274 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaweebo]

Putting words into a game means a lot. Consciously putting any dialogue line in there costs voice acting minutes and is a deliberate expenditure of resources, and part of the game. What does it say? That a character in a world of Thedas where sexuality isn't an issue suddenly finds it an issue. No, since it isn't an issue in Thedas, it breaks the fourth wall and draws the issue from the IRL gamer playing the game. Breaking fourth wall - breaking immersion. 

If you read the 'Sexuality in Thedas' codex entry, it says that homosexuality is generally looked upon unfavorably in Ferelden, at least if its done indiscreetly (read: publicly). Given that in most cases, your character comes from Ferelden, it makes sense that the idea of two women dancing would be a little odd. And if that doesn't make sense to you, you can always just not choose it, which I will always support just as I have no problem with the Inquisitor showing a lack of understanding or even outright disagreement with Dorian's homosexuality in his own companion quest. Options are never a bad thing.

 

I have absolutely no issue with there being an option to express opinions on any number of issues, as unimportant as some people may think them to be in certain situations. I like it when NPCs ask me questions about what I think as it lets me build my character, even in small ways. That was my main problem with ME3. Your character could have been a completely racist, repugnant ******* and yet you're *forced* to care about certain things or like certain characters you otherwise may not have given a **** about prior. (Liara, especially) 

[Remix-General Aetius]

DUH we knew the release window ages ago. This is nothing new.

[Giantdeathrobot]

You missed what I said. Having a lesbian character in Star Wars is fine. Making a speech about it isn't.

 

Like Duchess Floriannce irritated me too, when she asks you to dance and you can go "uh, two women dancing?" Such a line should't be an option. Just dance with her.

 

The thing is, what you consider ''a speech'' is what others consider just part of the story. Just where was the speech in Krem's case? When IB tells you off if the PC is a bit too blunt with him? Because that seems like a friend's natural reaction to me. In Dorian's case, when? The sidequest deal with many more issues that Dorian's sexuality, for instance.

 

I also fail to see how dialog options can be a bad thing in an RPG. It's not preachy at all; your character expresses surprise, and this can very well be justified since they come from a non-Orlesian culture regardless of their background.

 

I'm not keen on the idea that writers shouldn't allow the PC to react to events in various ways, or that characters in-story shouldn't react in various ways to what the PC says, in the name of not appearing to make a ''speech''. Or that Dorian should be OK with his dad trying to use blood magic to force him to conform to social standards because if he's not, why, Bioware is forcing their ideas on us.

[Addictress]

If you read the 'Sexuality in Thedas' codex entry, it says that homosexuality is generally looked upon unfavorably in Ferelden, at least if its done indiscreetly (read: publicly). Given that in most cases, your character comes from Ferelden, it makes sense that the idea of two women dancing would be a little odd. And if that doesn't make sense to you, you can always just not choose it, which I will always support just as I have no problem with the Inquisitor showing a lack of understanding or even outright disagreement with Dorian's homosexuality in his own companion quest. Options are never a bad thing.

 

I have absolutely no issue with there being an option to express opinions on any number of issues, as unimportant as some people may think them to be in certain situations. I like it when NPCs ask me questions about what I think as it lets me build my character, even in small ways. That was my main problem with ME3. Your character could have been a completely racist, repugnant ******* and yet you're *forced* to care about certain things or like certain characters you otherwise may not have given a **** about prior. (Liara, especially) 

Yeah but that codex was freshly created in Inquisition. The prior two games created a different world where it wasn't a problem. It's like they kind of ret-conned the lore to allow it, making it kind of worse actually.

 

Briala and Celene wasn't a problem, prior to Inquisition. Leliana and Marjolaine wasn't a problem. Anders and Karl wasn't a problem. Etc.

[Addictress]

The thing is, what you consider ''a speech'' is what others consider just part of the story. Just where was the speech in Krem's case? When IB tells you off if the PC is a bit too blunt with him? Because that seems like a friend's natural reaction to me. In Dorian's case, when? The sidequest deal with many more issues that Dorian's sexuality, for instance.

 

I also fail to see how dialog options can be a bad thing in an RPG. It's not preachy at all; your character expresses surprise, and this can very well be justified since they come from a non-Orlesian culture regardless of their background.

 

I'm not keen on the idea that writers shouldn't allow the PC to react to events in various ways, or that characters in-story shouldn't react in various ways to what the PC says, in the name of not appearing to make a ''speech''. Or that Dorian should be OK with his dad trying to use blood magic to force him to conform to social standards because if he's not, why, Bioware is forcing their ideas on us.

Is In Hushed Whispers a personal sidequest? If not, then Dorian's confrontation with his father is the only one. 

Krem's dialogue revolves around asking him about his trans status, when he decided, etc....basically any dialogue focusing on that, as far as I'm aware, shouldn't exist. And I'm not speaking for trans, this is just the opinion I hear other trans gamers have in regards to these dialogue options. Just be. Just be trans. Why are we discussing it specifically?

Intentionally writing these lines in the way they are written aren't just an expression of role-play. The role is within a context. Removing that context and displacing it with the context of our 21st century world breaks the fourth wall.

 

I want representation and I agree with the political goals Bioware has. I simply disagree with the methods.

[Kaweebo]

Yeah but that codex was freshly created in Inquisition. The prior two games created a different world where it wasn't a problem. It's like they kind of ret-conned the lore to allow it, making it kind of worse actually.

 

Briala and Celene wasn't a problem, prior to Inquisition. Leliana and Marjolaine wasn't a problem. Anders and Karl wasn't a problem. Etc.

I haven't played Dragon Age: Origins in a long time (and never played DAII) but I don't remember a situation where public opinion on sexuality was really addressed. All we knew was what we learned from certain characters, and of course they'd be fine with it because they are bi/gay, depending on circumstance. And all three of those situations still fit with that codex entry.

 

Briala and Celene's relationship wasn't publicly known anyway and even if it was, it's Orlais and Orlais doesn't care. Leliana and Marjolaine were bards, certainly not public figures. Who would care if they had a sexual relationship? Same thing with Anders and Karl, they aren't nobles or public figures, but average mages living in the Circle, at least until Anders was drafted into the Grey Wardens. To your average Joe Ferelden citizen, these situations are not common knowledge and so the idea of homosexuality being generally frowned upon still works and can be included as a potential response to a largely public dance between two women in the Winter Palace. 

 

The alternative is to pretend that unpopular ideas and opinions don't exist and thus, regardless of the player's possible personal views or even just how they would like to portray the character they're playing, render them unable to make choices and express themselves at any given opportunity. 

[Addictress]

I haven't played Dragon Age: Origins in a long time (and never played DAII) but I don't remember a situation where public opinion on sexuality was really addressed. All we knew was what we learned from certain characters, and of course they'd be fine with it because they are bi/gay, depending on circumstance. And all three of those situations still fit with that codex entry.

 

Briala and Celene's relationship wasn't publicly known anyway and even if it was, it's Orlais and Orlais doesn't care. Leliana and Marjolaine were bards, certainly not public figures. Who would care if they had a sexual relationship? Same thing with Anders and Karl, they aren't nobles or public figures, but average mages living in the Circle, at least until Anders was drafted into the Grey Wardens. To your average Joe Ferelden citizen, these situations are not common knowledge and so the idea of homosexuality being generally frowned upon still works and can be included as a potential response to a largely public dance between two women in the Winter Palace. 

So it wasn't a ret-con, okay, but it was a flexible python explanation to reconcile the pre-Inquisition non-issue-ness with post-Inquisition issue-ness. 

[Kaweebo]

So it wasn't a ret-con, okay, but it was a flexible python explanation to reconcile the pre-Inquisition non-issue-ness with post-Inquisition issue-ness. 

Like I said, more options are never a bad thing, regardless of personal viewpoints. I'd rather Bioware write exceptions than act as if everybody conforms to the same set personality they've given you. *cough*ME3*cough*

[Giantdeathrobot]

Is In Hushed Whispers a personal sidequest? If not, then Dorian's confrontation with his father is the only one. 

Krem's dialogue revolves around asking him about his trans status, when he decided, etc....basically any dialogue focusing on that, as far as I'm aware, shouldn't exist. And I'm not speaking for trans, this is just the opinion I hear other trans gamers have in regards to these dialogue options. Just be. Just be trans. Why are we discussing it specifically?

Intentionally writing these lines in the way they are written aren't just an expression of role-play. The role is within a context. Removing that context and displacing it with the context of our 21st century world breaks the fourth wall.

 

I want representation and I agree with the political goals Bioware has. I simply disagree with the methods.

 

Why are we discussing anything? We do we discuss the Qunari with IB? The Wardens with Blackwall? The mages with Vivienne? The Fade with Solas? Spirits with Cole? It's a topic of conversation with a character. Since this is a video game and dialog is at a premium, said conversations will usually revolve around what makes a character different. The vast majority of your conversations with Dorian are about Tevinter and his project to reform it, why's he talking about that? 

 

I mean, strip the context, and most of the above could be seen as real life issues. The Qun is about despotic, orderly societies, which we have in real life. The Mage debate has often be seen as similar to the gun control one. The Wardens and their modus operandi as secretive watchdogs with little accountability is very much a modern issue, too, come to think of it. Dorian's story of being the black sheep who wants to reform is society is not the most original, but it's a well-established story trope too, with echoes in real life politicians who want to enact sweeping reforms. The context is what makes those stories part of Dragon Age in the first place. Strip the context, and The Count of Monte Cristo is just about some guy going overboard on his revenge. But it's more than that in the end. Context matters.

 

I mean, I'm not blind, I know Bioware has social issues dear at heart and writes accordingly. But I personally don't find it egregious or overly preachy. It's not like they pester you with those things all game long whenever you like it or not. Whereas I could cite a few games who do hammer their points on the player with far less subtlety.

[Addictress]

Why are we discussing anything? We do we discuss the Qunari with IB? The Wardens with Blackwall? The mages with Vivienne? The Fade with Solas? Spirits with Cole? It's a topic of conversation with a character. Since this is a video game and dialog is at a premium, said conversations will usually revolve around what makes a character different. The vast majority of your conversations with Dorian are about Tevinter and his project to reform it, why's he talking about that? 

 

I mean, strip the context, and most of the above could be seen as real life issues. The Qun is about despotic, orderly societies, which we have in real life. The Mage debate has often be seen as similar to the gun control one. The Wardens and their modus operandi as secretive watchdogs with little accountability is very much a modern issue, too, come to think of it. Dorian's story of being the black sheep who wants to reform is society is not the most original, but it's a well-established story trope too, with echoes in real life politicians who want to enact sweeping reforms. The context is what makes those stories part of Dragon Age in the first place. Strip the context, and The Count of Monte Cristo is just about some guy going overboard on his revenge. But it's more than that in the end. Context matters.

 

I mean, I'm not blind, I know Bioware has social issues dear at heart and writes accordingly. But I personally don't find it egregious or overly preachy. It's not like they pester you with those things all game long whenever you like it or not. Whereas I could cite a few games who do hammer their points on the player with far less subtlety.

Mages and Qunari and Wardens all rely on the context of Thedas. They don't exist in the real world. Their form is lore-specific but their themes are not. That's what stories do - they explore shared human themes, which can be anywhere, but in context-specific forms, which is how those themes hit you harder. Not only unique forms but unique stories. 

Simply talking to Dorian in his library - while they are the best Skyhold conversations in the game - are not side quests. I like Dorian's wish to reform Tevinter but I don't see that demonstrated in interactive content. Instead of using his quest time to explore his context-specific character motivations, such as reforming Tevinter or whatever, we focus on his personal family situation? Iron Bull's side quest is quite lore-specific, dealing with the Qunari's offer to ally with the Inquisition. Cassandra's got the whole issue with the Seekers, which is well enough. Solas is - well, he's just a can of Thedas-specific worms, of course. Cole's side quest is awesome. It combines spirit stuff, mage stuff, Solas stuff. We've got Varric and the Deep Roads and red lyrium stuff. Sera .... I don't like Sera and her side quests are awful, but I guess it's classist/nobility stuff...? *sigh* She was awful too, tbh.

Dorian? meeting his dad in a bar addressing his identity. What is that?

I mean Jacob and Miranda had daddy issues too but Jacob's side quest was a huge level involving a ship on a wild planet for ten years, if anything it made us think about marooned space ships, which is cool on a lore front. Miranda's side quests were enormous levels as well, full of mercenary groups and tours of futuristic warehouses and.. I don't know... lore-specific content. 

[RoboticWater]

Krem's dialogue revolves around asking him about his trans status, when he decided, etc....basically any dialogue focusing on that, as far as I'm aware, shouldn't exist. And I'm not speaking for trans, this is just the opinion I hear other trans gamers have in regards to these dialogue options. Just be. Just be trans. Why are we discussing it specifically?

I actually think Krem's dialog isn't such a bad thing. As someone who neither fully understands trans culture nor has access to a trans friend to explain it to me, having a digital entity kinda helps. I understand the sentiment of "just let it be," but I don't think it hurts to let people explore the concept within media, albeit in a not-too-subtle manner.

I'm actually joining a research project about creating a chatterbot (kinda like this one) that captures the essence of a certain author. The point is to let people learn about this man's works and philosophies in a casual manner. I think being able to sit down and just have a conversation with another person can lead to a far more valuable experience than simply reading about it or watching it on a screen.
 

Intentionally writing these lines in the way they are written aren't just an expression of role-play. The role is within a context. Removing that context and displacing it with the context of our 21st century world breaks the fourth wall.

I want representation and I agree with the political goals Bioware has. I simply disagree with the methods.

Obviously, any implementation of an ideology is going sit differently with different people, but I think it's important to note that BioWare could be doing far far worse. Their hearts are in the right place, and I think as BioWare keep going forward, they're going to find the right language to present their political stance in a more natural way. They can't just keep regurgitating the same old dialog about trans people.

 

I think as long as diversity in the media and diversity in the writer's room increases, we'll start hearing more organic stories. It's unfortunate that we have to go through a transitional process, but it is one we apparently need to go through.

[Addictress]

I actually think Krem's dialog isn't such a bad thing. As someone who neither fully understands trans culture nor has access to a trans friend to explain it to me, having a digital entity kinda helps. I understand the sentiment of "just let it be," but I don't think it hurts to let people explore the concept within media, albeit in a not-too-subtle manner.

I'm actually joining a research project about creating a chatterbot (kinda like this one) that captures the essence of a certain author. The point is to let people learn about this man's works and philosophies in a casual manner. I think being able to sit down and just have a conversation with another person can lead to a far more valuable experience than simply reading about it or watching it on a screen.
 

Obviously, any implementation of an ideology is going sit differently with different people, but I think it's important to note that BioWare could be doing far far worse. Their hearts are in the right place, and I think as BioWare keep going forward, they're going to find the right language to present their political stance in a more natural way. They can't keep regurgitating the same old dialog about trans people.

 

I think as long as diversity in the media and diversity in the writer's room increases, we'll start hearing more organic stories. It's unfortunate that we have to go through a transitional process, but it is one we apparently need to go through.

Bioware should copy and paste this as their standard PR reply to everyone for everything. See this is a good PR response.

[Andrew Lucas]

Why do people always have to bring up sexuality everywhere? Jesus Fictional Christ, it's totally not related to the topic, at all. This isn't the Dragon Age's Warriors fest. And it's better to remain that way.

[AlanC9]

Putting words into a game means a lot. Consciously putting any dialogue line in there costs voice acting minutes and is a deliberate expenditure of resources, and part of the game. What does it say? That a character in a world of Thedas where sexuality isn't an issue suddenly finds it an issue. No, since it isn't an issue in Thedas, it breaks the fourth wall and draws the issue from the IRL gamer playing the game. Breaking fourth wall - breaking immersion.

I wouldn't have wasted that wordcount either. But I don't pick dopey lines for my PCs, so this is kind of hypothetical for me.

Note that we had plenty of players protesting here that they weren't allowed to make even more of a fuss about Krem than the game lets the Inquisitor make. Anything Bio does in this area will annoy somebody. In the case of Florianne's dance, that somebody was you.

[Fredward]

Big thank you for the updates.  

 

Am I the only one that groans when she reads that?

More freedom translates in my head to a less linear game, with a weaker story, and way too many zones to explore that will overwhelm the actual plot.

I love DAI, but please please don't let ME:A catch InquisitionZoneAThon-itis.  

 

Yeah. I keep wanting to start a new playthrough but the idea of slogging  through some of those zones again kills me.
 

[Addictress]

Why do people always have to bring up sexuality everywhere? Jesus Fictional Christ, it's totally not related to the topic, at all. This isn't the Dragon Age's Warriors fest. And it's better to remain that way.

Oh boo hoo. I have a thresher maw in my eye.

[AlanC9]

Why do people always have to bring up sexuality everywhere? Jesus Fictional Christ, it's totally not related to the topic, at all. This isn't the Dragon Age's Warriors fest. And it's better to remain that way.

Looking at the thread, I guess it's Chronoid's fault this time. But if he hadn't, somebody else would have. It's like there's a Bioware-specific version of Godwin's Law, except instead of Hitler it's sexuality.

[Lord Bolton]

Why do people always have to bring up sexuality everywhere? Jesus Fictional Christ, it's totally not related to the topic, at all. This isn't the Dragon Age's Warriors fest. And it's better to remain that way.

 

Yeah, I had to check I was in the right thread when I saw that discussion.

We desperately need new information about ME:A... 

 

In the other hand, I don't blame BSN for changing the topic. This whole ME:A update is just a dull PR talk and stuff we already know, so there's really nothing to discuss about.

[shodiswe]

It will be interesting to hear more.

[GeneralXIV]

Why do people always have to bring up sexuality everywhere? Jesus Fictional Christ, it's totally not related to the topic, at all. This isn't the Dragon Age's Warriors fest. And it's better to remain that way.

 

Because sexuality is a huge part of modern life and it's important x

[Gileadan]

Why do people always have to bring up sexuality everywhere? Jesus Fictional Christ, it's totally not related to the topic, at all. This isn't the Dragon Age's Warriors fest. And it's better to remain that way.

Because it's like omfg important. In stories that portray grand conflicts like the DA and ME series, what could be more important than sexuality and who boinked whom? When fireballs and biotic fields explode all around you, what do you want to talk about? Sexuality! As demons overrun the world and reapers exterminate one solar system after the other, what could be more important?

C'mon, man. Don't pretend you didn't know that.

Back in the day when we dug trenches at zero degrees celsius and worried about the sniper on the other side of the mountain range we talked about sexuality.

[Kaweebo]

Because it's like omfg important. In stories that portray grand conflicts like the DA and ME series, what could be more important than sexuality and who boinked whom? When fireballs and biotic fields explode all around you, what do you want to talk about? Sexuality! As demons overrun the world and reapers exterminate one solar system after the other, what could be more important?

C'mon, man. Don't pretend you didn't know that.

Back in the day when we dug trenches at zero degrees celsius and worried about the sniper on the other side of the mountain range we talked about sexuality.

In a setting that involves characters porking each other, I'd expect even a tangential relation to sexuality being a talking point. 

[GeneralXIV]

When there's romance in a computer game, of course sexuality is going to be important.

[Gileadan]

The question I replied to was "why is it brought up everywhere", not "why does it exist as a topic at all". Of course it's important in the context of romance, but that doesn't explain why it keeps popping up so often no matter what the original topic might have been.

[GeneralXIV]

It's because the world loves sex drugs and pop music