100 réponses à ce sujet

[JoltDealer]

I think that people would do well to remember that Mass Effect 3 didn't punish people who played as a Paragade or Renegon. Considering that Mass Effect Andromeda is building upon the feedback from Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age Inquisition (in its own way), I think we'll see a morality system that allows for a more diverse personality for player characters. The reputation system in ME3 worked pretty well and allowed players to use paragon and renegade choices equally, as well as the interrupts.

[AlanC9]

ME3 introduced a different problem, though; you're punished for not being a completionist. More precisely, a completionist passes all the checks. Some checks are so simple that you don't even have to be a completionist to pass them. Any imported Shepard must pass the VS confrontation check.

[KirkyX]

ME3 introduced a different problem, though; you're punished for not being a completionist. More precisely, a completionist passes all the checks. Some checks are so simple that you don't even have to be a completionist to pass them. Any imported Shepard must pass the VS confrontation check.

Yeah... Honestly, this is why I'd really rather persuasion were just broken out into its own skill that you invest points in, like in most other RPGs. Mass Effect's always toyed with this idea - obviously, you had Charm/Intimidate in 1, and your class skill upped your Paragon/Renegade points in 2 - but the connection between the morality system and the persuasion options has always undermined it.

 

Have a reputation system on top of that specific persuasion skill - like, people who are in a position to have heard of you will be more/less willing to trust you, or have differing preconceptions of you, based on how you've handled other situations in the past - and some cool class/skill specific dialogue - like the Engineer interrupt in Omega, and the background/class options in DA: I, but dramatically expanded - and you've got all the makings of a fantastic dialogue system that doesn't punish you for roleplaying - indeed, it encourages it - and rewards players who are willing to invest in 'talky' skills.

 

Some take on the 'personality' system from Dragon Age II could be interesting, too.

[In Exile]

I disagree. Things worked reasonably well in ME1, but in ME2 playing a more neutral character meant you were automatically less persuasive everywhere, and set to fail all the more difficult opportunities, and that's complete and utter BS. Also, ME2's system was really unfriendly to the the more neutral types by making it so that every non-one-sided choice you made made all following persuasion attempts more difficult. If you played a neutral alignment, around the end of the game you wouldn't be able to convince anyone of anything, while the same situations, dealt with earlier in the game, might've been easy. ME2's system, as far as I'm concerned, was a complete failure.

@Pasquale1234:
Nice to see someone still finds my old thread useful

What ME2 actually did was really reward paragades - since you got a boost to P/R based on your ME1 score having really high values of both allowed you a lot more flexibility in ME2 to choose between P/R.

I found that my pure P or R characters were heavily punished for apostasy but my paragades were OK to continue on that way.

[Hazegurl]

 

 

It has never been a good/evil system anyway, a lot of the fanbase have seen it that way for some weird reason, even though Hudson(it might have been Walters actually) clarified in an interview back in around 2011 that the players have never/will never be given the option to be truly evil(in the original trilogy at least, Andromeda may change that), e.g. betraying the galactic forces to side with the Reapers, so I don't know how that viewpoint still persists.

 

I think that has a lot to do with some players just not liking Renegade choices and because most of the rewards go to Paragon choices.  It didn't help that BW rewritten some renegade choices to be far worse than they actually are.

 

 

Well I guess genocide is no longer evil then...

 

The Genophage is hardly genocide. All it did was restrict the Krogan from having too many babies.  It just became genocide for...reasons.

[Drone223]

What ME2 actually did was really reward paragades - since you got a boost to P/R based on your ME1 score having really high values of both allowed you a lot more flexibility in ME2 to choose between P/R.

I found that my pure P or R characters were heavily punished for apostasy but my paragades were OK to continue on that way.

ME2 didn't reward paragades it actually did the opposite, it punished player's who didn't play pure paragon/renegade. If players didn't play pure paragon/renegade they weren't able to pass certain persuasion points most notably the arguments between Miranda/Jack and Tali/Legion. People had to use mods to max out both paragon/renegade points in ME2 so they don't have to worry about the poorly implemented morality system in ME2.

[Beerfish]

It's pretty simple, every thing I do is good, everyone else is evil. make it so number one.

[In Exile]

ME2 didn't reward paragades it actually did the opposite, it punished player's who didn't play pure paragon/renegade. If players didn't play pure paragon/renegade they weren't able to pass certain persuasion points most notably the arguments between Miranda/Jack and Tali/Legion. People had to use mods to max out both paragon/renegade points in ME2 so they don't have to worry about the poorly implemented morality system in ME2.

No, you misunderstood. ME2 gives you bonus P/R points based on ME1 P/R score. If you were an ME1 paragade, you could almost max out each of your P/R scores. This will allow you come into ME1 with large P/R scores for each, rather than with just a large P score or a large R score. ME2 punishes the paragade playthrough, but that's not the game I was talking about. ME2 rewards being a paragade in ME1.

[Toasted Llama]

I think that has a lot to do with some players just not liking Renegade choices and because most of the rewards go to Paragon choices.  It didn't help that BW rewritten some renegade choices to be far worse than they actually are.

 

 

 

The Genophage is hardly genocide. All it did was restrict the Krogan from having too many babies.  It just became genocide for...reasons.

 

I wasn't hinting at the genophage. Killing the rachni is still genocide.

[Sartoz]

I think that people would do well to remember that Mass Effect 3 didn't punish people who played as a Paragade or Renegon. Considering that Mass Effect Andromeda is building upon the feedback from Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age Inquisition (in its own way), I think we'll see a morality system that allows for a more diverse personality for player characters. The reputation system in ME3 worked pretty well and allowed players to use paragon and renegade choices equally, as well as the interrupts.

                                                                                      <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>

 

Interrupts... hate them. I have a propensity to focus and they are quite jarring to me, kicking me out of game immersion. Never understood the need for such a game design.

[Shechinah]

                                                                                      <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>

 

Interrupts... hate them. I have a propensity to focus and they are quite jarring to me, kicking me out of game immersion. Never understood the need for such a game design.

 

My major problem with intterupts is the sound they make when they appear and when they are selected; the sound is intrusive to me and seems unnecessary.

[JoltDealer]

<<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>
 
Interrupts... hate them. I have a propensity to focus and they are quite jarring to me, kicking me out of game immersion. Never understood the need for such a game design.

I'll admit, they're not as good as they could be, but it allows for some pretty cool moments. The option to take action instead of speak is a nice one.

[Hazegurl]

I wasn't hinting at the genophage. Killing the rachni is still genocide.

Ah.  I disagree.  In ME 1 the Rachni had a bad history with everyone, to the point where the Krogan had to be uplifted to stop them. The Paragon choice banks on hope and prayer, and her word alone that they won't come back and be a future problem. In ME3 the Rachni Queen was captured....again and used for breeding Reaper soldiers the Queen could not control.  Killing her makes sure that won't happen again.

 

I don't even wanna think of that fake Queen and BW switching the Paragon/Renegade options to make Paragon about killing her.  lol!

[Seboist]

There was no "genocide" of the Rachni in ME1 vis a vis the Queen, it was the killing of one individual.

[AlanC9]

That action causes an intelligent species to go extinct. Why isn't that genocide?

[Shechinah]

There was no "genocide" of the Rachni in ME1 vis a vis the Queen, it was the killing of one individual.

 

An individual who'd been shown to be capable of asexually reproducing and replenishing a race that would otherwise become extinct meaning that if she dies, her race dies with her. This is the motivation your squadmates might cite for why they think she should be killed by you meaning they are advocating killing her because of an intent to wipe out her race and knowing the act of murder will do so.

[Cz-99]

I never had an issue with the morality system. I'm not a fan of choosing one or the other (in any game) so I just go with whatever feels right in that situation. My characters usually tend to lean towards Paragon but I've mixed 'em since ME1 and continued the trend in ME2. The only check I couldn't pass was the one with Morinth, but that wasn't vital. Never had an issue with the Legion/Tali argument nor the Miranda/Jack one. I do agree that it'd be nice to see more options in terms of dialogue, but I can't say I was ever 'punished' for not picking and sticking with one. 

[SKAR]

It's a crazy dilemma. On one side the rachni killed so many people in the wars and they were a problem, and then you see them as just another species. Why should you dictate whether they live or die? Is it ethical?

[In Exile]

That action causes an intelligent species to go extinct. Why isn't that genocide?

 

Moreover, you clearly had the mens rea for genocide, too. It wasn't just about killing the rachni queen - it was about making sure the rachni stay dead, for good.

 

But that's partly why the choice was so absurd and ridiculous. 

[Han Shot First]

What ME2 actually did was really reward paragades - since you got a boost to P/R based on your ME1 score having really high values of both allowed you a lot more flexibility in ME2 to choose between P/R.
I found that my pure P or R characters were heavily punished for apostasy but my paragades were OK to continue on that way.

That was only after DLC. Prior to DLC and the opportunities they provided to increase your paragon or renegade scores, it could be very difficult to resolve squadmate conflicts and keep them both loyal. Prior to DLC the lack of potential morality points ended up encouraging pure paragon or renegade playthroughs and punishing players who mixed it up. ME3 handled it much better and made paragade playthroughs more viable from launch.

[Kaweebo]

I'll admit, they're not as good as they could be, but it allows for some pretty cool moments. The option to take action instead of speak is a nice one.

Yeah but oftentimes, you're never quite sure what that option is. And the 'Interrupt' is such a reactive, instinctual thing that you don't really get a lot of time to think about it before it's gone. I'm not sure how Bioware could pull off letting you know 'If you do this Interrupt, you shoot that guy!' but otherwise it's a little weird trying to guess exactly what will happen. Sometimes it's obvious, other times not so much.

 

 

That was only after DLC. Prior to DLC and the opportunities they provided to increase your paragon or renegade scores, it could be very difficult to resolve squadmate conflicts and keep them both loyal. Prior to DLC the lack of potential morality points ended up encouraging pure paragon or renegade playthroughs and punishing players who mixed it up. ME3 handled it much better and made paragade playthroughs more viable from launch.

That's because they took away the neutral option, which is a terrible solution to the problem created in ME2. Of course it's easier to rack up Paragon and Renegade points if your only options are top choice or bottom choice. 

[Hazegurl]

It's a crazy dilemma. On one side the rachni killed so many people in the wars and they were a problem, and then you see them as just another species. Why should you dictate whether they live or die? Is it ethical?

I actually wish ME 1 gave us the option to just leave her alive in the tank, let her find her own way out if she's truly intelligent and resourceful. That way Shepard can avoid dictating her life or death. Put it in her own hands. I agree it is a crazy dilemma especially when you have no way of knowing if the Queen would be influenced by another "sour yellow note" in the future (sadly she does). But on the other hand, she's an intelligent life form.

 

My canon is to release her in ME1 then leave her to die in ME 3 because at this point my Shep is preparing for the possibility of fighting the Reapers long term. How many times will she be influenced by this "sour yellow note" in the span of an entire Reaper invasion. I'd rather not have her or her children sitting in an Alliance base when she starts hearing it in the future.

[themikefest]

Depending on the playthrough, a paragon can have a worst playthrough than a renegade. I did a renegade playthrough with only Kaidan dying on Virmire and the robot being fried when picking destroy. As a paragon I had the memorial wall completely filled. excellent. It all depends on what the player chooses to do in the playthrough.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I'll admit, they're not as good as they could be, but it allows for some pretty cool moments. The option to take action instead of speak is a nice one.

If only we were allowed to know what the action was before choosing it, and been able to trigger it by some means other than a QTE.

If the interrupts came with an auto-pause and more detail, they would absolutely be an improvement over not having them.

[Aimi]

That was only after DLC. Prior to DLC and the opportunities they provided to increase your paragon or renegade scores, it could be very difficult to resolve squadmate conflicts and keep them both loyal. Prior to DLC the lack of potential morality points ended up encouraging pure paragon or renegade playthroughs and punishing players who mixed it up. ME3 handled it much better and made paragade playthroughs more viable from launch.

...no? Persuasion options in ME2 are calculated based on a percentage relative to the amount of morality the player has relative to the total morality available in the segments of the game completed so far. Kasumi added a little bit to the equation, but not much (25-30 morality points total, when players usually have a couple hundred by the time of the Jack-Miranda dispute). By comparison, the player can import 190 Paragon and 190 Renegade points from ME1, which has a tremendous impact, particularly in the early going, especially since they're basically "free" (i.e. not incorporated into the percentage calculations in the game). If the player does Jack and Miranda's loyalty missions before the Disabled Collector Vessel, those 190 points make a significant amount of the difference. (By endgame, when most people do the Legion-Tali dispute, players are sitting on well over a thousand points...) It's perfectly easy to run a Paragade Shepard with full point imports from ME1, while ignoring Kasumi/Overlord/LotSB until later in the game, and still facilitate Paragade play in ME2 including tough persuasion options. It's my standard way to play, and has been since launch; it wasn't enabled by the release of Overlord or LotSB.