge to save someone.

And if US marine is heroes, can't say, don't know all of them.

For the record, my ideal character is more in the trope http://tvtropes.org/...n/GoodIsNotSoft

a coward to me is someone like udina. When I think of the word coward and Mass Effect he pops into my head.

[Dalakaar]

a coward to me is someone like udina. When I think of the word coward and Mass Effect he pops into my head.

Actually not sure I agree with that. Udina was scum, but cowardly? Cowardly is specific, and while he wasn't a fighter/soldier/warrior, I can't recall him being cowardly. He played back door politics and had enough balls to (un)successfully get quite the coup going. Scum of the earth, traitor, etc. But cowardly? I'unno 'bout that.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

A reluctant hero could be fun to play. For example someone like John McClane from the Die Hard franchise. He is a hero, but he doesn't want to do any of the things he is doing, and even gripes about it consistently. I love his dialogue in the fourth film about it after denying that he is or wants to be a hero and thus asked why he does it. His response is "Because there's nobody else to do it right now, that's why. Believe me, if there were somebody else to do it, I'd let them do it, but there's not. So we're doing it."

[GeneralXIV]

A soldier just does his job. Someone normally tells him to do it.

But a soldier has a choice... he doesn't have to kill anyone, he chooses to so it doesn't matter whether someone tells him to or not... it's his decision to be a soldier.

[SKAR]

Actually not sure I agree with that. Udina was scum, but cowardly? Cowardly is specific, and while he wasn't a fighter/soldier/warrior, I can't recall him being cowardly. He played back door politics and had enough balls to (un)successfully get quite the coup going. Scum of the earth, traitor, etc. But cowardly? I'unno 'bout that.

maybe you're right. Still he was a douche.

[Hammerstorm]

a coward to me is someone like udina. When I think of the word coward and Mass Effect he pops into my head.

 

I always think of Usopp in One piece when I think of cowards (may be a sign ). Now, I don't think it possibly to make a person that faint when someone talk loud at them or run away at the sight of a shadow, but a person that may be hesitant to open a door that MAY have a insane guy with a gun behind it.

[Han Shot First]

"Hero" is a relative, broad term and doesn't mean the same to everyone. I'd argue that great teachers are better heroes than soldiers. Even as a former military kid. (But I'll leave my feelings on the military for another discussion. ). Artists and scientists can be heroes, as well. There's also people that look at someone like Charles Manson as a hero. Hitler. Etc.

The protagonist could be a "coward" because their background is science and not combat. There could be times where they're forced into it for survival but are still terrified.

 

The bolded is true for soldiers as well. Someone would have to be mentally ill to not feel fear while people are trying to kill them. We're all biologically programmed to feel fear at times. It is a basic survival instinct. Someone's job description isn't going to change that.

 

Bravery isn't absence of fear. It's doing what needs to be done despite it.
 

On that note whether or not the next protagonist is a soldier, hopefully there are moments in dialogue that make the character seem human, and not like some unflappable killing machine who is completely unaffected by all the death and destruction around them.

[Han Shot First]

I think that if you hurt and kill people, you can't be considered a hero...ever.  Fighting is the problem, not the solution!

 

That sounds lovely, but it is a lie that some well-intentioned but naïve people like to tell themselves. In a perfect world war would never solve anything. Unfortunately the world we live in is far from perfect.

 

Slavery would not have ended in the United States without war, or at least not as early as did. Without war Nazi Germany might still control most of Western Europe, Imperial Japan much of Asia and the Pacific, the Holocaust would have continued without interruption until Jews had disappeared completely from Europe, and millions in Asia would have died for the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere."

[Prince Enigmatic]

The bolded is true for soldiers as well. Someone would have to be mentally ill to not feel fear while people are trying to kill them. We're all biologically programmed to feel fear at times. It is a basic survival instinct. Someone's job description isn't going to change that.

 

Bravery isn't absence of fear. It's doing what needs to be done despite it.
 

On that note whether or not the next protagonist is a soldier, hopefully there are moments in dialogue that make the character seem human, and not like some unflappable killing machine who is completely unaffected by all the death and destruction around them.

 

By this, I'm guessing that you are inferring that Shepard is this ^.

 

I would agree he doesn't exactly emote as much as a normal adjusted human being should react to all the death and destruction, but in ME3 there is definite signs of how the war and all the death and loss is effecting Shepard. I shouldn't really need to list examples, because there are quite a few.

 

Of course this is just what I was inferring from what you might have been inferring about Shepard?

 

I agree that our next protagonist should be more fully rounded and better humanised than Shepard. 

 

Also please let's not have our protagonist be apotheosised? No Chosen One or Special Snowflake bull. It's cheap, and far, far, far too relied upon. Just as bad as killing off a wife and child for male character's/superhero's manly angst.

[Shechinah]

On that note whether or not the next protagonist is a soldier, hopefully there are moments in dialogue that make the character seem human, and not like some unflappable killing machine who is completely unaffected by all the death and destruction around them.

 

I hope so as well. I liked that there were such moments in Inquisition: take after the decision at the end of the Grand Ball quest, the Inquisitor has the option of saying the following about the death of Duke Gaspard; "I never meant for the Grand Duke to die." It is said in a quiet and genuinely sad way. I felt that this was a very good moment because of how it could convey the toll such events has on a person.

 

What I also liked was that the dialogue was prompted by a companion asking the Inquisitor what they were thinking or feeling which was something I felt was sorely missing in Mass Effect. I believe Thane's death is an example of this as I cannot recall anyone even making an attempt to talk to Shepard about it which made their relationship to Shepard seem... less. I cannot quite find the right word.   
 

[SKAR]

That sounds lovely, but it is a lie that some well-intentioned but naïve people like to tell themselves. In a perfect world war would never solve anything. Unfortunately the world we live in is far from perfect.

Slavery would not have ended in the United States without war, or at least not as early as did. Without war Nazi Germany might still control most of Western Europe, Imperial Japan much of Asia and the Pacific, the Holocaust would have continued without interruption until Jews had disappeared completely from Europe, and millions in Asia would have died for the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere."

sometimes, to be the hero you have to do some nasty things to make the bad man go away. sometimes the ends justify the means, sometimes they don't. It's the real world brother.

[Han Shot First]

@Prince

 

Sorry, I'm having an issue quoting posts today.

 

That wasn't really intended as criticism of how Shepard was written. I agree that the writers gave Shepard some moments where s/he expressed private doubts or fears, and in ME3 they had Shepard beginning to experience PTSD or survivor's guilt. They all served to make Shepard feel a bit more human than s/he would have otherwise.

 

Some players have criticized those moments however, preferring that the character be an unflappable brick. Some people have also argued on this forum that Shepard shouldn't have been having nightmares in ME3, because prior combat experiences should have made Shepard immune, even though that's not how PTSD works.

 

My comments were directed more at the fans, and prior requests around these parts that the writers leave similar scenes out of the games. I hope the writers quietly ignore those requests, both because it would make the protagonist seem less like a real person, soldier or no.... and because a lack of relatable human traits would make the character completely uninteresting.

[Prince Enigmatic]

@Prince

 

Sorry, I'm having an issue quoting posts today.

 

That wasn't really intended as criticism of how Shepard was written. I agree that the writers gave Shepard some moments where s/he expressed private doubts or fears, and in ME3 they had Shepard beginning to experience PTSD or survivor's guilt. They all served to make Shepard feel a bit more human than s/he would have otherwise.

 

Some players have criticized those moments however, preferring that the character be an unflappable brick. Some people have also argued on this forum that Shepard shouldn't have been having nightmares in ME3, because prior combat experiences should have made Shepard immune, even though that's not how PTSD works.

 

My comments were directed more at the fans, and prior requests around these parts that the writers leave similar scenes out of the games. I hope the writers quietly ignore those requests, both because it would make the protagonist seem less like a real person, soldier or no.... and because a lack of relatable human traits would make the character completely uninteresting.

 

I definetely agree on all of this ^

 

 

The gaming industry as it stands is already bogged down with ^

 

By giving Shepard those much needed scenes in ME3 it made him more relatable, more likable, and more human. 

 

I think ME3 portrayed war strongly in that it never really let you forget a war was going on, whether on missions, or on the Citadel. By having Shepard having a human experience to all this shouldn't have been discouraged. I'm amazed people would want and prefer someone to not react to all that. I find that worrying.

I hope too BioWare chooses to make our new protagonist human, and relatable, and be able to react appropriately to situations rather than just be another one of the endless broody, stoic, white male protagonists. 

[Mdizzletr0n]

I definetely agree on all of this ^



The gaming industry as it stands is already bogged down with ^

By giving Shepard those much needed scenes in ME3 it made him more relatable, more likable, and more human.

I think ME3 portrayed war strongly in that it never really let you forget a war was going on, whether on missions, or on the Citadel. By having Shepard having a human experience to all this shouldn't have been discouraged. I'm amazed people would want and prefer someone to not react to all that. I find that worrying.
I hope too BioWare chooses to make our new protagonist human, and relatable, and be able to react appropriately to situations rather than just be another one of the endless broody, stoic, white male protagonists.

Only thing MaleShep was missing was the gruff voice. They gave that to the Krogans. Who themselves check a lot of boxes.

[Dalinne]

Only thing MaleShep was missing was the gruff voice. They gave that to the Krogans. Who themselves check a lot of boxes.

They check almost ALL of the boxes, except for the white skin and the hair-status 

[themikefest]

That wasn't really intended as criticism of how Shepard was written. I agree that the writers gave Shepard some moments where s/he expressed private doubts or fears, and in ME3 they had Shepard beginning to experience PTSD or survivor's guilt. They all served to make Shepard feel a bit more human than s/he would have otherwise.

Depending on the background, Shepard might already be suffering from PTSD before the start of ME1.

[Addictress]

How do you know what the tone of Battlefield 1's campaign will be? Could be they take a look the pointlessness of WW1. For instance, we already know the Bedouin woman in the trailer is one of the player characters. I wouldn't be surprised to see the end of that plot show the effective betrayal of the Arabs by the Allies with the Sykes-Picot agreement.

yes, beat the dead horse by spending 500 facking hours to demonstrate the mere point that there was pointlessness in the violence of WW1.

 

At what point do you belie a secret delight in the side benefits of this demonstration?

[Shechinah]

@Prince
 
Sorry, I'm having an issue quoting posts today.
 
That wasn't really intended as criticism of how Shepard was written. I agree that the writers gave Shepard some moments where s/he expressed private doubts or fears, and in ME3 they had Shepard beginning to experience PTSD or survivor's guilt. They all served to make Shepard feel a bit more human than s/he would have otherwise.
 
Some players have criticized those moments however, preferring that the character be an unflappable brick. Some people have also argued on this forum that Shepard shouldn't have been having nightmares in ME3, because prior combat experiences should have made Shepard immune, even though that's not how PTSD works.
 
My comments were directed more at the fans, and prior requests around these parts that the writers leave similar scenes out of the games. I hope the writers quietly ignore those requests, both because it would make the protagonist seem less like a real person, soldier or no.... and because a lack of relatable human traits would make the character completely uninteresting.

 
While I can agree wih the overall sentiment of what you say, I am not in favor of similar scenes to the dream sequences because for one, I feel that those scenes are not there for the sake of humanizing Shepard but for the sake of symbolism and that is not an impression I want to come away with from a sequence that is suppose to be about PTSD and characterization. 

 

The dream sequences were also mandatory and so took the choice of how Shepard experienced loss and dealt with it out of the players' hands which is unnecessary, in my opinion as the below quests has shown it can be expanded upon while the option to do so rest with the player.

 

In my opinion, we should not have had to play through the dreams but instead have the option of talking to our companions about dreams or similar indications of post-trauma stress; if we go with the dreams, it should be up to the player to decide what the dreams were about and entailed through the ensuing dialogue and the effect it has on them thereby providing the oppertunity to actually explore the emotional and psychological impact the dreams have and allow for optional relationship building.

 

If Shepard refuses to talk to the companion about it then that provides a neat option of roleplaying and character building as well: One Shepard might have dealt alone with their grief for so long that, that is what they always do.
 
Quests like "I Remember Me" from the first Mass Effect, I feel, are the better way of humanizing Shepard and allow the players options in how to humanize Shepard.
 
I made a post about this a long while ago and thankfully, I could find it;
 

I remember the Sole Survivor's personal quest in Mass Effect 1 where near the end of it this happens:

Corporal Toombs: "Just as long as he goes to trial. Maybe the screaming will stop now. I don't know"
Shepard (I do. It dosen't.): "All you can do is keep going. "

Although the actual line could have matched the paraphrasing a bit better, in my opinion, I still feel that this exchange and the Colonist' exchange with Talitha in the "I Remember Me" quest was so much, much better than the symbolic dreams in Mass Effect 3. These exchanges felt more human than those dreams did. The dreams felt... artificial in a way. I am not sure how to describe it. They lacked the emotional impact that these quests had to me.

I think "I Remember Me" might be my favorite quest in the entire Mass Effect series. Even the title gets to me.

 

Basically, options and dialogue.

 

Note: this is my opinionated opinion. My personal dislike of the dream sequences and similar scenes do not extend to the people who like them.

[Shechinah]

Depending on the background, Shepard might already be suffering from PTSD before the start of ME1.

 
I know the Sole Survivor's personal quest can imply with one of it's dialogue options;

Corporal Toombs: "Just as long as he goes to trial. Maybe the screaming will stop now. I don't know"
Shepard (I do. It dosen't.): "All you can do is keep going. "

[GeneralXIV]

That sounds lovely, but it is a lie that some well-intentioned but naïve people like to tell themselves. In a perfect world war would never solve anything. Unfortunately the world we live in is far from perfect.

 

Slavery would not have ended in the United States without war, or at least not as early as did. Without war Nazi Germany might still control most of Western Europe, Imperial Japan much of Asia and the Pacific, the Holocaust would have continued without interruption until Jews had disappeared completely from Europe, and millions in Asia would have died for the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere."

 

But... surely war only happens because of existing conflicts??? Like... I'm not talking about wars already happening but conflicts generally from fights to other wars to just disagreements...

 

I'm not historian haha so sorry if some of my info is wrong x

 

Okay...

 

So you mentioned slavery... which kind of came about because people were stupid and tried to dehumanize people??? That's kind of a conflict I guess... if people were less violent nothing would have happened... no slavery, no war... no nothing... I agree that it wouldn't have stopped so soon without the war but if you look at causes of the war it's all just violence and conflict... Wars are just violence born out of more violence... so violence should be stopped altogether???

 

On a smaller scale... if someone shot some people and then the cops shot them, what the cops did would be wrong... but needed at the time. They could've saved people's lives by shooting them... but their violence was caused by the shooter being violent. If the shooter hadn't have shot the people in the first place there would have been no violence at all... so violence is the problem?

Violence only happens because of violence which has already happened... it's like a chain... someone is violent which causes violence which causes more violence which causes more violence which causes even more violence and it goes on forever... we should just cut out the violence altogether and everyone can be happy. No matter what your reasons are for hurting someone you're still hurting them... even if they've killed hundreds of people and then you kill them, you're just as bad as they are... so they're no heroes... not really. The heroes are the people who save lives without bloodshed... people who work at hospitals. Firemen who save people from their burning homes... I couldn't think of a soldier as a hero... I just couldn't... they're just less of a villain to me.

 

Haha sorry if that doesn't make sense I'm really tired! x