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[SKAR]

And what?

Some roleplay their Shepard that way. some want to make him a soldier that is sad but still make the tough decisions. And some want to make a Shepard that crack under the pressure.

That is what most people was annoyed about. They lost the option to roleplay.

Everyone has a Breaking point, even the great commander Shepard.

[Grieving Natashina]

Shepard already did see people die though. Plenty of times. The ME3 prologue wasn't the first time he saw someone dying.

To be fair, it was the first time s/he saw a human child die on Earth due to the Reapers. So one dream about not being able to save the kid was merited I think. I thought that this was a kid that s/he at least watched for the duration of the time on Earth. S/he might have known the kids parents for all we know.

However, I would think that s/he would have had more PSTD dreams about leaving Ash/Kaidan behind and being forced to watch themselves make that call again. Even throw in an image of the dialogue wheel pointing towards the decision to kill one of them. Or a slow motion black and white image of Mordin going up the elevator. The dreams were a great idea, but as other posters pointed out, the child continuously being the star of those dreams doesn't gel with a Ruthless/Earthborn or even a Sole Surivior/Colonist very well. Meaning that I think watching their friends die in their dreams would haunt them more than a single child dying.

The ME team did a good job recreating the sounds and colors of PSTD dreams, at least according to former military friends of mine that served overseas. However, they beat that metaphor for the dead child being a symbol of humanity's (and the galaxy's) loss of innocence into a pulp. I'm fine with the hero showing signs of being shell shocked by that point in a trilogy, but I'd like to think they'd grieve more for their lost friends than some random child. <shrug>

[SKAR]

To be fair, it was the first time s/he saw a human child die on Earth due to the Reapers. So one dream about not being able to save the kid was merited I think. I thought that this was a kid that s/he at least watched for the duration of the time on Earth. S/he might have known the kids parents for all we know.

However, I would think that s/he would have had more PSTD dreams about leaving Ash/Kaidan behind and being forced to watch themselves make that call again. Even throw in an image of the dialogue wheel pointing towards the decision to kill one of them. Or a slow motion black and white image of Mordin going up the elevator. The dreams were a great idea, but as other posters pointed out, the child continouslly being the star of those dreams doesn't gel with a Ruthless/Earthborn or even a Sole Surivior/Colonist very well. Meaning that I think watching their friends die in their dreams would haunt them more than a single child dying.

The ME team did a good job recreating the sounds and colors of PSTD dreams, at least according to former military friends of mine that served overseas. However, they beat that metaphor for the dead child being a symbol of humanity's (and the galaxy's) loss of innocence into a pulp. I'm fine with the hero showing signs of being shell shocked by that point in a trilogy, but I'd like to think they'd grieve more for their lost friends than some random child. <shrul

It was the fact that he couldn't save the child.

[Killroy]

One aspect I felt missing in Mass Effect 2 was the fact that Shepard was completely OK with being dead! That was a hell of a trauma, no matter what type of Shepard you made (badass, paragade, renegon, psycopath, goodie...)

Well they didn't even have the courage of their convictions to make it a resurrection. Partway into ME2 they stop saying they brought him back from the dead and start saying he was "mostly dead," "almost dead" and "practically dead" even though he was a straight up corpse that Cerberus retrieved weeks after death iirc.

she was like 108 which is probably 28 in Asari years. you see people you care about die countless times and tell me if that doesn't affect you. If it doesn't you may want to get a psychological evaluation.

Asari live for 1000 years, so 108 would be closer to 11 years for a human if that's the metric. And Liara says in ME1 that she's basically still a child in her culture.
And Shepard didn't know that kid. He knew Ash and Kaidan but didn't fall apart when one of them died. He knew Mordin, Thane, Grunt, Garrus, Tali, Jacob, Jack, Legion, Miranda, Kasumi, Samara, and Zaeed but didn't fall to pieces when/if they died. Because cracking under pressure isn't what Shepard does. Shepard doesn't need to have Liara hold his hand through tough times. Shepard doesn't freeze under pressure.

[Grieving Natashina]

It was the fact that he couldn't save the child.

S/he can't stop Mordin either. S/he couldn't save both Ash and Kaidan, and that obviously affects them. Again, I can see the kid being the star in a PSTD dream for sure. However, s/he knew Mordin for longer and he blows up in front of her very eyes. After s/he had the experience of dodging a Reaper on foot. The first dream should have been the child, then Ash or Kaidan, then maybe shooting Mordin or watching Moridin ride up the elevator. Something like that. Of course a child dying in front of a solider's eyes will mess them up. No doubt. Still, I don't see why the little boy would be the only star in a PTSD dream by ME3.

[SKAR]

Well they didn't even have the courage of their convictions to make it a resurrection. Partway into ME2 they stop saying they brought him back from the dead and start saying he was "mostly dead," "almost dead" and "practically dead" even though he was a straight up corpse that Cerberus retrieved weeks after death iirc.


Asari live for 1000 years, so 108 would be closer to 11 years for a human if that's the metric. And Liara says in ME1 that she's basically still a child in her culture.
And Shepard didn't know that kid. He knew Ash and Kaidan but didn't fall apart when one of them died. He knew Mordin, Thane, Grunt, Garrus, Tali, Jacob, Jack, Legion, Miranda, Kasumi, Samara, and Zaeed but didn't fall to pieces when/if they died. Because cracking under pressure isn't what Shepard does. Shepard doesn't need to have Liara hold his hand through tough times. Shepard doesn't freeze under pressure.

well she sure as hell didn't look 11, sure as hell didn't talk like one either. oh s#!t does that make my Shepard a Chester molester? Shepard doesn't crack under pressure, keep telling yourself that. Although he might with the stat rape charges.

[Prince Enigmatic]

Well they didn't even have the courage of their convictions to make it a resurrection. Partway into ME2 they stop saying they brought him back from the dead and start saying he was "mostly dead," "almost dead" and "practically dead" even though he was a straight up corpse that Cerberus retrieved weeks after death iirc.


Asari live for 1000 years, so 108 would be closer to 11 years for a human if that's the metric. And Liara says in ME1 that she's basically still a child in her culture.
And Shepard didn't know that kid. He knew Ash and Kaidan but didn't fall apart when one of them died. He knew Mordin, Thane, Grunt, Garrus, Tali, Jacob, Jack, Legion, Miranda, Kasumi, Samara, and Zaeed but didn't fall to pieces when/if they died. Because cracking under pressure isn't what Shepard does. Shepard doesn't need to have Liara hold his hand through tough times. Shepard doesn't freeze under pressure.

 

Just curious, would you have preferred it if, depending on what your origin or psych profile was, after losing either Ash or Kaidan, or generally just following any moment in the series that may trigger an emotional response from Shepard in ME1 and ME2, would you have been ok with it?

 

I can get taking issue with ME3's handling of Shepard because of how there was no realistic reactions to death in ME1 and ME2 and its sudden appearance in ME3 being forced. 

[AlanC9]

Well, not letting Shepard have problems in the earlier games could also be described as a problem with those games. I'm not fond of saying that designers shouldn't fix stuff that an earlier game got wrong.

As a theoretical design matter, how should Bio handle a situation like this, where two PCs could have very different emotional baselines in a situation? Maybe something like the way DAI would sometimes give you a tooltip on the wheel telling you what an option would lead to?

[Han Shot First]

Asari reach adulthood somewhere between 40 and 60 years.

 

Liara started working as an archaeologist when she was 56, Morinth left home in her 40s, and the an Asari on Illium that can be overheard saying that she's 60 and finally moving out of her parents' house. Given that Samara adds that Morinth was very young when she left home, she might have been the equivalent of a teenage runaway, and the Illium Asari using the word 'finally' might indicate she lived with her family for longer than is usual.

 

Liara also doesn't say that she's a child. That's a misquote from fans. She says she's barely considered more than a child. In other words, she's saying she's a young adult. How many children have advanced university degrees and have been working as a scientist for years?

[Killroy]

Just curious, would you have preferred it if, depending on what your origin or psych profile was, after losing either Ash or Kaidan, or generally just following any moment in the series that may trigger an emotional response from Shepard in ME1 and ME2, would you have been ok with it?
 
I can get taking issue with ME3's handling of Shepard because of how there was no realistic reactions to death in ME1 and ME2 and its sudden appearance in ME3 being forced.

No, I want the choice. You can have a Spacer War Hero who's a sociopathic renegade, so even the "softest" of backgrounds shouldn't be used to determine future emotions without the player's consent. They already implemented an emotional response system in Dragon Age 2 for Hawke, complete with icons signaling grief, anger, happiness, etc.

[The Elder King]

Shepard having been through traumatic events in the past wouldn't realistically make him or her more immune to PTSD or survivor's guilt. Nor does the most traumatic event in a person's life have to be the trigger for symptoms. That's just not how it works. In fact the opposite is true...the more psychological trauma in a person's life, the more susceptible they are to it.

 

The handling of Shepard's survivor's guilt may have been a bit clunky ay times, but any argument that Shepard was too tough, or too battle-hardened to be affected by PTSD, has no basis in reality.

 

I didn't mean that he was too though or battle hardened to be affected. I'm saying that ME3 forces every Shepard to be affected by that single death, without seemingly care for the death of his loved one before and during the game. 

To be fair, it was the first time s/he saw a human child die on Earth due to the Reapers. So one dream about not being able to save the kid was merited I think. I thought that this was a kid that s/he at least watched for the duration of the time on Earth. S/he might have known the kids parents for all we know.

However, I would think that s/he would have had more PSTD dreams about leaving Ash/Kaidan behind and being forced to watch themselves make that call again. Even throw in an image of the dialogue wheel pointing towards the decision to kill one of them. Or a slow motion black and white image of Mordin going up the elevator. The dreams were a great idea, but as other posters pointed out, the child continuously being the star of those dreams doesn't gel with a Ruthless/Earthborn or even a Sole Surivior/Colonist very well. Meaning that I think watching their friends die in their dreams would haunt them more than a single child dying.

The ME team did a good job recreating the sounds and colors of PSTD dreams, at least according to former military friends of mine that served overseas. However, they beat that metaphor for the dead child being a symbol of humanity's (and the galaxy's) loss of innocence into a pulp. I'm fine with the hero showing signs of being shell shocked by that point in a trilogy, but I'd like to think they'd grieve more for their lost friends than some random child. <shrug>

Indeed, and completely agree.

While I still think that leaving the freedom to the player if they want Shepard to react and be affected by those situation, I actually like the idea of my characters having some points through their story when they are affected by certain events or even 'broke' a little. I roleplay my characters that way regardless of the game actually showing it. It's just that being forced to care too much about that particular event, while there were other situation in thr trilogy where Shepard could be affected, is wrong.

[Shechinah]

Liara also doesn't say that she's a child. That's a misquote from fans. She says she's barely considered more than a child. In other words, she's saying she's a young adult. How many children have advanced university degrees and have been working as a scientist for years?

 

I think she was also saying that in regards to, I believe, how older asari dismiss her scientific theories because her age makes them see her as little more than a child in comparison to their age. I'll have to dig up the quote to be certain.

[Killroy]

Well, not letting Shepard have problems in the earlier games could also be described as a problem with those games. I'm not fond of saying that designers shouldn't fix stuff that an earlier game got wrong.

As a theoretical design matter, how should Bio handle a situation like this, where two PCs could have very different emotional baselines in a situation? Maybe something like the way DAI would sometimes give you a tooltip on the wheel telling you what an option would lead to?

I might be remembering it wrong, but weren't we presented with 3 different emotional responses in DA2 for Hawke to deal with the death of his/her mother? Anger, sorrow and stoicism?

[Lezio]

Shepard suffered PTSD after watching not-yet-Casper die because the plot demanded it, and the plot demanded it cuz Bioware couldn't even go through the hassle of having Casper take differents appearences based on different Shepards' traumas (Mordin's, or Kaidan's, or Ashley's, or Thane's, Miranda's ecc ecc)

 

Plus, the nightmare landscape looked very artistic, so it would have been a shame not to have it in the game

 

Going back on topic, personally, seeing ME3 and inquisition, i learned that the only things that BW doesn't boost up/lie about in the alpha versions of their games is the graphics so.... eh

[Hammerstorm]

Everyone has a Breaking point, even the great commander Shepard.

 

Why? This isn't a real life simulator. This is a game where giant killer robot cuttlefishes tries to kill all intelligent life every 50 000 years.

It is all a matter of option.

 

And there is people that don't break in real life too.

[SKAR]

Why? This isn't a real life simulator. This is a game where giant killer robot cuttlefishes tries to kill all intelligent life every 50 000 years.
It is all a matter of option.

And there is people that don't break in real life too.

Keep telling yourself that. We are HUMAN. We have human feelings, love, hate, sadness. Everyone that suffers loss, sure maybe they don't break, but they aren't the same. Everyone has a Breaking point. I'll give you a scenario, Mom and Dad are driving on the highway, some guy rams them off the road. How would you feel?

[The Elder King]

Keep telling yourself that. We are HUMAN. We have human feelings, love, hate, sadness. Everyone that suffers loss, sure maybe they don't break, but they aren't the same. Everyone has a Breaking point.

The breaking point doesn't have to be the same for everyone though.

[SKAR]

The breaking point doesn't have to be the same for everyone though.

Doesn't matter. Trauma affects all. The only exception would be a sociopath.

[Shechinah]

I've found the dialogue;
 
Shepard: "Just how old are you, exactly?"
Liara: "I hate to admit it, but I am only a hundred and six."
Ashley: "Damn! I hope I look that good when I'm your age."
Liara: "A century may look like a long time to a short-lived species like yours. But among the asari, I am barely considered more than a child. That is why my research has not recieved the attention it deserves. Because of my youth, other asari scholars tend to dismiss my theories on what happened to the Protheans."
 
It should be noted, however, that Liara does seem to be in the Maiden stage and so can be an adult. It is not helped by how asari's aging can be confusing given that it can happen through self-determination rather than solely through an age-caused change;
 
"However, it should be noted that each stage can be started whenever an asari feels that she has reached the correct level of maturity. While each stage of life is marked by strong biological tendencies, individuals do make unexpected life choices. For example, there are Maidens who stay close to home rather than explore, Matrons who would rather work than build a family, and Matriarchs who have no interest in community affairs." - Asari (The Wikipedia)
 
It should also be noted that Liara is not always the most reliable source on her race as her information sometimes seems at odds with other sources and, well, general observations. An example of this is how she claims that male and female have no real meaning to them despite the fact that the asari is considered a mono-gender race, refer to each other by feminine pronouns only, primarily have feminine titles such as huntress, matriarch and also usually refer to their offspring as daughters.

 

Oh and they were initially created to fill the trope of Green-Skinned Space Babe as stated in the Art of Mass Effect according to the Wikipedia.

[The Elder King]

Doesn't matter. Trauma affects all. The only exception would be a sociopath.

It does matter. Not everyone sees the same event as traumatic, or in the same degree, so the reactions are different. Not everyone react to the same even in the same way.

[Dalinne]

I didn't mean that he was too though or battle hardened to be affected. I'm saying that ME3 forces every Shepard to be affected by that single death, without seemingly care for the death of his loved one before and during the game. 

Indeed, and completely agree.

 

 

I think that child death is merely a catalyst (not pun intended).

I would rather have seen variation of that dream (not only voices of the dead squad, that was a nice touch), I agree with that. I would have loved to see the catalyst of those nightmares is Ash/Kaidan, depending who was left behind in Virmire. 

But anyway, for me the kid in the dreams is not even the kid Shepard saw. As I said, the kid is a metaphor. The problem is the kid as a metaphor is not as strong as whoever could fill that role (Ash/Kaidan, even Wrex is he die on Virmire... hell, even Saren could have been awesome!).

[SKAR]

It does matter. Not everyone sees the same event as traumatic, or in the same degree, so the reactions are different. Not everyone react to the same even in the same way.

but they react.

[Laughing_Man]

The fact that Asari can naturally live for about 1000 years, does not necessarily mean that age 10 for humans equal age 100 for Asari.

 

They are Aliens. For all you know when they transform from the maiden stage to matron stage they do so inside a chrysalis like a butterfly.

 

The speed of their development and relative life cycles are completely different than everything we know from humans, hell half of their physiology might be entirely different to accommodate a 1000 year life span. 

[Iakus]

BG doesn't deserve respect because Bioware polished it into BG2 and NWN doesn't deserve respect because it led to HoTU or eventually MoTB in the hands of Obsidian.

BG and NWN do deserve respect for being so very moddable though.  Players were free to polish and add their own content.

[Han Shot First]

It should also be noted that Liara is not always the most reliable source on her race as her information sometimes seems odds with other sources and, well, general observations. An example of this how she claims that male and female no real meaning to them despite the fact that the asari is considered a mono-gender race, refer to each other by feminine pronouns only, primarily have feminine titles such as huntress, matriarch, and also usually refer to their offspring as daughters.

 

That's another bit of dialogue that often is misunderstood or misquoted by fans. If I had a dollar for every time someone on this forum has said that Liara claimed the Asari don't have a biological sex, I'd be now living in a seaside mansion on my own private island. That's not what she says.

 

You're right that the use of feminine pronouns and words to describe themselves doesn't really jive with a mindset where concepts like gender identity are meaningless. I suppose you could fan w@nk the feminine pronouns and such as being a byproduct of inexact translation by the universal translators.