7 réponses à ce sujet

[phoray]

I was thinking about how Iron Bull has been re educated before and still, albeit with some doubts and your support, turned away from the Qun. Unlike other Tal Vashoth, he had a network of friends, the Chargers and Inquistion company, to strengthen him as a person who was not lost and could only be seen as a dangerous qunari that, at best, could be used for mercenary work and discarded as soon as the need was filled. 

 

I know there is a relatively stable Tal Vashoth in Dragon Age 2; but he seems more scientific, than anything. "Freedom has been interesting" seems to be his theme.

 

Anyway, I was pondering while reading the Qunari section of The World of Thedas that... this re education is mind breaking. It can take a dislike of the Qun to a new level after it wears off, I would think, if you survive it at all. And it does wear off, otherwise iron Bull wouldn't be able to do what he does. He'd just be a passionate Qun follower.

 

So my theorized timeline is thus:

1. Not quite fitting in. Resenting your role.
2. Taken in for re education.
3. Zeal takes over for a while.
4. It begins to wear off.
5. Now, you resent your role AND you've been tortured into a strength of zeal you reject as false. Mind control. 
6. Angry from the trauma of experience, you leave with that anger. Now you're angry, have no friends, no support, no idea what you're doing and every race thinks you're dangerous.
7. Why wouldn't you go crazy from all that PTSD, outcast situation?

Obviously this doesn't happen to ALL reeducated Qunari or the Qunari would just execute instead of bothering with re education.

But no method has a 100% success rate.

 

So what do you think? Do you think all former Tal Vashoth was seen by the reeducators at least once before they finally left the Qun? Which, in my theory, would lead them towards more crazed violence then less.

[Reznore57]

I don't think Iron Bull was re educated , at least before Inquisition.

Don't know what happens if you keep him loyal to the Qun.

If I remember correctly he wanted to be re educated when he had some nervous breakdown in Seheron , but the Ben Hassrath told him no.

Which was probably a good idea I doubt re education and big trauma would go well together.

 

Otherwise no , I don't think every Tal Vashoth has been seen by some re educator.Possible it had happened to some...but most Tal Vosoth we met , or heard about were all soldiers.

In Seheron , the Qunari have huge problem with Tal Vashoth , but those Tal Vashoth were brought here first by the Qunari themselves.We know the war over there is a huge mess , so those Tal Vashoth are what you'd call deserters.

 

Iron Bull was also a victim of this war.

[phoray]

 

If I remember correctly he wanted to be re educated when he had some nervous breakdown in Seheron , but the Ben Hassrath told him no.

Which was probably a good idea I doubt re education and big trauma would go well together.

 

Oh, really? I guess I missed the part where they turned him down because I my understanding is that it totally happened.

[Reznore57]

Oh, really? I guess I missed the part where they turned him down because I my understanding is that it totally happened.

 

I'm not 100% sure.

Perhaps an Iron Bull fan will see the threat and  would know the answer.

 

I just remember him saying he wanted to be re educated because he thought it would "fix" his problem , and I think he wasn't re educated .He got the job in the South instead.

But again don't take my word on that.

[Sifr]

World of Thedas Vol 2 says that Iron Bull willingly submitted himself for re-education after suffering a mental breakdown.

 

Spoiler

After losing some of his squad to poison (the incident with the baker he mentions), the same poison was later used to murder an entire school of children. An incensed Bull lead an unauthorised retaliatory strike against the Tal-Vashoth stronghold (using the excuse he was "investigating" as a legal loophole), which lead to one of his closest friends being killed, driving him even more off the deep end.

 

When backup arrived to aid the injured survivors, they found Bull covered in blood and wounds, surrounded by dead Tal-Vashoth that had been hacked to pieces. Bull then declared himself unfit for duty, because he no long trusted himself to be safe around civilians, fearing every meal contained poision and every person held a knife behind their back.

 

Bull chose to submit to re-education and reassignment, because he wanted them to either "fix him or destroy him".

 

The reason the Ben-Hassrath sent him to work undercover as a mercenary was because he had the build for the part, the job required mostly observational work, but also allowed him to fight without risk of harming civilians and triggering another incident.

[Gervaise]

I think that Iron Bull asked to be re-educated because he thought he had failed the Qun because he lost control.    However, I don't think they put him through the real re-education process because they recognised that if anything the Qun had failed him (just as Gatt says to them in his report - also in WoT2).   The Ben-Hassrath knew that 2 years was the maximum length of service on Seheron before an agent needed a break, yet they left Bull there for 10 years simply because he seemed to be coping and was highly effective in carrying out his duties.      His mind was too fragile for the re-education process and besides he didn't really need it considering he had voluntarily asked for it.   There was nothing wrong with his loyalty to the Qun and it was no reflection on this in the fact that prolonged exposure to the rigours of Seheron had finally broken him.   So they sent him south as a spy rather than an enforcer.    It was only after another extended period away from the security of Par Vollen that his loyalty to the Qun began to waver.   Essentially he had lived his "legend" so long it was no longer a pretence.   Thus it was easier to persuade him to renounce the Qun and become Tal Vashoth.   Even then, he wasn't happy about the label.    To his mind Tal Vashoth are uncontrollable savages, which is why he thought he had become one back on Seheron when he lost control.

 

If you do not convert Bull to being a Tal Vashoth, then I think when he returns to Par Vollen after the defeat of Corypheus they may well have put him through a period of re-education just to be on the safe side because they were getting worried that he was enjoying his role a bit too much.   To my mind that was why they set up the mission with the Inquisition in the first place; it was as much a test of loyalty of Bull as it was a test of the Inquisitor.      The fact that he sacrifices the Chargers may have meant that they felt re-education was no longer needed.   He had adequately demonstrated his loyalty to the Qun.

 

So in answer to your question OP, I think it is highly unlikely that any Tal Vashoth has previously been re-educated because the whole point of the process is that it breaks the mind into unswerving devotion to the Qun.   It is usually reserved for people born outside the Qun who have been conquered and are resisting conversion to the religion/philosophy of their conquerors.     If the person is too resistant even to re-education, then they fill them full if qamek, which reduces them to a mindless drone.

[phoray]

Wow. Mindless drone is better than just leaving them alone? I remember the comments about people not going to waste but geez.

Thanks for your well thought out reply. I suppose Iron Bull is just exceptional.

[Iakus]

World of Thedas Vol 2 says that Iron Bull willingly submitted himself for re-education after suffering a mental breakdown.

 

Spoiler

After losing some of his squad to poison (the incident with the baker he mentions), the same poison was later used to murder an entire school of children. An incensed Bull lead an unauthorised retaliatory strike against the Tal-Vashoth stronghold (using the excuse he was "investigating" as a legal loophole), which lead to one of his closest friends being killed, driving him even more off the deep end.

 

When backup arrived to aid the injured survivors, they found Bull covered in blood and wounds, surrounded by dead Tal-Vashoth that had been hacked to pieces. Bull then declared himself unfit for duty, because he no long trusted himself to be safe around civilians, fearing every meal contained poision and every person held a knife behind their back.

 

Bull chose to submit to re-education and reassignment, because he wanted them to either "fix him or destroy him".

 

The reason the Ben-Hassrath sent him to work undercover as a mercenary was because he had the build for the part, the job required mostly observational work, but also allowed him to fight without risk of harming civilians and triggering another incident.

Probably also his command of the common speech.

 

IB is by far the most gregarious Qunari or Tal Vashoth we have ever met.  Apparently, they don't speak the common tongue very well:

 

http://dragonage.wik...try:_The_Qunari

 

Few among the Qun's people speak the common tongue, and fewer speak it well. In a culture that strives for mastery, to have only a passable degree of skill is humiliating indeed, and so they often keep quiet among foreigners, out of shame.

 

Burning out Hisraad's brain would be a waste if it could be avoided, as he clearly speaks the language of the bas very well.