37 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabranic]

I am not looking for technical aid at this point, I am simply asking if the following things are possible, (in reasonably sane manner), given the limitations of the toolset:

 

1: Is it technically possible to require a cleric or wizard to have an object in their inventory to recover spells on rest?  If so, is it possible to require several of them, based on spell level?  Example: A different book required to regain each spell level.

 

2: Is it possible to require a bard, cleric, wizard or sorcerer to have an item or items in their inventory to cast spells at all?  If so, is it possible to require several of them, based on spell level? Example: A different pouch of material components that potentially degrades on each casting, per each spell level.

 

 

 

Application: A great deal of the broken nature of spellcasters in 3.5 edition and NWN in particular is the rest system coupled with the utter lack of all of a magic user's limitations.  Traveling spellbooks are inventory intensive, heavy and can be TAKEN.  Without the proper EXPENSIVE material components, memorized spells cannot be cast at all, and the number of uses will be moderated.  (Last I checked, Diamond dust is not particularly inexpensive). 

 

For a campaign I am working on, a portion of it will take place with the players imprisoned, and forcing a very tactical use of spells, rather than the typical "rest'n blast with impunity" that is the standard 3.5 caster would add some pressure and drama.  The idea is to force the players to use makeshift weapons and whatever material components they can scavenge in their escape.

[Tchos]

Yes, it's possible, probably easily enough, using this:

http://neverwinterva...nt-magic-system

 

Application: A great deal of the broken nature of spellcasters in 3.5 edition and NWN in particular is the rest system coupled with the utter lack of all of a magic user's limitations.  Traveling spellbooks are inventory intensive, heavy and can be TAKEN.  Without the proper EXPENSIVE material components, memorized spells cannot be cast at all, and the number of uses will be moderated.

 

This is not a 3.5 edition issue, since material components, sometimes expensive ones, are required in the rulebooks.  It's a problem in the NWN games because they don't adhere to those rules.  The cost of diamond dust and other spell components is explicitly stated in the rules, as well.  When I asked Rasael if this could also be used to ensure that clerics can only cast when they have their holy symbol, he said yes.

[Sabranic]

This makes me very happy.  I've always been a bit irked by how spellcasters in most of the Bioware/Obsidian/Black Isle games have gotten a pass on their limitations. 

 

Already a Vanican caster can replace any class in the game with the right spells prepared.  Been that way largely forever in the video games.  It's better in pen and paper, where the DM can throw a wrench in that sort of behavior.  Oh, how I love doing that.

 

 

I shall begin making spell books by level, holy symbols, and spell component pouches strait away.  I don't think I want to revamp the system as heavily as Rasael did, but the requirements to cast/recover magic are excellent news!!!

[Tchos]

At least The Temple of Elemental Evil included the cost of the material components in spellcasting, though not the components themselves.  It's the only computer 3.5e game that I know of that came close to those rules.

[Sabranic]

I looked at buying that on GOG a few years back, but I read about several game-breaking bugs in the reviews.  In a few of the professional reviews they had mentioned that there was a great game in that box looking to get out, but it just didn't quite make it.  A diamond in the rough perhaps?

[Tchos]

I played it with the Circle of Eight fix pack installed, and I only recall one time that a fight froze up, requiring me to reload.  I don't even know what people mean when they say "game breaking".  Does it break a game if it crashes once, or is a game considered unbroken if you can complete it despite many crashes?  In any case, I completed it with so little trouble I would call it a polished and expertly cut diamond, no roughness about it.  But I can't say how it would be unpatched, because I only played it patched.  There is no other D&D-based game that recreates the rules so completely and accurately in any edition.  You may find the story and character interactions to be a bit simple, but it was after all based on a Gary Gygax module.

[rjshae]

I've played ToEE several times. It only really hung a couple of times, and that was late in the game. If you like D&D and turn-based RPGs, then it's definitely worth playing.

[Lance Botelle]

I am not looking for technical aid at this point, I am simply asking if the following things are possible, (in reasonably sane manner), given the limitations of the toolset:
 
1: Is it technically possible to require a cleric or wizard to have an object in their inventory to recover spells on rest?

{SHAMELESS PLUG MODE }

Yes, and my module, The Scroll does this.
 

If so, is it possible to require several of them, based on spell level?  Example: A different book required to regain each spell level.

Yes, but I am not convinced that this would add to the game. However, I can see the benefits of different level spell books being found, which my module also does when using "Captured Spell Books" system.
 

2: Is it possible to require a bard, cleric, wizard or sorcerer to have an item or items in their inventory to cast spells at all?  If so, is it possible to require several of them, based on spell level? Example: A different pouch of material components that potentially degrades on each casting, per each spell level.

 
Yes, and yes again. However, while I do appreciate the angle you are coming from, experience has taught me that attention to such nuances may be more than most people like to adhere to when playing a CRPG.
 
 

Application: A great deal of the broken nature of spellcasters in 3.5 edition and NWN in particular is the rest system coupled with the utter lack of all of a magic user's limitations.  Traveling spellbooks are inventory intensive, heavy and can be TAKEN.  Without the proper EXPENSIVE material components, memorized spells cannot be cast at all, and the number of uses will be moderated.  (Last I checked, Diamond dust is not particularly inexpensive).

I seriously considered applying the "ingredient system" for spell casting in my own campaign (coming from a PnP D&D background), but decided (after much careful consideration) that potentially "penalising" a spell caster to too great an extent (beyond the book requirement rule) may put the player off actually choosing the class in the first place. i.e. I actually had started to code the need for a Holy Item for a "divine" natured caster and other "ingredients" for all other spells that needed them. However, when it came to early testing, I felt such requirements actually spoiled the game experience with the requirements included.
 

For a campaign I am working on, a portion of it will take place with the players imprisoned, and forcing a very tactical use of spells, rather than the typical "rest'n blast with impunity" that is the standard 3.5 caster would add some pressure and drama.  The idea is to force the players to use makeshift weapons and whatever material components they can scavenge in their escape.

I wholeheartedly agree with you here, and also agree that this issue is one that requires addressing. However, I believe you may be better off trying to come from a different angle than necessarily requiring certain ingredients. For instance, in my own campaign, I have made it that spell casters must allow 8 hours to pass before being able to learn spells again (as well as have access to their spell or holy book). And if time passes, then they also need to have access to food, which if they do not have, then they are unable to rest to regain spells properly.

The Temple of Elemental Evil: As it happens I have just started playing this for the first time myself. For me, I have a love/hate relationship with it. I certainly do like a couple of things like being able to target multiple enemies with a magic missile, and clearly see who will be hit with a fireball, but like others have reported, it is still (in my opinion as well), a rather clunky system to use (and I do have it patched with the Circle of Eight patch). It has crashed a couple of times, but that is not the reason I find it frustrating. For me, I think there are too many options that simply are NOT used because the format is not satisfyingly used to the same degree as one does in PnP .... and is the similar reason why "ingredients" also do not work in my opinion.
 
Anyway, time and experience will help demonstrate the best results either way .. and in the meantime, if you do want to see how I have handled it (coming from a stalwart PnP hard core rules perspective), be sure to check out my module, only released in the last couple of weeks:-

http://neverwinterva...2/module/scroll

[Sabranic]

Thanks everyone for all the feedback!  I truly appreciate the insight from those of you more experience in this than I am.  There is a lot to think about here, and I am going to read through it carefully and give it some mulling - and adapt my aspirations accordingly. 

 

Let me throw pieces around some.

 

Also, I guess that's what I get for letting GoG reviews and recommendations influence me.  I'll buy The TEE the very next time they do a D&D sale on GoG.

[Sabranic]

Having thought a bit about the provided commentary and recommendations, perhaps something a bit more simplistic is in order.  Rather than individual material components for each spell, and required objects for memorizing each spell level, perhaps something more generalized and less... "Spreadsheet RPG-like" would be more practical.

 

So for example, instead of nine different required items to recover magic, (one for each spell level), we generalize it to a single item:

 

Requirements for Vanican casters to recover spells:

- Wizard: Wizard's Traveling Spellbook

- Cleric: Cleric's Holy Symbol

- Druid: Druid's Fetish Pouch

- Paladin: Paladin's Holy Symbol

- Ranger: Ranger's Fetish Pouch

- Spirit Shaman: Spirit Shaman's Ghost Totem

- Favored Soul: Favored Soul's Holy Symbol

 

 

This is easier to program, reduces the player inventory juggling, lets the DM enforce some limitations and helps bring a bit more of the "pen'n paper" feel to the module. 

 

 

On the same note, rather than re-coding the whole spell casting system, painstakingly creating hundreds of material components, and then making casters play Xcel-taekwondo, what if we have one type of generalized material component for each caster type.  Average the overall-price, and each casting increments the quantity of that single item by one.  Sell them in say, stacks of fifty.

Example:

 

Requirements for Vanican casters to cast spells:

- Wizard: Wizard's Spell Component Pouch - 1 per spell over 0 cast.

- Cleric: Cleric's Spell Component Pouch - 1 per spell over 0 cast.

- Druid: Druid's Spell Component Pouch - 1 per spell over 0 cast.

- Bard: Bard's Spell Component Pouch - 1 per spell over 0 cast.

- Sorcerer: Sorcerer's Spell Component Pouch - 1 per spell over 0 cast.

- Ranger: Ranger's Spell Component Pouch - 1 per spell over 0 cast.

- Paladin: Paladin's Spell Component Pouch - 1 per spell over 0 cast.

- Spirit Shaman: Spirit Shaman's Spell Component Pouch - 1 per spell over 0 cast.

- Favored Soul: Favored Soul's Spell Component Pouch - 1 per spell over 0 cast.

 

 

This reduces much of the difficulty of coding/testing/item creation by orders of magnitude, makes "component shopping" less of a hassle, and allows the DM to create some situations where the spell-casters have to conserve their firepower and utility for maximum effect.

 

We can start casters with a stack of components and a spellbook/symbol at the start, (being sure to set them to "pickpocket-able" /evil grin), which will help introduce the concept to players.  We can even add a small bonus, like +1 to concentration for the focus items or something similar.

 

 

Thoughts/opinions?

 

 

Edited Religious Caster Focus items.

[Tchos]

However, while I do appreciate the angle you are coming from, experience has taught me that attention to such nuances may be more than most people like to adhere to when playing a CRPG.
 

I seriously considered applying the "ingredient system" for spell casting in my own campaign (coming from a PnP D&D background), but decided (after much careful consideration) that potentially "penalising" a spell caster to too great an extent (beyond the book requirement rule) may put the player off actually choosing the class in the first place.

 

I want to add a counterpoint here.  I am one who is more attracted to playing as a wizard if it has lore/flavour conditions like spell costs and ingredients.  It's not a penalty, it's part of what it means to be a wizard.  An 8 hour time restriction is good for a rule/fairness perspective, but it does nothing to fire my imagination or inspire feelings of the romance of being a wizard for me.  It's the sort of thing that made me bitterly disappointed when such things were removed from WoW for the sake of player "convenience".

 

I do agree that having a different spellbook for each level seems unnecessary.

 

I also do have a couple of negatives for ToEE -- I hate its radial menu system, and last I checked you can't make the font big enough for easy reading.  But I count it as a favourite, and I wouldn't use the word "hate" for any other aspect of it.  I don't know about anyone else, but I often made use of things like full attacks, bull rushes, and 5-foot steps, not to mention coups de grace.

[Tchos]

Having thought a bit about the provided commentary and recommendations, perhaps something a bit more simplistic is in order.  Rather than individual material components for each spell, and required objects for memorizing each spell level, perhaps something more generalized and less... "Spreadsheet RPG-like" would be more practical.
On the same note, rather than re-coding the whole spell casting system, painstakingly creating hundreds of material components

- Druid: Druid's Orison
- Ranger: Ranger's Orison
 
Requirements for Vanican casters to cast spells:
- Wizard: Wizard's Spell Component Pouch - 1 per spell over 0 cast.

There should not be hundreds of material components.  3.5 has only a handful of spells for wizards (similar for other classes) that require specific components with specific costs.  Anything that does not include a cost is assumed to be in unlimited supply as long as the wizard has the spell component pouch, and the rest must be specifically purchased.  The pouch's contents are not exhausted, aside from the priced items.  The pouch is something that can be taken away to prevent casting, which would be more immediate than taking away the spellbook, since any spells already prepared can still be cast even if you don't have your book, but not if you don't have the components, unless it requires no material components.

 

Is the word "orison" used in the books somewhere?  An orison is another word for a kind of prayer, not an object or relic.

[Sabranic]

I've been researching this for a couple of days, and while reading my encyclopedia magica I noticed they referred to a priest's prayers and religious practices as an orison.  I assumed, given the context it was presented, that an orison was a collection of scripture - something akin to a Bible or a Koran, since a cleric was required to "find" the prayer in order to cast the rare spell - I took it as a need to physically "locate" the object - like a scroll or book. 

 

But it's entirely possible they simply meant it as ritual worship now that you bring it up. So the priest had to "discover" the prayer to his/her god perhaps?  I'll change the object names to avoid looking like a moron.

[Tchos]

It's most certainly a spoken prayer, and not a written one.  The word is related to the same root as "oration", being a kind of spoken word, whereas "scripture" is from the same root as "inscription", being a kind of writing, or "scribe", being a writer.

[Sabranic]

Thanks for the eyes, always appreciated.

 

 

I now have an icon set for traveling spellbooks and component pouches. Threw in a scroll case too.  Of course, the icons are the easy part. 

[-Semper-]

Requirements for Vanican casters to cast spells:

- Wizard: Wizard's Spell Component Pouch - 1 per spell over 0 cast.

- Cleric: Cleric's Spell Component Pouch - 1 per spell over 0 cast.

- Druid: Druid's Spell Component Pouch - 1 per spell over 0 cast.

- Bard: Bard's Spell Component Pouch - 1 per spell over 0 cast.

- Sorcerer: Sorcerer's Spell Component Pouch - 1 per spell over 0 cast.

- Ranger: Ranger's Spell Component Pouch - 1 per spell over 0 cast.

- Paladin: Paladin's Spell Component Pouch - 1 per spell over 0 cast.

- Spirit Shaman: Spirit Shaman's Spell Component Pouch - 1 per spell over 0 cast.

- Favored Soul: Favored Soul's Spell Component Pouch - 1 per spell over 0 cast.

 

this sounds like horrible game design. do you really intend to have a component for every single spell prepared? even if you limit it to one component, like a cleric's holy symbol or a wizard's pouch, it's still bad game design. there's no thinking and no options involved - you either have your item and you can fling spells or, congratulations on that part, you rendered the whole class useless. even in pnp there's only a selection of valuable components to keep track of. mainly to keep powerful spells like resurrection balanced, which by itself is a good idea - but sadly doesn't really work in a crpg environment, where it just leads to save scumming. personally i would still include it to create meaningful choices: do you use your diamond for crafting, reviving your companion or some other person during a quest, or do you just sell it for some precious gold, when it's scarce?

 

besides some components you should restrict casting through interesting resting conditions. first it should not be possible to rest everywhere and anytime. wandering monsters, inns and other safe places are a must. second you should script quests and environments with those conditions in mind. scrap the majority of trash encounters, handcraft interesting ones for a variety of spell uses, give hints what should be expected in dungeons so that spell users are mentally challenged to pick the "right" spells beforehand, and include the element of time. if a party leaves a dungeon to refuel on spells, simply respawn encounters and shuffle them around, oomph up the challenge rating by adding participants to simulate reinforcements, and change quests or fail them based on the time passed to create a living and breathing world.

 

all the above is way more interesting than a simple item without any choices to think about.

[Lance Botelle]

Hi All,

 

I was originally going to do a multi-quote, but that would have been a large amount of text to reference, and so I will try to address everyone's different points raised since my last post in a single post.

 

ORISONS: First, to state that "Orisons" are simply the divine equivalent of arcane "Cantrips". i.e. They are 0th level divine prayers as opposed to 0th level arcane spells. As such, orisons follow the same rules as cantrips: Can be cast without book or ingredients ... and (if I recall correctly) can also be learned without books as they are the very basic spells that can always be learned.

 

SABRANIC: You asked for more thoughts and feedback. I have played PnP D&D since 1981 1st edition, followed by 2nd and 3rd and 3.5 editions. I embraced the move towards NWN\NWN2 computer aided systems, except they (in my opinion) lacked some "core" gaming aspects that needed to be addressed. However, let me give you some "gaming" feedback from my PnP years that may shed some light on my reasoning for you:

 

In the early days, there was no such thing as cleric "spontaneous" casting, but our group (under my DMing) ended up using exactly the same concept even before it had been given this name. i.e. A cleric could sacrifice a spell to empower a healing instead. Why? Because otherwise all a player would do would be to learn every healing spell they could and only rest/learn another spell if they needed it ... and exactly the same thing tends to happen with respect to other spell classes. i.e. Magic Missile for 1st level and Fireball for 3rd level, etc.

 

Basically, in this sense, the system is "broken" ... but that is how it was designed to work, and does work better in a PNP environment where resting and events are more controlled. However, in a CRPG environment, this kind of system shows its flaws more readily.

 

Now, I do have total sympathy for people like Tchos who may have the imagination and time to work with such a system, but I am also a pragmatist who recognises the pointlessness of over-exacting certain aspects of a magic system because that is how it was originally designed.

 

To continue my point, in our own PnP group, we eventually came up with the magical "Ingredients Pouch", which allowed the spontaneous creation of spell components for spells that required them (apart from anything too valuable, like diamonds) to help alleviate the issue of having to have certain items just to be able to cast the spell, which (and here is the point) ... that they may have the opportunity to cast at some time in the game.

 

The point being, players are reluctant enough to "learn" other spells that they *may* find a use for, when they may as well learn a spell like Magic Missile, which they are almost certainly going to use. Why take time to learn "Magic Aura" rather than "Magic Missile", unless there is a specific situation when and where you need to? And now if the player decides that this would be a good time to have and use such a spell, the game either has to take a step to one side and do something else (if it is that flexible) or grind to a halt as the wizard rests and learns a whole new set of spells just to cast Magic Aura in this unusual situation ... and then, the wizard may need to take more rest just to restock on their Magic Missile again (especially at low level).

 

The bottom line, the system is (if anything) already too inflexible to be fun (or practical) to play at the same pace as the rest of the game. And for this reason, is also why our own PnP sessions ended up developing a token system, which actually meant players did not even have to stipulate which spells they learned at the start of the day, simply because of this "wrong spell/stop/rest/learn correct spell" process that spoiled the natural flow of the game. Add to that the need for ingredients as well, and the problem just felt magnified.

 

Now, that all said, I do believe there is room for a combination of systems that does work well: The main problem (as I see it) is the issue related to role-play type spells, which rarely get used in any given session. I believe these are what a DM (or builder) should make the player work for as you (and perhaps Tchos?) put it. I certainly DO see the *fun* in this aspect of making a player work for their "spell". (I have an example in my module if you get the chance to play it.) However, those spells or prayers that are used regularly should not be reworked to add further difficulties to use them in the first place. (As an aside, you will probably find that most of the spells that require ingredients are usually the role-play types anyway.)

 

Furthermore, to help encourage the player to actually memorize different spells, I have also developed another system (which I have brought over to NWN, and works quite well), which is a kind of "spontaneous casting" system for wizards .... but only for the more readily memorised spells like Magic Missile. e.g. The system is called "Arcaene Lore" which comprises of spell scrolls that work with ancient power. In practice, if a wizard class PC found an Arcaene Lore spell (of Magic Missile), then they can quick slot it and use it to cast a Magic Missile, BUT only if they have a first level spell memorized to empower it.

 

Now, by such a system (and some other spells like this), it frees the player to consider memorizing some other spells that they may not have considered to do so before, due to lack of confidence to do so. e.g. If they can always cast Magic Missile from the Arcaene Lore scroll, then they may as well consider memorizing some other first level spells instead.

 

FLEXIBILITY: The great advantage of such a system is giving the player flexibility, but also within limitations based upon their abilities in the first place and the environment conditions in which they can regain their powers. By all means keep the "ingredients" for "spells" outside the normal ones a PC can learn, and perhaps stress the PC via their environment rather than their spell abilities due to lack of ingredients (apart from the very basic "tools of the trade" such as the "books" in the first place, which are not unlike the fighter's weapon! No weapon, limited combat! No book, limited spells!)

 

There is more I can probably add, but that may help give some background guidance for now (from *many* years of experience).

 

Cheers,

Lance.

[Tchos]

I don't know what level we're talking about here, but in my pen & paper groups, I usually play a Vancian caster of some kind, and when I want to diversify my daily prepared spell selection beyond my available spell slots, I start crafting wands or scribing scrolls, neither of which require additional components to cast once they're made.

 

It's impressive that you came up with spell component pouches and sorcerer-like classes before they became official in 3.x, though, Lance.

 

There's another gameplay element that I enjoy from previous editions, such as not being able to level up just anywhere, but actually going to a training hall and paying to train for your new abilities once you've gotten enough experience.  I enjoy that in the Gold Box games, and in games like Might and Magic 6.  I like it both as a strategic game mechanic and the imagery it conjures up, and the feeling of reward after a long dungeon and getting back to town.  I know many people consider it to just be inconvenient and a nuisance, but to me it adds to the game.  Same with having to find or purchase or quest for new spells rather than just choosing from a list at level up.

[Sabranic]

Some great discussion here, thanks again for everyone's thoughts, let me read and consider options a bit more. 

[Lance Botelle]

I don't know what level we're talking about here, but in my pen & paper groups, I usually play a Vancian caster of some kind, and when I want to diversify my daily prepared spell selection beyond my available spell slots, I start crafting wands or scribing scrolls, neither of which require additional components to cast once they're made.

Yes, I agree that this is a very good way to diversify spell availability, and is something I really have tried to encourage in my module ... especially by making the process easier and more cost effective. Unfortunately, crafting did not take off that well in PnP, as it was something added with later editions, and by then, many styles of play (from earlier editions) had not encouraged that style of design and play. I am hoping that the "ease" of applying such in a CRPG module will serve to encourage that style of play again.
 

It's impressive that you came up with spell component pouches and sorcerer-like classes before they became official in 3.x, though, Lance.

We used to laugh that the official publishers must have been spying on our gaming sessions, as we almost always had a system in place that preceded the official changes brought out in the following editions. There again, we were really into the game in a big way and had our finger right on the pulse, so I guess we were quite close to the "problems" in the early editions and the changes we made we felt were quite necessary, and so not unexpected by the time the official versions became printed.
 

There's another gameplay element that I enjoy from previous editions, such as not being able to level up just anywhere, but actually going to a training hall and paying to train for your new abilities once you've gotten enough experience.  I enjoy that in the Gold Box games, and in games like Might and Magic 6.  I like it both as a strategic game mechanic and the imagery it conjures up, and the feeling of reward after a long dungeon and getting back to town.  I know many people consider it to just be inconvenient and a nuisance, but to me it adds to the game.  Same with having to find or purchase or quest for new spells rather than just choosing from a list at level up.

Again, we had a system for this too ... We had it that you always got the HP, level ability and saving throw updates automatically, but feats and skills etc you had to find a trainer (as you say). I still like/prefer this idea .. and am also pleased to see it used in Gothic like games, as well as those you mention. Spells I allowed one or two at level up (as if the PC had been studying during their rest times), but the majority had to be found in spell books ... hence my Captured Spell Book system that I wrote for NWN to encapsulate that same idea.

I may still look at adding trainers (for feats and skills) later on, but for now, have added this for any "new feats" that can be gained over and above the "automatic ones". That may be the best solution for now, so it means the players who want to work a bit harder for a certain skill, get rewarded for such. That is an approach I tend to work to now.
 

Some great discussion here, thanks again for everyone's thoughts, let me read and consider options a bit more.

Sabranic: I encourage you to take a look at my module. If you are old school, you may like some of the way I have implemented some changes for spell casters. If you do download and check it out, be sure to give me some feedback ... or ask questions why I did it a certain way.

Cheers,
Lance.

[Sabranic]

this sounds like horrible game design. do you really intend to have a component for every single spell prepared? even if you limit it to one component, like a cleric's holy symbol or a wizard's pouch, it's still bad game design. there's no thinking and no options involved - you either have your item and you can fling spells or, congratulations on that part, you rendered the whole class useless. even in pnp there's only a selection of valuable components to keep track of. mainly to keep powerful spells like resurrection balanced, which by itself is a good idea - but sadly doesn't really work in a crpg environment, where it just leads to save scumming. personally i would still include it to create meaningful choices: do you use your diamond for crafting, reviving your companion or some other person during a quest, or do you just sell it for some precious gold, when it's scarce?

 

besides some components you should restrict casting through interesting resting conditions. first it should not be possible to rest everywhere and anytime. wandering monsters, inns and other safe places are a must. second you should script quests and environments with those conditions in mind. scrap the majority of trash encounters, handcraft interesting ones for a variety of spell uses, give hints what should be expected in dungeons so that spell users are mentally challenged to pick the "right" spells beforehand, and include the element of time. if a party leaves a dungeon to refuel on spells, simply respawn encounters and shuffle them around, oomph up the challenge rating by adding participants to simulate reinforcements, and change quests or fail them based on the time passed to create a living and breathing world.

 

all the above is way more interesting than a simple item without any choices to think about.

 

We had mulled it over, but I think we've moved beyond that, for logistical considerations if nothing else. 

 

The initial concept - we are not even to the planning phase here, let alone implementation - was one object, (example: spell-book), for each level of spell to be memorized would have been required in the character's inventory.  Additionally, we were imagining a large list of various spell components which would be necessary to actually  cast spells - but I stress again, we are simply asking about the feasibility of the notion and engaging in a mental exercise and some debate over the merits of the system.  Nothing has been coded or even pseudo coded. 

 

I am thinking there has to be a way to split the baby somewhere in all of this.  I do think people have made some exceptional points and the initial system we were - again, conceptualizing - was a bit cumbersome.  That said, I am of the belief we can figure out something which still accomplishes a bit of resource management and drama while not becoming class-destroying-ly burdensome. 

 

As to the point of save scumming, that in my mind falls into the same place as cheating - each player has the freedom to do what they want with their game, and we can't really control that - and trying will just degrade the experience for everybody. (Much like a DRM, pirates are gonna pirate and cheaters are gonna cheat).  Nothing is gained by worrying about either - in my opinion.  Some people, for example, only like to play MotB with the Spirit Eater gauge disabled.  Some folks use the console to give themselves the debug items that liquefy enemies in a swing.  Others cheat their XP above the module's recommenced level.  That's up to them, and if they are enjoying themselves, it's their game and their business.  (I take a dimmer view of cheating in a multiplayer game, since at that point, the cheater is impacting more than their own user experience).

 

I like that you mentioned restrictions on resting, and we in fact have placed numerous restrictions on when and where a party can rest.  Dungeons in the campaign are virtually impossible to rest in, the player will have to either return to the surface, sleep in an INN, their personal house, rest in one of the "breather" rooms that we added in the lower levels fo the larger dungeons, or use the recall stone to teleport to a Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion - a recall stone that can only be used a total of nine times during the entire 40+ hour campaign.  We also require a player to pack rations to rest, and maintain a  measure of water to avoid dying of thirst.

 

We have no random encounters in any of the high level content, and don't plan on any.  The randomized stuff that does exist is for low level players - intended for people using the housing zone as a "hang-out," between gaming sessions - and is all non-plotline.  The campaign is built to exist as a sort of hang-out for any character of any level in-between modules, and all of that can be done without activating the main story line.

 

Anything that is a part of the story is very high level, and custom tailored to a plot element in the narrative.   A party won't randomly encounter a dragon - if you run into one, it's part of the plot, and you will have options that lead to a scripted and extremely lethal fight, or you can, if you invested in intimidate, diplomacy, bluff, (and other non-combat skills), talk your way out of the situation.  (And by "invest" we don't me token dump points.  If you are going to talk an angry black dragon - who was kicked out of his lair by a mated pair of Bronze Dragons - into anything other than violence, you better be real slick, insanely persuasive, or really damn intimidating.... or rich.  Rich works too.  Sometimes...).

 

For example, take our growing bestiary:  http://forum.bioware.../#entry20104127

 

Notice how almost every monster has some weakness that needs to be exploited to win without massively overtaxing party resources?  This is deliberate.  It helps to balance classes somewhat, and gives every NPC places to shine and some places where they will be very near useless.  (This is why we have 18 NPC's that the player gets to fully customize - they will need a wide array of skills to survive this adventure - making one character able to excel everywhere will be impossible without cheating). 

 

The campaign is intended for character levels 20-30, and the purpose is to provide an extreme level of challenge and difficulty - one worthy of a player which stood down gods in Mask of the Betrayer.  This is why the battles are particularly merciless, the main antagonist is a magnificent bastard and master of Xanatos Speed Chess, (able to keep pace with a post MotB Knight Captain at every turn), and we are paying attention to resource management. 

 

The question here is to what degree we want to push it.  And that's why we are having this discussion, and in my opinion, it's been a extremely valuable one, and I am looking forward to hearing more of what people have to contribute.

 

Thanks everyone!

[Sabranic]

We downloaded The Scroll on the 8th, and we'll absolutely take a look at your system.  Thanks for all the feedback so far.

[Tchos]

Unfortunately, crafting did not take off that well in PnP, as it was something added with later editions, and by then, many styles of play (from earlier editions) had not encouraged that style of design and play.

 

Sabranic: I encourage you to take a look at my module. If you are old school, you may like some of the way I have implemented some changes for spell casters.

 

Most of my pen & paper experience has been with 3.5 and Pathfinder, with only some minimal experience with 1st and 2nd edition before that, and afterward whatever I experienced in the CRPG versions, so I began with crafting, and embraced it.  I don't know how well it took off in the general populace, but in my main group I crafted for myself and others, and sometimes it led to some fun roleplaying, like when another player paid me for a magic bag, and the crafting happened to fail spectacularly, leaving the other player with a vicious biting bag that we tried to pawn off on some NPCs, with hilarious results.

 

You may also like something I did in my module, where the temple charges the pen & paper material fees for resurrection and restoration spells, in exchange for a detailed narrative and description of the ceremonies involved.  It's optional for the player, though, since I also provided scrolls for characters "if they have a way to perform the spell without materials", like being in NWN2.

[Lance Botelle]

Most of my pen & paper experience has been with 3.5 and Pathfinder, with only some minimal experience with 1st and 2nd edition before that, and afterward whatever I experienced in the CRPG versions, so I began with crafting, and embraced it.  I don't know how well it took off in the general populace, but in my main group I crafted for myself and others, and sometimes it led to some fun roleplaying, like when another player paid me for a magic bag, and the crafting happened to fail spectacularly, leaving the other player with a vicious biting bag that we tried to pawn off on some NPCs, with hilarious results.

Sounds a blast! This is why PnP can never really be replaced .... We had similar ad-hoc role-playing incidents (not necessarily with crafting) that could spiral into most unusual events, which I, as DM, could respond to. This is practically impossible to code for.

Also, in PnP, such relationships between players helps to encourage such play, and so the system takes on a greater reason to use and work with. In a CRPG, this just does not happen, as it's a much more immediate environment, which by its nature, demands a different approach. Unfortunately, this means catering for such play (even if a single player within a single player environment did have such patience to do), it is far down on the list of priorities compared to other systems and plot required. I would even venture to add, that it can even detract from the game if a player was forced to focus on such specifics before being able to get on with the story. i.e. In PnP, a good DM can make such a crafting system (or any such slower PnP system) and make it part of the story where all can appreciate the time involved. In a CRPG, you need to be able to offer a system where the results count, but not at the expense of prolonged activity that detracts from the ultimate goal. That is why I say it is better for a builder to include such events (like ingredients or more involved crafting) only if they can make it more integrated into the story. (See my module with respect to the PC having to acquire Divine Rods for a certain ritual/spell.)
 

You may also like something I did in my module, where the temple charges the pen & paper material fees for resurrection and restoration spells, in exchange for a detailed narrative and description of the ceremonies involved.  It's optional for the player, though, since I also provided scrolls for characters "if they have a way to perform the spell without materials", like being in NWN2.

Yes. This is a good way to ensure death (and the cost to raise again) is more "involved" than the standard. However, I would also add a word of caution when it comes to ideas on paper and how they work in practice. I had an idea where a PC required a certain item to do crafting in the field (as well as the Enchanter's Satchel). In the end, I felt having the need for this additional item actually frustrated me while playing ... and I thought it was a good idea! I pulled that bit of code before final release because of that .... No other tester mentioned it, but I disliked the way it played (impinged) on the otherwise already quite involved crafting system (which as you know, I have gone out of my way to simplify as much as possible). Also, bear in mind that some people may prefer a more straightforward "system" ... it depends on your target audience of course ... hence your scroll option is ideal!

SIMPLIFICATION: Let me quickly add that by making things "simpler" to use, I do not mean "dumbing down". i.e. The rules and final results are pretty much the same, but the difference is in the application of those rules via an easier to use system. The obstacle to overcome is burdening the player with too many steps to achieve a result, while acknowledging those steps which should be present in some way (and not dumbed down).

Cheers,
Lance.

[Tchos]

Yes. This is a good way to ensure death (and the cost to raise again) is more "involved" than the standard. However, I would also add a word of caution when it comes to ideas on paper and how they work in practice. I had an idea where a PC required a certain item to do crafting in the field (as well as the Enchanter's Satchel). In the end, I felt having the need for this additional item actually frustrated me while playing ... and I thought it was a good idea!

SIMPLIFICATION: Let me quickly add that by making things "simpler" to use, I do not mean "dumbing down". i.e. The rules and final results are pretty much the same, but the difference is in the application of those rules via an easier to use system. The obstacle to overcome is burdening the player with too many steps to achieve a result, while acknowledging those steps which should be present in some way (and not dumbed down).

 

Don't worry.  The things that I implement are things that I actually enjoy playing, not things that I just think sound good on paper.

 

"Dumbing down" is always subjective, because it amounts to someone removing a feature that the remover considered unnecessary and burdensome, and an individual player did not.  For instance, in NWN2 it is necessary to have a healer's kit in your inventory to use the Heal skill, and the kit is consumed on use.  However, it is not necessary in NWN2 to have a set of thieves' tools in your inventory to pick a lock, even though the tools provide the same kind of bonuses that the kits do and are also consumed on use.  Personally, I would be on the side that would prefer a set of thieves' tools to be required to pick a lock, as it is in pen & paper and in other computer games (and I would not make them consumed on use, but they could wear out after many uses).  So a person like me, if they were so inclined as to use the phrase "dumbed down" would use it to refer to removals of requirements like those tools, and spell material components.  Those who considered them to be a nothing but a burden could call them "simplified".