45 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Greetings.

 

My view is this:- Spellcasting is just wishful thinking that is made real due to the Fade and someone's conscious connection to the Fade.

 

In order to cast a particular spell, the caster concentrates, focuses on what they want to happen and then draws a certain amount of Fade energy using their mana to make the effect that they imagined real.

 

This is further reinforced by the fact that different cultures and different peoples do spellcasting differently. If spellcasting is dependent on understanding real physics or real biology then that would not be the case, which lends credence to the notion that magic is merely wishful thinking made real due to the existence of the Fade.

 

Without the Fade, without a connection to the Fade and without experiencing any emotions, there would be no magic and no spellcasting.

Is this correct or is there something more, something deeper when it comes to spellcasting ?

 

In essence:- Spellcasting = Wishful Thinking + Fade Energy + Mana. Is this correct or is there something more, something deeper when it comes to spellcasting ?

 

I hope someone can change my view on this because otherwise I will lose interest in playing as a mage in the long run since the notion of wishfully thinking stuff up in a combat situation sounds ridiculous to me.

 

Cheers.

[Jedi Comedian]

Spells are sexy, but there's NOTHING sexier than a Rogue's blade... I don't know if I can help, sorry.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Spells are sexy, but there's NOTHING sexier than a Rogue's blade... I don't know if I can help, sorry.

 

Well, I previously thought there was more to spellcasting than just wishful thinking + Fade enegy + mana and it seems I am wrong, hence the question.

[Sandal Negindar]

Well, since 2009 it was pretty clear for me that in Thedas magic is just wishful thinking. If you want more fancy-ness and pseud-complexity you could think of Plato's idea world-dimension or Jung's archetypes and collective unconscious. So it is wishful thinking but it is also dependent on the collective conscience of both material and immaterial individuals, meaning people and spirits. But the fact the we do not have an INT dependent casting clearly shows mages in Thedas are more of DnD sorcerers and favored souls, meaning spontaneous casters, than mages that go into quantum mechanics cryptographic complexities of the multiverse. Perhaps you could also add wisdom to the pool, but definetly not INT.

It is obvious that intelligence (lore-wise, not stat wise) makes better spell casters, not stronger, but better, since they can have better uses of their spells by comprehending how they work and how do interactions with the Fade happen. But can intelligence beat a super powerful dreamer? Nope. Unfortunately bringing thoughts to life is more powerful than comprehending reality. In DnD terms it is like having a mage with unlimited WIsh (the spell) x another "normal" mage, well, it is not impossible that the "normal" mage wins but the one with infinite wish spell would need to be completely stupid to lose, or insane which is more likely in Thedas.

[Jedi Comedian]

Well, since 2009 it was pretty clear for me that in Thedas magic is just wishful thinking. If you want more fancy-ness and pseud-complexity you could think of Plato's idea world-dimension or Jung's archetypes and collective unconscious. So it is wishful thinking but it is also dependent on the collective conscience of both material and immaterial individuals, meaning people and spirits. But the fact the we do not have an INT dependent casting clearly shows mages in Thedas are more of DnD sorcerers and favored souls, meaning spontaneous casters, than mages that go into quantum mechanics cryptographic complexities of the multiverse. Perhaps you could also add wisdom to the pool, but definetly not INT.

It is obvious that intelligence (lore-wise, not stat wise) makes better spell casters, not stronger, but better, since they can have better uses of their spells by comprehending how they work and how do interactions with the Fade happen. But can intelligence beat a super powerful dreamer? Nope. Unfortunately bringing thoughts to life is more powerful than comprehending reality. In DnD terms it is like having a mage with unlimited WIsh (the spell) x another "normal" mage, well, it is not impossible that the "normal" mage wins but the one with infinite wish spell would need to be completely stupid to lose, or insane which is more likely in Thedas.

Well, I'd say this is pretty much the answer you were looking for OP.

(Did I say the Rogue's blade is the best? I meant the Berserker's is the sexiest fighting style there is lol. In swords we trust, magic is not nearly as cool)

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I want to be a god with magic or a superhuman.

[straykat]

Spells are sexy, but there's NOTHING sexier than a Rogue's blade... I don't know if I can help, sorry.

 

Well, I'm out of likes.

 

 

Bayonet, I agree. But I don't think the limitations are just due to physics or knowledge. Some hedges just don't imagine things as strongly or lack the discipline. Or their skills come by accident and they might be one trick ponies or very limited. But I think this is why Morrigan is stronger than usual. She lived with a taskmaster. Or Hawke, for that matter.

[PapaCharlie9]

I think it is wish fulfillment by way of the Fade also.

Thus my theory about the true source of destruction if the Veil is torn down. Everyone who can dream will be able to use magic. Imagine every stable boy or dairy maid being able to cast lightning bolts or fire glyphs. A lot of old scores are going to get settled in a spectacular way.

[Dai Grepher]

Magic is simply the expenditure of mana energy. There are a few ways to do this.

The simple example is newly discovered mages. They realize their ability and they have little control over it. They use mana and try to conjure energy to a desired result. This mostly results in elemental energy being conjured. Fire, lighting, frost.

The saarebas do not learn how to control their magic, so they develop in a different way than mages. They are like children, but with more power. So their magic manifests as purely energy. Mostly destructive energy.

A mage who is trained will learn spells, if they have the talent for it. Spells are a method of using mana to conjure certain kinds of energy from the Fade in the correct amounts to create the desired effect.

In other words, it isn't a matter of thinking it into reality. You must perform the correct maneuvers with the right amounts of mana and conjure the correct energies. These maneuvers include words, hand gestures, thoughts, etc. depending on the mage and the spell.

Some spells require rituals. Markings. Equations. Jowan's blood ritual on Isolde for example, or Flemeth's ritual on Kieran.

And I think at the high end of the spectrum is Solas, as well as Fade spirits. Solas is seen petrifying Viddasala with a flash from his eyes. He needed no hand gestures or words. It seems he only needed thought, energy, and perhaps something extra from within, his own spirit perhaps. But it looks as though he manipulated reality with these things.

Spirits seem to be able to cast magic with only a gesture. The Arcane Horrors and Desire Demons do this. So maybe being with deeper connection to the Fade require less effort.

But at the end of the day I think it depends on knowledge. What to think, what energies to conjure, how much mana to use, where to focus, and the proper order in applying all these and in the proper measure.

Jowan was suspected to not have what it takes to be a mage. So they wanted to make him tranquil. That and bloodmagic. There is also an apprentice in the Circle Mage origins who ends up setting himself on fire and needs a senior mage to douse him. So it is clear that casting magic is a delicate art.

[straykat]

Well, I'm still out of likes. Good post, Dai Grepher. That kid in the Circle came to mind for me too. That's why I think Hawke and Morrigan definitely benefited from parents, even without a Circle. Better than the circle really.

[Xerrai]

I'm sure that on basis, that is what all spell casting is. Will made reality--or "wishful thinking" as you call it. But obviously there is a bit more to it when you really get into a what mage can and can't do.

 

After all, if it was just wishful thinking, surely we'd have a lot more powerful mages in Thedas instead of the mages we have now. Immortality, teleportation, and reviving another person from the dead--these are but a few examples of how "wishful thinking" simply will not work in DA. There has to be something else in play.

 

What that 'something else' is essentially anyone's guess, but seeing how there are academic institutions which study magic (i.e. The Circle of Magi), one would assume that there is a bit more to spellcasting than simply thinking it.

 

Maybe it has to do something along the lines of comprehension?(This is just a theory, mind you. I may not even be communicating it adequately)

 

Maybe they operate under similar rules of the Thuum in Elder Scrolls, where not only do you have to know the words(or in this case, knowing what you want to cast) and how they sound or what it looks like, but you also have to be able to understand it, and more importantly, comprehend it. Otherwise the thuum would be just words and not an actual shout.

 

In DA terms, it would be like a person wishfully thinking something and nothing happening, vs a mage who was wishfully thinking it and something happening.

 

There is something about this comprehension of 'wishful thinking' that makes mages different from mundanes in DA. It is not the same as simply knowing the textbook definition of what is what, but of actually being able to know what is what as if you gained that information first-hand somehow.

 

In the end, the main difference between a mage and a mundane in DA is the mage is aware of the fade. Actually aware. Not just "yeah, I know the fade exists because books/clerics say so", but they actually know the fade because they have been to the fade. Bu the only reason they are aware of the fade in the first place is because their perception is different from that of other mortals. They comprehend the fade, not just understand that its there.

[Heimdall]

I think it's more than wishful thinking.

Or at least, it is about shaping the energies of the Fade with intent, but I think the process of channeling the energy in the desired way is a lot more intensive than can be summed up as "wishful thinking".

[straykat]

I think it's more than wishful thinking.

Or at least, it is about shaping the energies of the Fade with intent, but I think the process of channeling the energy in the desired way is a lot more intensive than can be summed up as "wishful thinking".

 

I think there's the other definition of "Will" that plays into it. It's not just a wish, but focus/enforcement/control. Like your first test in the Circle, you can defy the Valor spirit by talking him into give you a weapon... rather than play his games and duel him. Then he  says you're insolent and your will is strong.

 

I think any strong mage has this quality. I think that's why Morrigan is the way she is. That's why I don't even like making her a blood mage. She's got an attitude problem, but she defies everyone and is independent. Including with demons. And when she talks about the Fade, she talks about "Commanding" it.

 

OTOH, you could be like Solas. He doesn't Command it seems. He seems more natural and at home with it. But that makes me uncomfortable. I like the more human route.. where it's self-empowering.

[German Soldier]

I think it's more than wishful thinking.

Or at least, it is about shaping the energies of the Fade with intent, but I think the process of channeling the energy in the desired way is a lot more intensive than can be summed up as "wishful thinking".

How so?In whatever way you wish to define magic of DA (Fade energy,magical energy)it i shaped by the will and does not necessarily need devices,that's exactly wishful thinking.

[Heimdall]

How so?In whatever way you wish to define magic of DA (Fade energy,magical energy)it i shaped by the will and does not necessarily need devices,that's exactly wishful thinking.

Because it's more than just making a wish. What we've seen suggests that it takes a great degree of willpower and focus to actually make this Fade energy do as commanded. The scale of the desired effect is also a factor, with greater effects requiring more available energy and proportionally greater control and focus.

The term "wishful thinking" makes it sounds like you can just draw a little energy and make a wish on it, which is at odds with what we've seen.

[Big I]

There is a technical aspect to spellcasting. In DA:O and DA:2 you could learn Glyph spells, magic put into a speciific pattern that achieves an effect. There are runes, which operate on the same principle; drawing magic into a specific object to achieve a standardised effect. There's alchemy, which combines magical ingredients in specific portions and ratios; in Vivienne's quest you can find a codex that outlines her efforts to find a substitue for a rare ingredient that no longer exists.

 

There's banter in DA:I between Solas and Dorian, Solas and Vivienne, and I think between Dorian and Vivienne about effective spellcasting techniques, like buring up ambient mana before casting your own spell. And every significant magical working, from making golems to the Joining to creating the mabari, is a complex undetaking that can't be replicated simply by a powerful apprentice waving their hand. So there is definitely a science to magic.

[straykat]

There is a technical aspect to spellcasting. In DA:O and DA:2 you could learn Glyph spells, magic put into a speciific pattern that achieves an effect. There are runes, which operate on the same principle; drawing magic into a specific object to achieve a standardised effect. There's alchemy, which combines magical ingredients in specific portions and ratios; in Vivienne's quest you can find a codex that outlines her efforts to find a substitue for a rare ingredient that no longer exists.

 

There's banter in DA:I between Solas and Dorian, Solas and Vivienne, and I think between Dorian and Vivienne about effective spellcasting techniques, like buring up ambient mana before casting your own spell. And every significant magical working, from making golems to the Joining to creating the mabari, is a complex undetaking that can't be replicated simply by a powerful apprentice waving their hand. So there is definitely a science to magic.

 

Some of that is cool, but I'm annoyed by the overt science-y stuff with Dorian. I feel like blaming Patrick Weekes. I get the feeling he just wants to project eggheaded stuff on to magic. They were never those type of "wizards" to me before. Willpower played a big part.

 

The world needs science though.. but I expected it more from types like the Skyhold healer. Or even the Qunari. Or rogues in general. Not mages.

[Fiskrens]

The saying "Be careful what you wish for..." comes to mind here; even though it's based on "wishes", I think you need to be very precise in what you wish for. And that takes training as well as practice.

[In Exile]

Magic is simply the expenditure of mana energy. There are a few ways to do this.

The simple example is newly discovered mages. They realize their ability and they have little control over it. They use mana and try to conjure energy to a desired result. This mostly results in elemental energy being conjured. Fire, lighting, frost.

The saarebas do not learn how to control their magic, so they develop in a different way than mages. They are like children, but with more power. So their magic manifests as purely energy. Mostly destructive energy.

A mage who is trained will learn spells, if they have the talent for it. Spells are a method of using mana to conjure certain kinds of energy from the Fade in the correct amounts to create the desired effect.

In other words, it isn't a matter of thinking it into reality. You must perform the correct maneuvers with the right amounts of mana and conjure the correct energies. These maneuvers include words, hand gestures, thoughts, etc. depending on the mage and the spell.

Some spells require rituals. Markings. Equations. Jowan's blood ritual on Isolde for example, or Flemeth's ritual on Kieran.

And I think at the high end of the spectrum is Solas, as well as Fade spirits. Solas is seen petrifying Viddasala with a flash from his eyes. He needed no hand gestures or words. It seems he only needed thought, energy, and perhaps something extra from within, his own spirit perhaps. But it looks as though he manipulated reality with these things.

Spirits seem to be able to cast magic with only a gesture. The Arcane Horrors and Desire Demons do this. So maybe being with deeper connection to the Fade require less effort.

But at the end of the day I think it depends on knowledge. What to think, what energies to conjure, how much mana to use, where to focus, and the proper order in applying all these and in the proper measure.

Jowan was suspected to not have what it takes to be a mage. So they wanted to make him tranquil. That and bloodmagic. There is also an apprentice in the Circle Mage origins who ends up setting himself on fire and needs a senior mage to douse him. So it is clear that casting magic is a delicate art.

Crestive, but mana doesn't actually exist. Its just an abstract measure for willpower. Or so it was in DAO.

[Illegitimus]

Greetings.

 

My view is this:- Spellcasting is just wishful thinking that is made real due to the Fade and someone's conscious connection to the Fade.

 

In order to cast a particular spell, the caster concentrates, focuses on what they want to happen and then draws a certain amount of Fade energy using their mana to make the effect that they imagined real.

 

This is further reinforced by the fact that different cultures and different peoples do spellcasting differently. If spellcasting is dependent on understanding real physics or real biology then that would not be the case, which lends credence to the notion that magic is merely wishful thinking made real due to the existence of the Fade.

 

 

 

 

Well lets think about that that premise for a moment.  Is it really true that real physics yields only one way of doing things?  Does one culture using bows and another using blowguns and a third using Circassian slings mean that technology is wishful thinking?

[Big I]

Some of that is cool, but I'm annoyed by the overt science-y stuff with Dorian. I feel like blaming Patrick Weekes. I get the feeling he just wants to project eggheaded stuff on to magic. They were never those type of "wizards" to me before. Willpower played a big part.

 

The world needs science though.. but I expected it more from types like the Skyhold healer. Or even the Qunari. Or rogues in general. Not mages.

 

That "sciency" stuff was always there though. Going back to DA:O, the codex describes the magisters entering the Fade as this massive undertaking that took most of the lyrium in the Imperium and thousands of blood sacrifices. There's always been a method to magic. The closest it's been to pure willpower is Morrigan describing the process of shapeshifting into animals.

[Almostfaceman]

That "sciency" stuff was always there though. Going back to DA:O, the codex describes the magisters entering the Fade as this massive undertaking that took most of the lyrium in the Imperium and thousands of blood sacrifices. There's always been a method to magic. The closest it's been to pure willpower is Morrigan describing the process of shapeshifting into animals.

 

It's also there when we're talking about saving the son of the Arl, Connor. We can either use blood magic or travel to the Circle and get a bunch of lyrium and mages. 

[Sifr]

That "sciency" stuff was always there though. Going back to DA:O, the codex describes the magisters entering the Fade as this massive undertaking that took most of the lyrium in the Imperium and thousands of blood sacrifices. There's always been a method to magic. The closest it's been to pure willpower is Morrigan describing the process of shapeshifting into animals.

 

It's highly unlikely the High Priests who's importance in the Imperium was waning (hence the reason they wanted to restore belief in the Old Gods) would have been able to pull of thousands of blood sacrifices and acquire that much lyrium, without being stopped long before they breached the Fade.

 

More than likely the whole "half the lyrium in the Imperium and thousands of sacrifices" part of the story was something that was exaggerated with each retelling. No-one really knew how they did it, but none of Andraste's followers or the Chantry stopped the rumours, because saying it required such extreme blood magic to achieve would deter anyone who might seek to try it again.

 

Plus y'know, saying the Magisters Sidereal killed thousands makes them seem all the more evil, which was the point. It was effective propaganda (even if it seems to have some truth in it) that Andraste and later the Chantry could use to turn people against the Imperium.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Greetings.

 

My view is this:- Spellcasting is just wishful thinking that is made real due to the Fade and someone's conscious connection to the Fade.

 

It's worth noting that there are sources of magical power other than the Fade - darkspawn Emissaries get their magic from the taint itself, and the Sha-Brytol Earthshakers and Valta seem to get theirs from the Titan. I think the willpower + magic power = spells equation is basically accurate, though.

[maia0407]

Some of that is cool, but I'm annoyed by the overt science-y stuff with Dorian. I feel like blaming Patrick Weekes. I get the feeling he just wants to project eggheaded stuff on to magic. They were never those type of "wizards" to me before. Willpower played a big part.
 
The world needs science though.. but I expected it more from types like the Skyhold healer. Or even the Qunari. Or rogues in general. Not mages.

Huh, it's curious to me that science-y stuff annoys people. I'm reminded of a debate I had years ago with a friend about whether God exists. After going round and round over the science she finally sighed and said, "I dont understand how you can't believe in God. It just makes the universe so boring. There's no mystery." For me, the opposite is true. An interesting mystery picked apart and explained by science makes the universe even more fascinating. Mysteries without a method to explain them, which is all science is, leaves that phenomenon open for any charlatan to make up self serving stories to explain them. At any rate, it seems to me that some people want to preserve the mystery of magic to protect a sense of wonder at the unexplained.

I get the feeling that people hold two categories in their head; the natural and the supernatural. Stuff that has been explained by science gets put into the natural box and stuff that hasn't been explained gets put into the supernatural box. I don't buy into the concept of supernatural as by definition the supernatural has no effect on our reality. We would have no way to know about it. As soon as said phenomenon manifests in our reality it becomes subject to the poking and prodding of the scientific method. I think supernatural should be labeled as 'make believe'. The closest we've come to not being able to explain a phenomenon under scrutiny is quantum mechanics. Even with that field, scientists hauled out probabilities to gain a better feel for what is going on. Even so, the woo woo peddlers have descended on that field in droves to fill in the gaps of knowlege with their nonsense. Scientific understanding is essential to accurately understand the world; otherwise you have people participating in rain dances to end a drought.

In Thedas magic is part of nature; it effects their reality and is subject to scientific scrutiny. The citizens of Thedas can attempt to understand how it works and better utilize it. I'd be disappointed if the writers didn't let the characters apply the scientific method to a force of nature so vital to their world. With that knowledge, they can learn to more efficiently utilize magic and explore the limits of its capability. They can learn the dangers and take precautions. For me, exploring the 'science of magic' in my story is more interesting than just saying it's a mystery.