45 réponses à ce sujet

[Abyss108]

Well it's not just wishful thinking. It's manipulating the fade in ways to make your wishful thinking come true. And you have to study various different types of spells, so it's not just "learn the one way to cast a spell and then you can make all your dreams come true" else mages would all be a lot more powerful. There has to be something else in there, though I dunno what.

[Sah291]

I think that's true. But it doesn't seem to be as easy or simple as consciously wishing for something.

It would appear to take great deal of focus, willpower, and energy. And a connection to the fade. The fade itself doesn't appear to be easily accessible normally, due to the Veil. The only way most people are connected are through dreams.

So in order to access the fade, mages have to dream, or in otherwords access their subconscious mind (the part of themselves connected to the fade), and translate that desire from the subconscious to conscious reality and the physical plane. That is what the spells/rituals do: help the mage translate between the subconscious and conscious and direct thought and energy toward a specific goal/purpose.

Dreamers are said to be powerful because they don't need lyrium to access the fade. In other words, they easily access their subconscious and the fade is a persistent reality. They can directly alter reality with their minds. But, they are supposed to be rare, and especially dangerous if they become an abomination.

Blood mages don't use lyrium either, but blood, and I'm not sure this type of magic is supposed to be powered by the fade, but something else (like the void or abyss), and might have some connection to blight magic. I'm not sure. Solas says blood magic makes it harder to access the fade, and this could be why. What's most notable about blood mages are their ability to mind control, and seemingly to dominate spirits as well.

Templar abilities would seem to be similar, but going in the opposite direction mages would: Drawing from the conscious and physical reality and blocking the fade and subconscious realities. They use lyrium as mages do, and their rituals/spells seem to work along similar principles... but they are not mages and their ability is not called magic, since the purpose of "magic" is to manifest changes in reality, and a Templar's purpose is to enforce reality.

Oh, and I agree with Sandal Negindar, that Neoplatonism and Jung's idea of archetypes/collective unconscious seems to play a huge part in how magic is presented in the game.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I think of mana as Prana, life energy or life force. Lyrium, being alive, gives you more of that, as does blood. (sort of like a psychic or not so psychic vampire would take another's life force or Prana.) Most mages (except blood mages) draw additional Mana from the fade, the life force of wisps, spirits, and occasionally demons, hence the risk of possession for them. They then make that energy into something visible and/or even tangible. Much like making a Psi Ball, if you practice Psionics (a very questionable science of the metaphysical.) Only in DAI mages are much better than any real person I've ever known. At best people here can manage a visible Psi ball or a small flame. In DAI they can form that energy into stunning balls, walls and bolts of fire, ice, electricity, stone and more, they can use it to heal others, some can even use to to alter their own shape. Still to me it's advanced Psionics, an extension of building mental walls, being an energy or psi vampire, creating psi balls and, constructing shields to keep one from taking your energy or, block your own emphatic ability.

 

I can see how what mages do might be possible, but it would take a world with a place to get tons of life energy (mana) easily and, people who instinctively relied on that source then, had the dedication to practice and learn to manipulate it to it's full potential. Basically energy vampires or psi vampires that took it as far as possible and perfected the use of life force as a means of creating things, learned to bend the life force they are able to gather from outside themselves, as well as their own to their will.

[Phoe77]

Even if magic is just applying energy towards a specific end result, there have to be natural (supernatural?) laws that govern the ways in which that energy works.  Something has to be responsible for the ways in which magic is limited.  A successful mage would theoretically have to at least be cognizant of those laws in order to work their magic effectively.  If that's the case then mages are still employing a branch of science in their spellcasting, even if that branch doesn't exist within our own world.  

[Illegitimus]

You certainly can't just "wish for a ham sandwich" and get a ham sandwich any more than you can decide "I don't really like lyrium or blood, so I want to get magic power from guacamole".  You have to develop some kind of systematic approach to ham sandwich summoning.  

[Dai Grepher]

Crestive, but mana doesn't actually exist. Its just an abstract measure for willpower. Or so it was in DAO.

And what in DA:O stated this?

In DA:I Vivienne talks about mana imbalance and the physical effects of it. So I think mana is a real thing. When you don't have any, you can't do magic.

[In Exile]

And what in DA:O stated this?

In DA:I Vivienne talks about mana imbalance and the physical effects of it. So I think mana is a real thing. When you don't have any, you can't do magic.

 

I saw the quote, and it does seem like at least DA:I acts line "mana" is a real thing, whether retcon or original intention. And I think that was a Solas/Dorian banter that mentions it, so it either came from PW or DG, in either case strong authority for it being a real phenomenon now. 

 

I don't know if mana is mentioned in DA:O proper - this was part of DG's comments on the setting in the pre-release period to DA:O. This is old stuff, so it may well have been re-written. We talked about it when the mechanics were announced. It's been so long I can't remember the timeline - post adoption of TheDAS as the setting name, and I think post the Qunari being revealed as the TheMOR. 

[Sandal Negindar]

It is not like "magic has a method" it is more like the less connected to the fade you are the more you need "support" to your magic. The less you are commanding the Fade the more the Fade commands you, so you are submissive to it's mechanics, but when you are more and more connected you need less gestures, chants and others to do magic.

This is what I meant with it being like Jung's collective unconscious. You are, somehow, dependent on how the world "thinks" in the fade or like the fade "thinks", as a reflect of a collective of conscience. But when you comprehend fade as what it is and interacts with it "directly", like as if you just touched it instead of accepting it as a reality, then you can shape it more freely, like when Solas says that if he broke the veil he could shape reality itself.

In other words we could say that the more you believe you depend on rituals to make your magic work the more you really need them but if you just want to tap into raw power and bring it to life you can also do that. It is clear that mages can do magic without even knowing it exists and without even trying.

I would even say that rituals were probably created to shape and contain magic, to reduce it's collateral effects, to make it so that mages achieve more predictable effects. Something like, we can make fire in infinite different ways, but mages eventually created a "magic printing" of a specific fire type-shape in the fade and all mages could summon this fire by repeating the ritual that was created. It is not like it is the only way to create fire but one known, documented and predictable way, while the others may result in... well... almost anything, from a tiny fire-spark to a multiversal sun that consumes all worlds (we hope not).

Magic spells and magic study is probably result of mages fade-shaping, like bringing order to the chaotic nature of the fade. It is more like shaping the fade to predict its effects than understanding it's very nature which would probably be impossible for the "order-rational-causal" human mind. Well, part of it is a fact since we know the fade shapes itself after our own thoughts so in studying it we are giving it shape, but I sincerely think ANY predictability of the fade is due to mages interference in it. Something like "if I do this I have fire so if I do that I have water"... not because it was like that but because the mages brought rational reasoning and causality to the fade so it became it.

As Cole helps you inside the fade it makes it clear that wishful thinking is fade's main mechanics and all other mechanics are derivative of your own thoughts so a religious person would probably need faith to cast spells while a scientific person would need "fade physics" comprehension to do the same, a dancer would probably cast while dancing and the spells would probably fail if the person tumbled... I guess this is enough for the picture... any causality of the fade is nothing but the human mind imposing the real world causality in the fade, but it is still "wishful thinking". Perhaps wishful thinking is not a good term after all, since it is all unconscious.

[Medhia_Nox]

Well it's not just wishful thinking. It's manipulating the fade in ways to make your wishful thinking come true. And you have to study various different types of spells, so it's not just "learn the one way to cast a spell and then you can make all your dreams come true" else mages would all be a lot more powerful. There has to be something else in there, though I dunno what.

 

You see... I don't think it's "studying spells".  I think it's developing visualization techniques to manifest "fire" or "ice" in a way that is useful. 

 

There's no arcane forumula that connects with a deeper truth in Thedas' cosmology like in... say... D&D.  Where you can study a science-like magic and get results that are constantly reproducible like "Magic Missle".  

 

Real world visualization takes a LOT of practice - what it leads to is not a discussion for this thread - but it takes a lot of willpower to do what people like Yogi's, Kabbalists and Shamans claim they can do in the real world.  

I imagine it is no different than this.  Using techiniques, both physical and mental, to train the mind to manipulate the Fade with increasingly reliability. 

 

Which - for me - is why I mage who could make it through the Seeker Vigil would be phenomenally scary.  

[Xerrai]

Which - for me - is why I mage who could make it through the Seeker Vigil would be phenomenally scary.  

I'm sure the Templars would agree. Probably part of why they were phased out of the Seekers, even though their founder was one.

 

Just imagine: a person who both  has the mental aptitude to control the fade AND had the physical-psychological fortitude to go through the vigil? And now they can manipulate lyrium? Just writing it gives me chills when you really think about it.

 

Even just one renegade Seeker-Mage would prove to be a problem--one that even other Seekers may have trouble countering.

[Aliceeverafter]

But that's a bit like saying sword fighting is nothing more than waving a sharp pointed piece of metal around and hoping you hit someone.

That is basically what it is, but with a lot more effort, precision and thought to make it become a useful tool/weapon.

What would you like it to be if not wishful thinking made real?

(me i don't care, so long as i get plenty of green sucky uppy flashy boom spells )

[Baaleos]

There is merit to the idea of it being wishful thinking.

Another aspect of it could be that 

 

Spells are dreams / fantasy given substance: but limited by the reality that you are bringing them into.

In order to make them real - they require energy channeled from the fade and will from the caster to shape them.

Because the spells are being brought into the real/waking world - they become subject to the rules of nature, such as gravity and other rules that affect things like lightning.

For this reason: No one mage can cast a spell that sets the world on fire, no matter how much he imagines it - simply put, he doesn't have enough fuel to power such a fire. This limiting factor, results in fireballs being, well.... fireballs, and not giant meteorites of death the size of the moon.

This reasoning is why one cannot simply 'Wish' someone dead - they have to do something that results in the death instead.

Eg: Lightning bolt to kill someone, but this then requires knowing where the person is which then requires line of sight and this is where we get battle mechanics.

 

(The exception to the above - would be the special mages, called Dreamers or Dream Walkers or whatever they are: Even then, their power is limited to when both they and their victim are dreaming - once again, the magic is limited by rules defined by the world in which they reside: Fade or Waking world)

 

The reason why Mages have such a rough time from demon possession is because if they channel too much energy, they can catch the attention of demons and spirits who also get pulled into the waking world, using the mage as a conduit.

 

Imaging a vast reservoir of water, inside that reservoir are a bunch of poisonous parasites.

If you take a drink from that reservoir using a tap, but only do so sparingly - there could be a reduced chance of the Parasites getting pulled into the piping and thus poisoning the drinker.

If the drinker leaves the tap running (channels too much magic for too long), then the parasites (spirits and demons), can use the piping to infect the drinker (mage).

 

 

In Dragon Age - we see a few varieties of Blood Mages.

Ones who are given Blood Magic from Demons - who usually made a deal at the expense of their souls to get that power.

Or the ones who studied it for years learning it.

 

While blood magic has its taboo in the World of Dragon Age, it seems that not all of them end up becoming possessed by demons.

It never happens to the player for instance.

 

I'd say that Blood Magic, when used allows the mage to channel vast amounts of magic, but the magic is not coming from the fade, but rather from the expenditure / cost of life. Blood mages usually prefer that life to be someone elses, but as we have seen from Dragon Age games, the player character can be the one to make the sacrifice - the morally less evil choice I guess. Blood magic might even be seen as a way to prevent one from getting possessed, as they reduce their exposure to the fade and demons that reside within.

 

Blood Magic that results in possession, in my opinion, just tends to be the lazy mages who did not study and respect the discipline. They rushed ahead, made a deal with a demon, who then possessed them.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Huh, it's curious to me that science-y stuff annoys people. I'm reminded of a debate I had years ago with a friend about whether God exists. After going round and round over the science she finally sighed and said, "I dont understand how you can't believe in God. It just makes the universe so boring. There's no mystery." For me, the opposite is true. An interesting mystery picked apart and explained by science makes the universe even more fascinating. Mysteries without a method to explain them, which is all science is, leaves that phenomenon open for any charlatan to make up self serving stories to explain them. At any rate, it seems to me that some people want to preserve the mystery of magic to protect a sense of wonder at the unexplained.
I get the feeling that people hold two categories in their head; the natural and the supernatural. Stuff that has been explained by science gets put into the natural box and stuff that hasn't been explained gets put into the supernatural box. I don't buy into the concept of supernatural as by definition the supernatural has no effect on our reality. We would have no way to know about it. As soon as said phenomenon manifests in our reality it becomes subject to the poking and prodding of the scientific method. I think supernatural should be labeled as 'make believe'. The closest we've come to not being able to explain a phenomenon under scrutiny is quantum mechanics. Even with that field, scientists hauled out probabilities to gain a better feel for what is going on. Even so, the woo woo peddlers have descended on that field in droves to fill in the gaps of knowlege with their nonsense. Scientific understanding is essential to accurately understand the world; otherwise you have people participating in rain dances to end a drought.
In Thedas magic is part of nature; it effects their reality and is subject to scientific scrutiny. The citizens of Thedas can attempt to understand how it works and better utilize it. I'd be disappointed if the writers didn't let the characters apply the scientific method to a force of nature so vital to their world. With that knowledge, they can learn to more efficiently utilize magic and explore the limits of its capability. They can learn the dangers and take precautions. For me, exploring the 'science of magic' in my story is more interesting than just saying it's a mystery.

Best post of the year and one of the greatest i've ever read on this forum.

[Sah291]

Even if magic is just applying energy towards a specific end result, there have to be natural (supernatural?) laws that govern the ways in which that energy works. Something has to be responsible for the ways in which magic is limited. A successful mage would theoretically have to at least be cognizant of those laws in order to work their magic effectively. If that's the case then mages are still employing a branch of science in their spellcasting, even if that branch doesn't exist within our own world.

Because of the asummption then that it is imaginary I guess?

The fade, as near as we all tell, is not an imaginary or supernatural place in Thedas, but is treated like another layer to reality. There's a material plane, and an astral plane, which is made up of spirit and pure mental thought.

So mages are using the fade to manifest actions on the physical layer, but there's no reason to think it isn't a natural process in Thedas and doesn't follow certain laws or principles. As someone else said, they can't just magic up a ham sandwhich at random by wishing, or thinking really hard. There's some logic behind it. They have basic schools of magic and spells broken out based on primal elements like fire, water/ice, air, earth, and spirit. So a fire spell for example is manipulating the metaphysical properties of fire.

I think the OP said in another thread that they had preferred magic being presented with a cost, and as inherently more chaotic. If I'm remembering correctly?

Magic in Thedas does have a cost-of energy and mana. Which was one of the arguments for the Circle system, because presumably mages always desire more and more power to fuel their spells. This of course being most dangerous when it comes to blood magic.

[Medhia_Nox]

Because of the asummption then that it is imaginary I guess?

The fade, as near as we all tell, is not an imaginary or supernatural place in Thedas, but is treated like another layer to reality. There's a material plane, and an astral plane, which is made up of spirit and pure mental thought.

So mages are using the fade to manifest actions on the physical layer, but there's no reason to think it isn't a natural process in Thedas and doesn't follow certain laws or principles. As someone else said, they can't just magic up a ham sandwhich at random by wishing, or thinking really hard. There's some logic behind it. They have basic schools of magic and spells broken out based on primal elements like fire, water/ice, air, earth, and spirit. So a fire spell for example is manipulating the metaphysical properties of fire.

I think the OP said in another thread that they had preferred magic being presented with a cost, and as inherently more chaotic. If I'm remembering correctly?

Magic in Thedas does have a cost-of energy and mana. Which was one of the arguments for the Circle system, because presumably mages always desire more and more power to fuel their spells. This of course being most dangerous when it comes to blood magic.

 

This is NOT the principles set forth in the original DA:O.

When you are introduced to the Fade and to magic and to spirits... it is completely true that you CAN wishful think up a sandwich.

Valor creates imaginary swords that are only real if you believe they are.  They don't "cut" anything... because there's nothing to actually cut in the Fade.  They "cut" things, because you believe they cut things.

 

Mage:  Did you make all these weapons?

 

Valor: They are brought into being by my will. I understand that in your world, mages are the only ones that can will things into being. Those mortals who cannot must lead such hollow, empty lives.

 

When you see mages learning the library... the mage who listens to the teacher talk about controlling fire - fails to control the fire NOT because he didn't cast the right spell, he doesn't cast any spell at all, but because he is terrified by the fire - it begins to consume him, because that's what he believe fire does... the teacher uses "ice" to "extinguish" the fire - because that's one way to extinguish fire... but because he cast a "cancel fire consuming student" spell. 

 

Teacher:  ...must control the fire with your will. Keep the flames steady. We don't want it sputtering and leaping about - that's what causes the most injuries -

 

Students:  I... injuries?  B.. b... but...

 

Teacher:  Steady, it reacts to your emotions.  If you panic, it will - no!  No, no!  Breath!

 

Same with the fireball and the shield.  The teacher warns the student that had he had even the slightest bit less concentration the fireball would have crushed him.

 

Teacher:  Concentrate.  Hold the shield.  Pathetic, if I had put my power behind that spell, you would have been obliterated.

 

This... right here.  He just "casts" fireball.  BUT... you can cast a "weak" fireball, a "strong" fireball... evidently, if the first student/teach lesson is to be believed... a fireball that consumes you because you panic.

 

BUT...

 

Then... they realized that this design was too complex and scrapped it for the Magic/Fade for Dummies that comes in DA:2 and DA:I.  I personally want DA:O magic back on Thedas.

[Qis]

The Fade and real world turnout to be not a separate different world at all, at least that what i understand with Solas plan. I mean if he can tore off the Veil and bring bring back The Fade into the world, then the world is The Fade, it now just being separated by the Veil.

 

So in short it is like Inception, there are many level of dreams, Thedas is just one level of a dream, The fade is another level of a dream. It is a dream within dream.

 

In the current level of dream, only certain people have a strong connection to the other level of dream, Mages, they can bring those dream (The Fade) into this level of dream (Thedas), in a form of "magic".

 

Tranquil cannot perform magic because their connection to the other level of dream being severed, but the side effect for Mages is they lost their emotion, not like any normal people because all people except Dwarves actually have connection to the level of dream, just weaker than Mages. Dwarves are just an exception to this rule for reason. (Maybe Dwarves are actually dream creature themselves, like spirits and demons.)

[Bayonet Hipshot]

*snip*

 

Then... they realized that this design was too complex and scrapped it for the Magic/Fade for Dummies that comes in DA:2 and DA:I.  I personally want DA:O magic back on Thedas.

 

This. In DAO, the magical complexity present doesn't make the notion of magic is just wishful thinking + energy source apparent. DA2 and DAI did just that.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

 they can't just magic up a ham sandwhich at random by wishing, or thinking really hard.

That's way Hogwarts magic is better than the circle system of magic they teach how to make sandwiches with magic they solved the problem of hunger in the world

[Gervaise]

There is also the fact that the material world resists the efforts of the mage.    The spirit in the library mentions that.    Conjuring up whatever you can imagine is easy in the Fade because it is in constant flux.   Its very nature is conducive to producing whatever you wish for.    The material world was intended to be resistant to change, which is why things created there are permanent, or at least take a long time to break down.   So I think that mana gives the ability to overcome the natural resistance of the world to being reformed by temporarily channelling in the nature of the Fade.  This allows you to conjure a fire ball out of nothing but it only lasts for a limited time.   As the mage grows in knowledge and willpower they can produce longer lasting and more powerful effects but even then there is a limit to them.   Clearly it is dependent on the mind of the mage since the effect ceases if the mage is killed.  Even then there are limits to what a mage can produce as the spirit points out and trying to exceed them is likely to end in disaster.   

[Sah291]

Then... they realized that this design was too complex and scrapped it for the Magic/Fade for Dummies that comes in DA:2 and DA:I.  I personally want DA:O magic back on Thedas.

 

In what way do you think it changed significantly from DAO to DA2/DAI?

 

DA2 didn't really deal with the mechanics of magic that much, and there wasn't that much new info. It introduced dreamers, and dealt with the subject of possession. DAI delved deeper into the fade/raw fade. As for Valor, it's one thing to will something into being in the fade, but another to do it on the physical plane, which is much less mutable. This was said to be one of the reasons spirits get frustrated when they come to the mortal world. 

 

The mage students losing control of fire if they panic makes sense too. It's hard to focus if one is panicking. Plus a mage would need to believe in what they are attempting to achieve for it work, I'm not sure how they could use their willpower to direct magic if they didn't. It's been a long time since I've played Origins so I can't remember if they cast a spell or not in that scene. But as far as needing spells, or a right way to cast them, magic would work according to certain principles, but there could be more than one way to apply them. I'm sure mages would probably argue about it among themselves though.

[sunnydxmen]

wishful thinking turning thought into reality sounds like magic too me. so everybody who can do magic is genie sings Aladdin.